So I've been watching this thread for a while, and I like what I see, so I decided to give my own input. I was speculating with Frostfire Bolt, so I tried it on a few Private Servers and found that just about every fire and frost talent effected it. Seeing this, I realized that Frostfire bolt is an experiment in synergy, if you can get the right combination of fire and frost specs, you can reach an optimum dps for it, and maybe it'll be greater then fireball and frostbolt specs. So I created a spreadsheet with many options, and a ton of calculations (mainly to just help me get to the overall result) and I was surprised to find that, according to my calculations, a 0/34/37 spec has the highest spec out of any mage spec at lvl 80. I'll upload the spreadsheet here, tell me what you think, and edit it please if you find a mistake, I'm a big theorycrafter, but I tend to make little mistakes.
So I've been watching this thread for a while, and I like what I see, so I decided to give my own input. I was speculating with Frostfire Bolt, so I tried it on a few Private Servers and found that just about every fire and frost talent effected it.
OK, so here's my theory. If your testing has proven otherwise, please let me know.
Fire Talents
Improved Fireball: No effect.
Impact: Always works.
Ignite: Always works, unless target is Fire-immune.
Flamethrowing: Always works. (1)
Burning Soul: Always works. (2)
Improved Scorch: Debuff works only when dealing Fire damage.
Master of Elements: Always works.
Playing With Fire: Always works (affects all spells anyway). (3)
Critical Mass: Always works.
Fire Power: Always works. (3)
Pyromaniac: Always works. (4)
Combustion: Works only when dealing Fire damage.
Molten Fury: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Empowered Fireball: No effect.
Frost Talents
Improved Frostbolt: No effect.
Elemental Precision: Always works. (4)
Ice Shards: Always works. (5)
Frostbite: Always works.
Permafrost: Always works.
Piercing Ice: Always works. (3)
Arctic Reach: Always works (1)
Frost Channeling: Always works. (2, 4)
Shatter: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Winter's Chill: Always benefits from debuff, but only stacks debuff when dealing Frost damage.
Arctic Winds: Only works when dealing Frost damage. (3)
Empowered Frostbolt: No effect.
Notes
1) Combination of Flame Throwing and Arctic Reach result in (30 * 1.2 + 6 = 42 yard range) or ((30 + 6) * 1.2 = 43.2 yard range)?
2) Combination of Burning Soul and Frost Channeling result in 0.9 * 0.9 = 81% threat?
3) Piercing Ice + Fire Power = +16.6% dmg. Add PWF and you get +20.098% dmg. Add Arctic Winds when dealing Frost damage and you get +26.1029% dmg.
4) Combination of Frost Channeling, Elemental Precision, and Pyromaniac result in 0.85 * 0.97 * 0.97 = 79.9765% mana cost?
5) Frostfire Bolt crits with Ice Shards and Ignite would total 280% as long as target is not immune to Fire.
I coded up a Winter's Grasp uptime simulator. I've made the following assumptions:
-10% chance to apply debuff
-5 second debuff duration
-.5 second frostbolt flight time
-.1 second latency
-All mages in the raid have the same haste (not accurate, but the data set gets way to big with every combination of haste)
I simulate 20 hours of casting for every uptime value. At 30k-60k casts per mage I'm getting results consistent to a 10th of a percent. I've randomized each mage's position in the initial cast sequence. I've also added 2,4,6 haste to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th mages such that their relative cast positions in the sequence change over time.
Some interesting data points:
-At ~700 haste and again at ~1500 haste uptime spikes big time. (Heroism + IV + Skull + 300 PasHaste = ~1600 haste)
-Other than that, haste does not appear to increase WG uptime much. (Crazy!! Totally thought uptime would it scale linearly with haste.)
-The small spikes are not noise. Most prominently with 2, 3, and 4 mages there is a ~3% uptime spike at 550 haste.
A few conclusions:
1. Cooldown stacking should be coordinated across all WG-stacking and shatter specced mages to take advantage of increased WG uptime.
2. mages w/ ~300 passive haste add:
3. Outside of cooldown stacking and as currently implemented we're looking at ~50% uptime with 3 mages which constitutes a 25% crit chance buff to shatter specced mages. That plus WC and normal crit = ~70% crit. [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight] is looking pretty good at that point.
4. Not obvious from the data because I tuned the sample set to avoid repeated simultaneous casts, but staggered casts boost uptime by around 10% @ 2 mages over consistently simultaneous casts.
This raises a few questions.
1. When the WotLK talent trees are released, at what point is an elemental mage chucking fireballs with shatter worth more dmg than another WG stacking deep frost mage? Free ignite ticks anyone?
2. What is causing the spikes at 400 and 550 haste for 2,3, and 4 mages?
Do we know that ice lance can't proc WG and if it can did you account for it? I would assume it can based on the wording of the talent but I'm not sure. If ice lance can proc WG while WG is already up then that is why I was suggesting 0/33/38 would become a great alternative if Ffb uses talents from both the fire tree and frost tree at the same time. If ice lance can proc it then try accounting for the uptime then when 4 mages are present with two of them being deep frost and using frostbolt + ice lance to keep WG up and 2 of the mages using ffb assuming ffb will also proc it.
OK, so here's my theory. If your testing has proven otherwise, please let me know.
Fire Talents
Improved Fireball: No effect.
Impact: Always works.
Ignite: Always works, unless target is Fire-immune.
Flamethrowing: Always works. (1)
Burning Soul: Always works. (2)
Improved Scorch: Debuff works only when dealing Fire damage.
Master of Elements: Always works.
Playing With Fire: Always works (affects all spells anyway). (3)
Critical Mass: Always works.
Fire Power: Always works. (3)
Pyromaniac: Always works. (4)
Combustion: Works only when dealing Fire damage.
Molten Fury: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Empowered Fireball: No effect.
Frost Talents
Improved Frostbolt: No effect.
Elemental Precision: Always works. (4)
Ice Shards: Always works. (5)
Frostbite: Always works.
Permafrost: Always works.
Piercing Ice: Always works. (3)
Arctic Reach: Always works (1)
Frost Channeling: Always works. (2, 4)
Shatter: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Winter's Chill: Always benefits from debuff, but only stacks debuff when dealing Frost damage.
Arctic Winds: Only works when dealing Frost damage. (3)
Empowered Frostbolt: No effect.
Notes
1) Combination of Flame Throwing and Arctic Reach result in (30 * 1.2 + 6 = 42 yard range) or ((30 + 6) * 1.2 = 43.2 yard range)?
2) Combination of Burning Soul and Frost Channeling result in 0.9 * 0.9 = 81% threat?
3) Piercing Ice + Fire Power = +16.6% dmg. Add PWF and you get +20.098% dmg. Add Arctic Winds when dealing Frost damage and you get +26.1029% dmg.
4) Combination of Frost Channeling, Elemental Precision, and Pyromaniac result in 0.85 * 0.97 * 0.97 = 79.9765% mana cost?
5) Frostfire Bolt crits with Ice Shards and Ignite would total 280% as long as target is not immune to Fire.
First of all, I've always been a huge fan man, I use your Theorycraft-o-matic all the time, and I find your ideas very insightful.
But on to business; first of all, I don't think Arctic Reach effects it, as it only quotes specific spells, not "frost spells". The way I tested it, and came to conclude is anything that specifically says "frost spell" or "fire spell" effects it, so not "fire damage" and "frost damage", but specifically with Arctic Reach doesn't mention it, so unless they add it to the talent, its just Flame Throwing.
Edit: Any talent that has the word spell in it effects it. Frostfire Bolt is considered both a "Frost Spell" and a "Fire Spell", but in addition it is a "Damage Spell" as well. Meaning any talent that states "Frost Spell", "Frost Damage Spell", "Fire Spell", or "Fire Damage Spell" will effect it completely. Because of this, I believe you are wrong when it comes to Winter's Chill in terms of stacking it; it says "frost damage spell" which should mean you can stack it up with it. Also, because of that, I believe that combustion with get procced by it as well, I see no reason why not as it says "fire damage spell". In addition, this one is a little iffy, but I think even ignite would proc off of a frost damage Ffb, but that one I'm not so sure of, as the wording, and the actual effect are a little confusing with Ffb.
With most of your notes, those were the things I was worried about making mistakes, mainly, whether or not those questionable things are additive or multiplicative. For example, would Burning Soul and Frost Channeling (assuming they stack) be multiplicative to be 81% threat, or additive to be 80% threat. With all the "increases blank damage done by X%" talents, I made them all additive, so Piercing Ice + Fire Power + 4% from Molten Fury + PWF would be 23% more damage the way I did it. The same thing happened with all the mana reduction talents, MoE and Clearcasting is obviously additive because of its nature, but I assumed Frost Channeling, Elemental Precision, and Pyromaniac would be additive to 21% less mana.
Also, with the Crit damage, I thought that Ice Shards was additive, making normal 150% crits 250% crits, so 1.4 of 250% would be 350%. Correct me if I'm wrong however. Also, when I made the Burnout Ffb spec, the crits were 150%+100%+25%*1.4 = 385%.
My biggest question is whether or not, by bug or on purpose, the "Elemental" talents work double on it, specifically MoE and Elemental Precision. If they effect the spell twice (which they probably won't), that would make the spell all the more better, 60% mana back on crits, less spell hit needed, and even less mana spent. If it ends up working, it'll only make it better, it ends up being the most mana efficient spell for Mages with the right talents.
Edit: Oh, you forgot some Talents that effect or don't effect it:
Fire:
Hot streak - Always works.
World of Flames - Always works. (assuming some kind of aoe inscription if it was made for Ffb)
Burnout - Always works.
Frost:
Winter's Grasp - Always works.
Chilled to the Bone - No effect.
Also, with the Crit damage, I thought that Ice Shards was additive, making normal 150% crits 250% crits, so 1.4 of 250% would be 350%. Correct me if I'm wrong however. Also, when I made the Burnout Ffb spec, the crits were 150%+100%+25%*1.4 = 385%.
The +100% of Ice Shards affect the bonus damage (ie the 50% you gain from the crit without any talent) , it's the same for burnout or spellpower (which then add up).
With Ice shards and Burnout you will get 100+50*(1+100/100+25/100)=212.5% crit which is *1.4 for ignite , 297.5% total.
The +100% of Ice Shards affect the bonus damage (ie the 50% you gain from the crit without any talent) , it's the same for burnout or spellpower (which then add up).
With Ice shards and Burnout you will get 100+50*(1+100/100+25/100)=212.5% crit which is *1.4 for ignite , 297.5% total.
Ah, so my first mistake, I see you are right, and I have corrected it on my spreadsheet, maybe after a few more edits I will reupload it with the fixes. I changed the critical bonus formula, and overall, its reduced the dps of all specs by about 200-300, the order of the specs changed slightly, fire spec is now second to last, and the Water ele spec caught up to the WG/MF Spec, they are about 20 dps off from each other now. Please look at the spreadsheet and tell me any other mistakes you see I made, I want this thing to be perfect.
Please look at the spreadsheet and tell me any other mistakes you see I made, I want this thing to be perfect.
How do you take Winter's Grasp into account ? fixed % uptime? Maybe you could add some synergy between multiple mages (1-4), I think the Frostfire spec without WE will scale a lot faster with multiple mages.
How do you take Winter's Grasp into account ? fixed % uptime? Maybe you could add some synergy between multiple mages (1-4), I think the Frostfire spec without WE will scale a lot faster with multiple mages.
Ya, I realized a moment ago that I might have made a mistake with WG. I made it a fixed % uptime (1/6 the time with Frostfire Bolt, 1/5 the time with Frostbolt). My mistake is probably with the problem of 5 second duration with a 3 second cast, meaning I would only have time for 1 Frostfire bolt and 1 Icelance when WG procs, and I didn't take that into account. I didn't think about multiple mages, but I don't think that would be too hard to code in there, if someone wants to do that, be my guest. But ya, multiple mages for WG would probably make the WG/MF spec dps go up higher then the WE Ffb spec.
I still struggle to see the benefit of combustion on this spec given the ~80%+ crit chance that it will have with WG up (4 FfB mages gives it significant uptime). I'd hate to blow combustion and have 3 spells eat it that all would have crit anyway.
Can someone do the math for dropping combustion versus another point in pyromaniac or PWF?
Regarding the frost part of the spell proccing ignite: It most likely will proc it, but since ignite is fire damage and the spell did frost damage because the mob was fire resistant/immune, the ignite will suffer to those resistances/immunities as well.
last point: is crit calculated as the spell leaves your hand or as it lands on the target? If its when it leaves your hand, you could possibly get 2x FfB into 1 WG proc, given the flight time of the spell that proc'd it allowing you to get half a cast done before its even proc'd. Add a little haste to be sure, mind.
With N mages spamming 3 sec cast Frostfire bolt with 10% chance to proc a 5 sec duration WG (I removed Icy veins and Skull and Ice lance from my simulator)
The % uptime of WG is:
But If you want more accurate numbers (like the ones I could get from my simulator adding Icy veins or Skull) I doubt you would be able to do it on a spreadsheet. But those numbers are accurate enough to give us a estimation of the best frostfire spec.
last point: is crit calculated as the spell leaves your hand or as it lands on the target? If its when it leaves your hand, you could possibly get 2x FfB into 1 WG proc, given the flight time of the spell that proc'd it allowing you to get half a cast done before its even proc'd. Add a little haste to be sure, mind.
The crit is calculated when the spell leaves your hand (same thing for spell reflection, allowing double reflection like icelance + frostbolt)
I still struggle to see the benefit of combustion on this spec given the ~80%+ crit chance that it will have with WG up (4 FfB mages gives it significant uptime). I'd hate to blow combustion and have 3 spells eat it that all would have crit anyway.
Can someone do the math for dropping combustion versus another point in pyromaniac or PWF?
Regarding the frost part of the spell proccing ignite: It most likely will proc it, but since ignite is fire damage and the spell did frost damage because the mob was fire resistant/immune, the ignite will suffer to those resistances/immunities as well.
last point: is crit calculated as the spell leaves your hand or as it lands on the target? If its when it leaves your hand, you could possibly get 2x FfB into 1 WG proc, given the flight time of the spell that proc'd it allowing you to get half a cast done before its even proc'd. Add a little haste to be sure, mind.
* Crits are calculated on cast. Shatter combos wouldn't work otherwise.
* Combustion
I've got a little sheet to simulate the effect of combustion. It calculates the crits it adds depending on your current crit chance.
0% - 3. 10% - 2.37. 20% - 1.98. 30% - 1.52. 40% - 1.24. 50% - 1.02.
60% - 0.84. 70% - 0.68. 80% - 0.50. 90% - 0.27. 100% - 0.
So, at ~80% crit it'll add half a crit. Seing that you can do ~60 casts in 3 minutes, it adds 0.5/60=0.83% crit.
If you use combustion right when WG falls off, you can increase it's value a bit.
Also, it guarantees you 3 crits during trinket/pots/IV which also increases its value.
But shatter builds with high WG uptime makes combustion perform rather poorly.
I'd probably still take it over Pyromaniac/PWF for those days when WG doesn't want to proc and you want the crits for your cooldowns.
The question that follows then would be:
If combustion is mediocre, could you scrap molten fury as well and get the Water Elemental?
I doubt you would be able to do it on a spreadsheet. But those numbers are accurate enough to give us a estimation of the best frostfire spec.
This sentence right here is why I've held off on the theorycraft of my 0/33/38 build. Until we're able to test out the spells and talents for ourselves there's just too many variables I think to accurately predict how the build will function. I don't know if it's even possible to accurately predict how the 0/33/38 and 10/0/61 builds will interact until we're able to do some actual testing. About the only thing I can tell is that the uptime for WG will be about 60%, a little less if I'm correct, with 4 mages when 2 of them are 0/33/38 using ffb and scorch when needed and 2 of them are 10/0/61 using frostbolt and ice lance to maintain WG. I started to work on the math for this but as I kept adding more to it I realized that the more I added from a realistic possibility the more messed up it became. When I started putting in haste procs from crits I decided to just quit. Improved moonkin really jacked me up when trying to predict dps and so now I'll just leave it alone until it can be tested. I don't think any spreadsheet right now will be able to give us what we're looking for at the moment. Since I don't know how much haste rating is needed for a 1% decrease in cast time and haste is already screwing with me enough, I'm not even going to bother trying to predict this anymore.
Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe
I still struggle to see the benefit of combustion on this spec given the ~80%+ crit chance that it will have with WG up (4 FfB mages gives it significant uptime). I'd hate to blow combustion and have 3 spells eat it that all would have crit anyway.
Can someone do the math for dropping combustion versus another point in pyromaniac or PWF?
Regarding the frost part of the spell proccing ignite: It most likely will proc it, but since ignite is fire damage and the spell did frost damage because the mob was fire resistant/immune, the ignite will suffer to those resistances/immunities as well.
last point: is crit calculated as the spell leaves your hand or as it lands on the target? If its when it leaves your hand, you could possibly get 2x FfB into 1 WG proc, given the flight time of the spell that proc'd it allowing you to get half a cast done before its even proc'd. Add a little haste to be sure, mind.
To tell you the truth I don't know either if combustion will be worth giving up the 3% damage from playing with fire but I weighed it as 3% damage from playing with fire and 1% crit from pyromanic vs. 6% crit from critical mass and combustion. I just went with what felt right at the time but it's too early to tell without any hard testing.
When I was building War Pirate :: Talent tree Mage I wasn't sure about how it would all interact and so I just went with max crit since that's where the majority of the damage is going to be coming from. Whether or not that's the best route to take though is still too early to tell and I'm beginning to think that playing with fire may be more useful in the end.
I still think WG is in for another nerf before it goes live. in its current form its effectively 8% crit increase to 1 mage for 2 points. Even without the synergy, theres no other tallent that gives that much crit per point. I would expect it to become a 5 point tallent at least (2% proc chance per point). To avoid bloating, one of the more 'pure frost' tallents can be trimmed to only 2 points for full effect (arctic winds, perhaps).
Right now though, I can see a good caster group being Moonkin, shammy + 3FfB mages. Haste procs + heroism + 6% bonus spell hit (ToW + iFF) +8% spell crit, should give lots of WG uptime (~50% with the haste) along with massive crit rate.
Also, thanks for the numbers on combustion. Since you mentioned pyro, I haven't seen a FfB build yet that actually has pyro/BW.
Actually its 8% crit increase for 9 points - 7 more for shatter and its prerequisite talent (you would be unlikely to take shatter otherwise if you were doing predominantly group, let alone raid content).
As an aside, this is a key part of the concern about bloating for frost mages, as they already have few points to spend in other trees, before getting other raid useful talents like improved blizzard.
I wouldn't be surprised if WG gets nerfed before it goes live but considering that the rest of the fire and frost trees are looking rather dismal I think it would make sense for it to go live as is. Chilled to the bone, deep freeze, hot streak, living bomb, and fiery payback are all mediocre at best. Burnout and brain freeze are the only other talents that are decently useful and I'm not so sure about brain freeze. Improved water elemental just had me going "WTF is this supposed to do?" 30% more hp means it's still going to be 2 shotted, 30% more mp means it's still going to go oom before it's duration is up but that it's duration is increased by 67%. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with that type of scaling?
I will admit that chilled to the bone is useful for it's snare property though, mainly cone of cold being an aoe version of crippling poison.
Hmm.. I don't have enough experience with the WE to say if its worth dropping MF for, but If someone can show hard numbers comparing them I'd be interested. I'd also like too see if its then worth dropping pyromaniac for imp WE.
the 4 points spent between MoE and PWF are interchangeable, depending on how badly you need the mana versus that little extra damage.
3 points in frost are also free to go where-ever. I put them into imp. CoC because this build doesn't really have much AoE strength other than shatter + CoC.
so my question is; is it worth losing those few bottom points in fire for the WE? you'd need to throw a couple more fillers in frost, but I could take arctic reach without feeling too cheated on the points.
Not worth it. You're not just giving up MF but the 6% damage on your main nuke. WE isn't strong enough to make up the difference of MF and and 6% damage on your main nuke. Unless they change the scaling of its mana or the cost of waterbolt, the elemental will also go oom before its time expires so now you're just sitting there with an oom elemental doing nothing.
I would expect "Living Bomb" talent to be targettable like seed of corruption, but more like Geddon's talent from MC, after its 10 sec duration and making a small dot damage, the target would explode, stunning the target and dealing some damage to it, while doing aoe damage to nearby allies and knocking them back for 5 yards.
See this would also help fire mages in Pvp a lot as well in Pve, making people run away from their comrades not to knock them back.
I would expect "Living Bomb" talent to be targettable like seed of corruption, but more like Geddon's talent from MC, after its 10 sec duration and making a small dot damage, the target would explode, stunning the target and dealing some damage to it, while doing aoe damage to nearby allies and knocking them back for 5 yards.
See this would also help fire mages in Pvp a lot as well in Pve, making people run away from their comrades not to knock them back.
Why would you expect it to be targetable when there are movies out there showing it not to be cast on a target but on the mage itself? And where did you get the whole knockback idea let alone the 5 yards from? You just did some wishful thinking about improved SoC for mages or...?
The +100% of Ice Shards affect the bonus damage (ie the 50% you gain from the crit without any talent) , it's the same for burnout or spellpower (which then add up).
With Ice shards and Burnout you will get 100+50*(1+100/100+25/100)=212.5% crit which is *1.4 for ignite , 297.5% total.
Kurojushi -- is the Burnout talent functioning? If so, have you had an opportunity to test it? A list of non-crit and crit damage results, along with your +Damage total, would be helpful.
Also, regarding your question about additive vs multiplicative: basically, everything is multiplicative except for multiple crit damage modifiers.
So, based on your response, the list would be changed to:
Fire Talents
Improved Fireball: No effect.
Impact: Always works.
Ignite: Always works, but Fire-immune target would be immune to the Ignite.
Flamethrowing: Always works.
Burning Soul: Always works. (1)
Improved Scorch: Debuff works only when dealing Fire damage.
Master of Elements: Always works.
Playing With Fire: Always works (affects all spells anyway). (2)
Critical Mass: Always works.
Fire Power: Always works. (2)
Pyromaniac: Always works. (3)
Combustion: Always works.
Molten Fury: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Empowered Fireball: No effect.
Frost Talents
Improved Frostbolt: No effect.
Elemental Precision: Always works. (3)
Ice Shards: Always works. (4)
Frostbite: Always works.
Permafrost: Always works.
Piercing Ice: Always works. (2)
Arctic Reach: No effect.
Frost Channeling: Always works. (1, 3)
Shatter: Always works (affects all spells anyway).
Winter's Chill: Always works.
Arctic Winds: Only works when dealing Frost damage. (2)
Empowered Frostbolt: No effect.
Notes
1) Combination of Burning Soul and Frost Channeling result in 0.9 * 0.9 = 81% threat?
2) Piercing Ice + Fire Power = +16.6% dmg. Add PWF and you get +20.098% dmg. Add Arctic Winds when dealing Frost damage and you get +26.1029% dmg.
3) Combination of Frost Channeling, Elemental Precision, and Pyromaniac result in 0.85 * 0.97 * 0.97 = 79.9765% mana cost?
4) Frostfire Bolt crits with Ice Shards and Ignite would total 280% as long as target is not immune to Fire.
The question that follows then would be:
If combustion is mediocre, could you scrap molten fury as well and get the Water Elemental?
Well, two ways to look at elemental, rather more empirically than anything else.
Assume a WE currently. You raided with Frost spec some time ago, Roywyn, if I recall correctly. Last time I did, WE worked out to be between 11k and 13k damage depending on whether he was in range of a ToW& WoA totem or not. His duration increases by 67%, making it circa 18k damage per use, on a 3m CD. That's just 100dps, assuming no Cold Snap, and assuming he lives. MF depends on CD stacking to lift it beyond it's 4% average, though even modelling @ 4% you'd only have to do 2500dps to equal it. In truth, MF is a damn load more than 4%.
Or, if you want to be a little more sloppy, over a good boss the WE will represent 11% of the damage you output. That 11% gets buffed by 67%.
Question is, do you prefer the agro-less WE or do you prefer the non-AoE sensitive MF?
Hard to say. If WC does not build from Ffb, then WE loses value. WE also gives extra value-goodness when combined with Trinks. WG proc while WE out? Ass soon as your next bolt leaves, blow IV/Trink, get lovely CD-stacking goodness.
Oddly, it also seems by inference that WE specs prefer spelldamage to haste, while MF specs would prefer the opposite, relying on extra Ffbs during MF to make more profound difference as the only time-linked CD they use to compact CDs is IV.
Why would you expect it to be targetable when there are movies out there showing it not to be cast on a target but on the mage itself? And where did you get the whole knockback idea let alone the 5 yards from? You just did some wishful thinking about improved SoC for mages or...?
Yes that was wishful thinking about Living bomb, because as it looks now, its useless. Knockback effect is cool for pvp as typhoon for moonkins. Typhoon has this 5 yard knockback effect so i copied it from there.
06/03/08, 4:11 AM
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