The coefficient is currently listed as 0.1357, which matches the old 1.5 / 3.5 / 3 * 0.95 formula, so it's probably now as you say, 1.5 / 3.5 / 2 * 0.95 = 0.20357. As far as I know, Zaldinar hasn't done any testing to verify the Nova coefficient or find its cap; I may try some myself tonight.
If this coefficient were correct, damage for a Frost mage with +1800 damage would be ~841 damage (1682 on a crit).
Interestingly, I believe this means a Frost mage will deal more damage with a Frost Nova than he will with an Arcane Explosion.
Frost nova has extremely low scaling, check the TTT. It's a -80% penalty for being, well, a frost nova. AoE root. Whatever.
So, it's ~4.3%, coming from 1.5/3.5 (instant) * 1/2 (AoE) * 0.2 (80% penalty), from a check I did in ... 2.2 or 2.3 or so.
There might be another 0.9 or 0.95 modifier for being a root/CC/whatever, the numbers were to small to say it with certainty. But it's definately 4-4.3%
That was for the max rank version, didn't check downranked ones.
Here's another look at the increases to base damage and mana cost, with Warlock spells added to the list.
- On Fireball I included one DOT tick
- On Pyroblast I included the whole DOT
- For the ratios, I compared them as 1 + % increase:1 + % increase (Fireball increases to 137.43% current damage and 154.12% current mana)
- On Seed of Corruption, I included only the AOE damage (nobody cares about the DD)
- A few Warlock spells are missing mana values, so they only got damage numbers
Base Damage Increase (Nukes, higher is better)
73.81%: Curse of Doom
37.43%: Fireball
36.81%: Arcane Blast
36.11%: Arcane Missiles
34.48%: Fire Blast
33.12%: Frostbolt
31.86%: Soul Fire
31.54%: Immolate
31.33%: Incinerate
28.57%: Siphon Life
28.32%: Curse of Agony
27.61%: Ice Lance
26.85%: Shadow Bolt
26.81%: Pyroblast
26.78%: Searing Pain
23.15%: Drain Life
20.00%: Corruption
8.11%: Scorch
Mana Cost Increase (Nukes, lower is better)
12.70%: Siphon Life
20.00%: Ice Lance
38.89%: Scorch
40.00%: Pyroblast
49.46%: Fire Blast
53.03%: Frostbolt
53.38%: Arcane Missiles
54.12%: Fireball
63.53%: Drain Life
65.85%: Searing Pain
70.24%: Shadow Bolt
71.88%: Arcane Blast
73.24%: Incinerate
73.60%: Soul Fire
75.28%: Immolate
75.68%: Corruption
77.36%: Curse of Agony
Base Damage:Mana Cost Ratio (Nukes, higher is better)
1.14:1.00: Siphon Life
1.06:1.00: Ice Lance
1.00:1.10: Pyroblast
1.00:1.11: Fire Blast
1.00:1.12: Fireball
1.00:1.13: Arcane Missiles
1.00:1.15: Frostbolt
1.00:1.26: Arcane Blast
1.00:1.28: Scorch
1.00:1.31: Searing Pain
1.00:1.32: Soul Fire
1.00:1.32: Incinerate
1.00:1.33: Immolate
1.00:1.33: Drain Life
1.00:1.34: Shadow Bolt
1.00:1.38: Curse of Agony
1.00:1.46: Corruption
Base Damage Increase (AOE, higher is better)
266.20%: Frost Nova
82.96%: Flamestrike
70.15%: Blast Wave
69.14%: Cone of Cold
61.90%: Dragon's Breath
60.07%: Rain of Fire
47.08%: Seed of Corruption
46.67%: Hellfire
42.86%: Arcane Explosion
37.67%: Blizzard
Mana Cost Increase (AOE, lower is better)
37.84%: Frost Nova
50.00%: Blast Wave
50.00%: Dragon's Breath
50.46%: Arcane Explosion
56.23%: Blizzard
62.02%: Cone of Cold
66.38%: Flamestrike
69.59%: Rain of Fire
72.90%: Seed of Corruption
Base Damage:Mana Cost Ratio (AOE, higher is better)
2.66:1.00: Frost Nova
1.13:1.00: Blast Wave
1.10:1.00: Flamestrike
1.08:1.00: Dragon's Breath
1.04:1.00: Cone of Cold
1.00:1.05: Arcane Explosion
1.00:1.06: Rain of Fire
1.00:1.13: Blizzard
1.00:1.18: Seed of Corruption
Notes
- Contents may shift in transit.
- Mage spells generally concentrated at the tops of the lists, Warlock spells at the bottom. Attempting to do some of the rebalancing at the base damage level?
- Warlock spells consistently gaining much higher mana cost increases. Compensating for the addition of spirit regen to keep them life tapping?
Thanks for the info lhiv, although arn't those values rather moot without more info on scalling?
They're only part of the picture, yes, but they are at least part of it, which we'll need to put together with the scaling data once we have that. I find the mana cost increases particular interesting; I had assumed that part of Blizzard's plan was to reduce the Warlock dependency on Life Tap, which would smooth out the DPS scaling the two classes receive from getting mana from external sources. This may not be the case, with their spell costs skyrocketing quite a bit faster than ours -- Blizzard may be aiming for something close to zero-sum by increasing regen but increasing costs.
- Mage spells generally concentrated at the tops of the lists, Warlock spells at the bottom. Attempting to do some of the rebalancing at the base damage level?
Don't forget that ISB is also nerfed by 5%, and the damage multipliers for destro are only found in KS and EF.
- Warlock spells consistently gaining much higher mana cost increases. Compensating for the addition of spirit regen to keep them life tapping?
Over done IMO. Even with spirit change, locks will be life tapping MORE..not less. Especially with the VT nerf. They will be paying a lot more in mana for less base line damage. I think we can assume life tap isn't getting nerfed...it'll be as necessary as ever. Am i reading that right? shadow bolt is going up to 750 mana! I think Vanilla to TBC saw SB go up from 330 to 440. 440 to 750 is a huge jump!
- Scorch, Blizzard are significant outliers.
Noted. makes no sense. why even put up max rank scorch if you are already dealing with Burnout? also Curse of Doom is an interesting outlier as well....maybe they plan to nerf the 200% damage coefficient?
- Frost Nova is an entertaining outlier.
Looking like a pretty favorable review for mages. It would be interesting to compare these number to boomkins and elementals shamans when they come out as well, to see if the ~30-50% increase in spell costs is standard. Spell cost on average is going up 50%, so assume that at 80 you will have 50% more mana..so about 17-19k I would think would be common. If your average spell goes up 70%...you are losing ground.
Don't forget that ISB is also nerfed by 5%, and the damage multipliers for destro are only found in KS and EF.
Aye, and while there's a lot of debate about this among warlocks, I suspect that many will find Demonic Sacrifice to be less attractive due to the 5-point requirement that is worthless to them (previously I believe only 1 point was truly wasted), and the addition of a couple of talents that encourage switching schools during a single fight.
Noted. makes no sense. why even put up max rank scorch if you are already dealing with Burnout? also Curse of Doom is an interesting outlier as well....maybe they plan to nerf the 200% damage coefficient?
Yeah, I should have commented on CoD. I would be surprised if they nerfed the coefficient, as it's already been cut in half. This also rather unhappily might signal that they don't plan to fix the way it works with Shadow Mastery/Amp Curse (badly).
Looking like a pretty favorable review for mages. It would be interesting to compare these number to boomkins and elementals shamans when they come out as well, to see if the ~30-50% increase in spell costs is standard. Spell cost on average is going up 50%, so assume that at 80 you will have 50% more mana..so about 17-19k I would think would be common. If your average spell goes up 70%...you are losing ground.
Well, remember, even if they gain only 30 mana/sec while casting, that's going to knock 75 damage off the cost of an unhasted Shadow Bolt. And that reduces the increase to about 52.38%, right in line with the Mage increases. That's only if you're comparing level 70 ranks under current mechanics to level 80 ranks under new mechanics, though.
A lot of new rank data for other classes is in the general WotLK info thread here on EJ, so I could add shammy/boomkin data now, but I'm frankly not familiar with what they'd really use for DPS.
Pretty sure boomkins use wrath and starfire... i'm honestly not sure if its worth it for them to keep moonfire DoT up, as I don't know the co-efficints on the DoT.
List it all, they'll know which spells matter.
On the subject of moonkins... anyone know anything more about typhoon? I picture it to be like the lurker's spout ability. Given the cooldown, I expect it to be poweful. And of course, there is the knockback component.
A 50% mana increase is more on the lines of 15-16k for non arcane mage. 10k raid buffed is fairly typical on live for frost or fire.
Arcane mages depending on how crazy they are about int gems could see mana pools in the 18-20k range, in comparison. I've seen a handful of arcanists on live pushing 14k mana pools, but those were pretty extreme cases. 12-13k raid buffed is more typical.
Mana regen is the big question here. I was pushing 430 mp/5 in combat as an arcanist on live fully raidbuffed. (700+ ooc.) 200ish mp/5 in combat is doable for fire and frosties who choose to use mage armor.
Assuming warlock regen behaves exactly the same way as mage regen with their new armor, the devs almost have to increase spell costs asymmetrically in order to keep life tap relevant. And it seems pretty clear our gear is being homogenized so both locks and mages are going to be packing similar amounts of int and spirit down the line.
as an arcane I push 16k fully raid buffed in fairly shoddy gear. I've stopped gearing for int now as its becoming difficult to use all my mana in most fights (I do focus on 10-mans, as i've said before).
And no, this is no longer my main. I re-rolled gnome.
It might be different in 10 mans, I could see gearing for more int there. I refuse to do ZA as an arcanist because of mana issues and would respec specifically for timed runs in there.
In 25 mans arcanists will tend to gear more for damage and run mana pools in the 12-13k range.
A lot of new rank data for other classes is in the general WotLK info thread here on EJ, so I could add shammy/boomkin data now, but I'm frankly not familiar with what they'd really use for DPS.
Chain Lightning- 1.5s cast, 6s CD, used sometimes as mana dump, damage gains currently debated due to spell delay/queue issues
Chain Lightning 6 : 760 mana, 786 average damage, ~64% scaling
Chain Lightning 8 - 1695 mana, 1042 average damage
+128%/123% cost for shaman, +50% for druids. Seems odd, but shaman don't even have their new talents yet, and a lot of numbers could be random placeholders.
It's the first alpha. It's supposed to be a big construction yard. And I really wouldn't want to read too much into the base damage of spells.
Currently, base Arcane Blast is one of the most efficient nukes around... it only grows inefficient when you consider the AB debuffs.
Current: 668-772 damage for 195 mana at 70, which gives it a base damage:mana ratio of 3.69:1.00... ridiculously efficient.
At level 80: 912-1058 damage for 335 mana, which is a base mana:damage ratio of 2.94:1.00... less efficient.
This wouldn't be a concern except that that decrease in efficiency is greatly magnified for AB spam. Max rank AB spam has an efficiency ratio of 1.136 at level 70, which is hard to justify using without 2T5 to push it over the edge. At level 80, max rank AB spam would have an efficiency ratio of 0.905, which is so ridiculous even a 2T5 type bonus wouldn't save it.
I get the impression that Blizzard doesn't want AB spam to be viable for any prolonged period of time and that they want to encourage cycles. Of course, this assumes they get their shit together regarding debuff application.
Soul, if this netherwind business works out for AM, AB spamming is dead as the dodo bird and will only occur when you want to blow cooldowns. It's gonna be all AM and instant cast fireballs otherwise, maybe the occasional arcane barrage.
You'll spam AB when you blow AP and get heroism and that's about it.
If the AM business does not work out...arcane is pretty well screwed in pve, is my read.
Chain Lightning- 1.5s cast, 6s CD, used sometimes as mana dump, damage gains currently debated due to spell delay/queue issues
Chain Lightning 6 : 760 mana, 786 average damage, ~64% scaling
Chain Lightning 8 - 1695 mana, 1042 average damage
+128%/123% cost for shaman, +50% for druids. Seems odd, but shaman don't even have their new talents yet, and a lot of numbers could be random placeholders.
It's the first alpha. It's supposed to be a big construction yard. And I really wouldn't want to read too much into the base damage of spells.
WOW lol. If true, I guess signs are pointing to them getting a 'spirit' talent/ability too. I know mana spring/tide saw a huge jump, but it hardly offsets a 123% spell cost rise.
Arcane Barrage (Rank 3, Level 80, 610 mana, instant, 3 sec cooldown) - "Launches several missiles at the enemy target, causing 936-1145 Arcane damage." (Arcane)
Interesting possibilities from the little information we have thus far. The above from Wikidot.com has me wondering whether the description is describing the total base damage, or perhaps the damage of a single volley?
I saw the footage from the private server posted previously in this thread. However I question the accuracy of that portrayal not knowing what if any changes were made to it.
Last edited by Kopalec : 05/31/08 at 5:14 AM.
Reason: incorrect link
Although I haven't seen anything beyond the description of the spell, I think that the damage listed is the total damage. I'd have to guess that the way it animates is a few arcane missile looking bolts that all hit at (or at about) the same time hence the description of the spell. I doubt that it does multiple hits worth of damage based on the damage that it does along with the mana cost.
According to the pictures of the new spell ranks on the wikidot site, it has a little more damage than the new rank of fire blast. It seems unreasonable that this talent would launch two or three bolts that all cause that amount of damage. That would be in the neighborhood of two to three thousand damage before factoring in crit that could be dealt every three seconds. It seems unreasonable from a PvP perspective for the talent to be that powerful.
Agreed, that amount of instant damage seems unreasonable by current standards. However I'm in agreement with Manly's assertion that the 51 talents need to be impressive to warrant using them over Hybrid spec's. Perhaps they increase the cooldown, lower the base damage, or increase the mana cost. If you remember the original form of Prayer of Mending, then something like this might actually go live before changes are made.
On a slightly different tangent, was there ever given a reason behind AM's ability to have an increased chance to proc effects? Is it mainly due to the channel? I ask because "Launches several missiles" sounds similar to volleys like AM. If indeed Arcane barrage does cast in a like manner, would the fact that it is an instant cast preclude it from receiving the same bonus?
The reasoning for AM is because of a change a while back where it allowed AM to proc on hit spell effects with each volley rather than just with the initial cast and people are assuming this is a possibility. Based on the wording of the talent though I doubt it will have a chance per volley and will only have a chance when the spell is initially cast.
Nota, to be more specific, I'm aware of the mechanics that allow AM to have a higher proc chance per cast. I'm asking if it was clear why Blizzard decided to give AM this ability to begin with?
It's a long shot for sure, but the idea of AM / ABar rotations, both having increased chance to proc Netherwind Presence. Well that certainly sounds fun.
My bad, I'm really tired and am probably understanding things wrong when I first read them. I'm assuming it has to do with AM being a channeled nuke rather than a channeled DoT so they felt on hit effects should probably act like that. I don't think anyone really knows why but since each volley has a chance to be fully resisted they probably felt that each volley should count as a new cast within the cast.
I have to disagree that the amount of burst seems like an unreasonable amount of burst. Sure it seems high at first but when you factor in what you have to give up to get it I think it actually seems just only decent. Maybe it's just because I'm looking at it from a primarily pvp standpoint but it doesn't look all that special to me. I'm currently looking at a 55/16/0 build for pvp but it doesn't really look like it would be at all overwhelmingly powerful in pvp with the current knowledge we have of wotlk.
ABar only hits once that I can see. The graphic for the cast is only 1, cool-looking, volley.
I would assume NP procs per wave on AM, otherwise the entire arcane tree simply won't be able to compete in PvE.
AB's place in PvE ishard to see right now... the huge mana efficiency of unramped AB might make it viable to use on a NW proc after AMs but with 11 points in either fire or frost, the potential crit damage of a fireball or frostbolt FAR out-weighs the mana saved on an AB...
It really does look as though the spell will be left in the dirt.
can someone compare some cycles for me?
(AM/AB) with fireball on NP procs (60/11/0), assuming AM procs per wave
AM spammed with fireball on NP procs, same spec
I'm quite sure AM/AB cycle will still be better, with ramped AB... thats the only use I can see of it right now. If the DPS of that cycle is within 5-10% of any other cycle it -MAY- draw even from the added damage of ABar on mobile phases.
Nota, to be more specific, I'm aware of the mechanics that allow AM to have a higher proc chance per cast. I'm asking if it was clear why Blizzard decided to give AM this ability to begin with?
It's a long shot for sure, but the idea of AM / ABar rotations, both having increased chance to proc Netherwind Presence. Well that certainly sounds fun.
That's the only spell I know of that works this way.
Normal nukes are 1 spell with a cast time and an effect. Mind Flay and Drains are channeled DoTs.
They all involve only 1 spell cast, while AM involves 6 spell casts.
Although I haven't seen anything beyond the description of the spell, I think that the damage listed is the total damage. I'd have to guess that the way it animates is a few arcane missile looking bolts that all hit at (or at about) the same time hence the description of the spell. I doubt that it does multiple hits worth of damage based on the damage that it does along with the mana cost.
According to the pictures of the new spell ranks on the wikidot site, it has a little more damage than the new rank of fire blast. It seems unreasonable that this talent would launch two or three bolts that all cause that amount of damage. That would be in the neighborhood of two to three thousand damage before factoring in crit that could be dealt every three seconds. It seems unreasonable from a PvP perspective for the talent to be that powerful.
Arcane Barrage is a single hit with a short travelling time. Think Ice Lance with a 3s cooldown.
From new patch, i only managed to find this change on forums for now:
Mage
Invisibility countdown changed to 3 seconds
DK change that concerns us:
Unholy
(NEW) Ebon Plaguebringer: Tier 8, effect: Whenever an enemy is infected by a stack of 3 of your diseases, they also become infected by Ebon Plague, which increases their vulnerability to magic damage by 3/6/9/12/15% for 15 sec.
05/30/08, 6:42 PM
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