Discerning between 7.25% and 6.5% takes a rather large sample size due to the absolute infrequency of both results. I'd be interested in confirmation, because I have always heard it as 26%/4 since release.

Also, keep in mind that the wording and mechanics of current alpha talents are neither rigorous nor final. Bringing up pyroclasm as a possibility is certainly valid, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions by comparing wording. My intuition is that AM will work on a per-missle basis until blizzard decides to use the pyroclasm solution, which may never happen but probably will.

I am not sure if you gentlemen/ladies noticed that the frost talent Winter's Grasp could make frost shatter builds very viable if it works on boss mobs... its basicaly frostbite, but without the root effect...

War Pirate :: Talent tree Mage

this is the build i was thinking about( if i shouldnt have posted it, notify me and ill delete it)

If Winter's Grasp works like I presume it works, this could mean completely crit independant gearsets for full frost raid pve speced mages... immagine all the spelldmg we could muster if we didnt have to rely on crit...

defacto 65% crit chance for frostbolts from talents with winter's graps + empowered frostbolt+ winter's chill
(Hmm, might be worth it to remove some points from shatter, since we would have seriously too high crit%)

add to that extremely mana efficient spells, clearcasting

Lets look at frostbolts:

Critical damage: +100%
Additional 10% spelldmg from gear
16% extra damage
65% chance to crit when winter's Grasp is active
8% chance to hit extra( unless elemental precision gets fixed, in which case its 7%) also when winter's grasp is active
18% reduced mana cost


and this is frostbolt alone... dont forget if you have MORE mages with this spec, they all can proc Winter's Grasp, which could result in 80% uptime easy... also 2xIV, icebarrier+shatter shield( aka over 5k absorbed damage, easy), 2x IB, 2xWE( improoved is looking serously nice!)

UNFORTUNATELY this is only if the presumption that Winter's Grasp works on bosses
PS: I've completely focused endgame pve in this build, pvp builds based on winter's grasp could also be vERY nice!
( winter's grasp 20% + frostbite 15% could end up with diminishing returns issues)

Welcome to 2 weeks ago, here have a cookie.

Please at least make a cursory scan of the thread before posting, or at the very least use the search feature.

Putting Winter's Grasp into search shows 62 specific posts in this thread alone. At least read those to see if you are adding anything to the discussion. This thread is already over 800 posts long and posting the exact same thing multiple times does nothing but bloat it further.

Edited to remove negativity, just please use search in a long thread before posting if you haven't read the whole thread.

Ah, i see, I didnt mean anything bad, or dissrespectfull tho ><

just me beeing lazy to read a whole 36pages post -.-

Found this 2 SS on wiki:

ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot060608154313hc4.jpg

ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot060608154948ar3.jpg


FFbolt must be good or we are fu*ked again.

The fact that they're elemental enemies doesn't mean that they are immune to their own elements. If there's one lesson I hope Blizzard takes forward in Wrath, it's that boss mobs shouldn't be immune to entire schools. The fact that they've never made a boss mob immune to Shadow damage shows they have at least a cursory concern for this... ideally they'll take it one step further and make every boss vulnerable to Nature, Bleeds, Poisons, Fire, Frost, Arcane, Shadow and Holy.

You're reasoning in the WotLK thread with BC statements. Spriests reduced to nothing means a whole god-damned less than it did in BC, the SP mana is a shitload less critical simply by virtue of being 40% of what it used to be. And warlocks being "useless" is irrelevant to shadow immunity, they are clearly being worked quite thoroughly to be non-shadow-exclusively in Destro.

Up until recently I'd have argued this point even further due to the SP talent that made them gear by +heal instead of +damage, but as I recall it's been removed currently. If it had stayed, the SP respeccing Disco/Holy would have been equally as realistic as expecting your frosties to respec for Hydros or Rage and your fires for Al'ar, Nefarian, Illidan, Ragnaross etc.

It is true that there are definite BC assumptions in my previous post. Its also true that Warlocks are getting more shadow/fire hybridity in their Destruction tree, so really the state of resists remains to be seen. But Blizz has a lot of work to do on the Disc tree if dps priests will be expected to respec Disc/Holy for shadow resist fights...

I think the most likely case is that boss resistances will remain more or less as they are and we will have more tools available to us to deal with them.

Well, it kind of comes down to what the intended purpose of Frostfire Bolt is.

Is it intended solely as the primary nuke for elementalist specs? If so, then perhaps there won't be further immunity fights.

Is it also intended as a secondary off-school nuke so that Frost mages can better handle Frost-immune targets and Fire mages can better handle Fire-immune targets? If so -- and this is what I think is probably the case -- then we can expect to see more immunity fights.

Some quick napkin math tells me that a deep Frost mage with 25% crit before talents, 99% hit, and 1800 damage is going to do about 70% his Frostbolt DPS and about 82% his Frostbolt DPM with Frostfire Bolt, vs. about 60%/55% with Fireball.

A similarly geared Fire mage would do about 59% of his Fireball DPS and about 74% of his Fireball DPM with Frostfire Bolt, vs. about 44%/56% with Frostbolt.

It's an improvement, but not really enough of one to prevent a need to respec on immunity fights. Seems like it's really only going to be a big deal for elementalists.

My scratch math gives me more or less the same results as yours, Lhiv. Like Fox Mulder though, I want to believe... that FFB heralds something more than a so-so nuke that generally won't change anyone's keybindings. That video kicking around that shows FFB procing Impact and Frostbite lends credence to the elementalist theory, but since it was almost certainly from a private server, all bets are off.

From the UK PC Gamer:
They will have such a talent because there will only be +heal gear.

Resistances and Immunities in PvE are dumb.
Ragnaros not being immune to fire would probably be even dumber.

That being said, I think Blizzard put a lot more thought into balancing those resistant/immune mobs than we acknowledge.


School overview and impact

Fire and frost immunities can be dealt with by a simple respec of the mage/destro warlock. Might need a new weapon enchant or secondary weapon. The BoP tailored spec-specific sets would need to be replaced as well, but Blizzard admitted that those were a mistake anyway.

Arcane would hit those AB spamming arcane mages with a dedicated arcane gear set and no fire/frost gear pretty hard. I'd call that the minor issue. It would also remove Hunter's Mark and maybe even Expose Weakness (and Arcane Shot, as minor issue), hitting hunters pretty hard, and possibly all melee DPS (iHM and ExpW). Moonkin would have to switch to Wrath spam, not sure how the impact is on DPS (it's heavier on mana, but SPs fix that easily at the moment, so it's the smaller issue).

Nature immunity - no faerie fire(/insect swarm) would make the moonkin subpar to other casters. It makes the Elemental Shaman as a raid role completely unviable. Mutilate rogues would have to respec combat and get a new-offhand, but that's just a minor thing (like caster weapon enchant).

Shadow immunity - no curses at all. CoS/E/R gone. The raid role Affliction Warlock is removed (immune to Shadow Embrace and Malediction; Blood Pact has to be provided by Demo or Destro), Demo spec is probably not viable as DPS either. The raid role Shadow Priest is removed. Another 5% magical damage loss (Misery). No VE healing can hurt in some fights, no VT mana has the potential to make some caster classes/roles less viable (it *should* be doable with pot spam, dark runes, mana tides and JoW though).

Holy immunity - Paladin DPS dropping by ~30-35% (glanced a few Brutallus parses). No Judgements, raid utility of Retribution removed. Paladin tanks unviable due to threat, pulling and taunting mechanics.


What does that mean?

Currently, fire and frost immunity are easy to deal with. There are just no major complications or consequences. Frost, fire and shadow seem to be good enough to be good DPS as replacement.

Nature, Arcane, but first and foremost Shadow and also Holy immunities do make a major difference by removing certain raid roles.
Yes, the Elemental shaman can respec resto. And on WotLK even with less gear swaps. That's not the point though. The issue is that his raid role (ToW, and totems/heroism from a non-healer) is removed. You lose a DPS and gain a healer and your casters have to regem/regear.
The same with the Balance Druid. You lose a DPS, gain a healer, you have to change groups around, your raid loses IS/iFF, your DPS regems/regears.


The argument "Mages/Warlocks can respec, so the Moonkin/ToWShaman can too!" is pretty moot.
The mage/warlock doesn't change his raid role. Just the colour of things he shoots changes.

The Elemental Shaman can't respec to "ToW and Frost Lightning Bolt". He simply can't do his role in this fight.
He can respec and fill a different role (Enhance/Resto), but his original role is gone.

A Balance Druid is somewhere in between. He can switch Wrath/Starfire, keep one of his raid roles ([Imp.] Moonkin Aura), but loses his strong raid role Imp. Faerie Fire (and Insect Swarm).
Depending on the fight and setup, he can still fulfill parts of his role and be worth a raid spot, or he can't.

Similar, on Arcane immunity, a Survival Hunter may lose his partial role "Expose Weakness" (it's listed as Arcane, but I have no confirmation if it's affected by immunities or not), but he can still respec BM and remain in his role of a ranged physical DPS. It would require some more regearing/gemming and a faster bow to remain competitive.
If the loss of Hunter's Mark is too much, then he might not be worth a raid slot, or worth only 1 for Misdirect.


Shadow immunity turns all we've known about balance upside down and removes a raid role that usually has 2-3 spots.
Yes, the individual shadow priests can respec (and gear will likely be less an issue in WotLK), but his role is gone and he depends on having a free healer slot to fill.
Let's be honest - if you have a shadow immunity fight, 3 holy priests and up to 3 slots for healing priests, then the chances that the respecced shadow priest gets in are rather low (for minmaxing). Even with the gear changes, the top healing gear will be better than top damage gear - unless they are the exact same pieces, in which case I'd guess at least one of them is mediocre.

Holy immunity removes the raid role of Retribution and Protection Paladins. Prot might find another mob to tank.
That works on Illidan (druid can't [it's been done with intervene rotations, but it's no advisable for learning] tank him, but can take flames), or on Council (Warrior on Gathios for reflect, nonn-warrior on Veras for bubbles).


There are further effects, but they are pretty minor. Rogues lose DPS from switching poison for oil, enhancement shaman lose on slightly worse shock cycles and searing totem.

Immunities also don't go well with gimmick fights. Interrupts rely on MNPoison, CoTongues, interrupts from 2/3 schools. Dispels rely on 3 schools. Crowd control even more.


How about resistances?

If the resistances (with CoS/E up) are low, some spell penetration can fix it. Arena offhands/wands, PvP rings, cloak enchant, gems.
If the are high, you can spam spell penetration gems on an extra gear set. And yes, I think that would be totally dumb design.
It's possible that you're better off foregoing that role. But a shadow priest with CoS spamming 262 Spell Penetration would be worthwhile. A second one? Less likely.


Conclusion

Resistances and Immunities blow, but we knew that already.
Frost and fire immunities/resistances have very little impact on the raid. Maybe Winter's Grace is lost, but fire seems to not inferior to frost. The good thing is that they are easy to deal with, the bad thing is that little prevents them from actually adding those immune mobs.
Arcane, then Nature/Holy, and especially Shadow have major impacts on your raid. Roles disappear, you have to redesign your raid. Balance changes completely.

I think, or rather hope, that this is the reason we don't see more of those fights. Another Hydross (Flame Shock and Flametongue Weapon, yay!) would be pretty terrible. Not sure about Vashj Elementals, but an Elemental Shaman can take teh kiting role in P2.



PS:
Did you know that Emperor Vek'nilash is not immune to holy magic? While the Temple of Ahn'Qiraj was the off-spec zone, it allowed for Paladin DPS (and tanking, but I don't think prot was viable for tanking back then) on this one restricted fight.

I think that is better thought out than expected.

And it's not unlikely that, in WotLK, it will also mean replacing your four Major Inscriptions.

Looking at all the changes being made in talent trees and new trainable spells to reduce the pressure to respec, I think a lot of people may be very surprised to see a flipside to that in terms of a significant increase in the cost to respec (not necessarily a cost in gold, but a cost). Blizzard seems, and I support this 100%, to be working hard to make specs more meaningful and "sticky," and less like weapons you can simply swap around like a marine in Quake.

The only 'sticky' spec that would work right now is elemental, as fire and frost still have empowered and improved bolts. So if immunities end up being thrown around more liberally then elemental specs will NEED to be competative with frost or fire specs, simply because mages will be feeling 'bullied' into elemental (or arcane) specs.

Whether or not elemental works will depend on how WG works in relation to bosses of course (and if it counts as a frost debuff or physical debuff). Whether or not arcane works will depend on how NP works with AM... so basically, how mages are going to work in WotLK right now is coming down to 2 tallents :S

Maybe I understand debuffs wrong but ffb should still be able to put winter's grasp on the target even if the target is immune to frost. As long as the spell hits and has a frost type association it should still be able to apply it to the mob. There are exceptions like poly and fear that have checks built into them but I was under the impression that debuffs weren't usually affected by schools but only by their dispel types. If that's true then WG should still apply to frost immune mobs.

A fire-damage FFB should still attempt to apply Winter's Grasp, but it's most likely that the mob would be immune to it. This is not altogether unlike a mage with Imp CS getting an "Immune" message on silence-immune mobs despite the counterspell going through. It's still relatively untested that most/all debuffs have an elemental type, but I assume that the default debuff datatype contains that field, which could be patched to be tested against even if the hit-check is circumvented (as it usually is nowadays for proc-talents).

It's not really like that. In the case of the mob being immune it's because they're immune to silencing effects. In that case you're talking about a mob that is immune to the side effect of the spell. Unfortunately there's nothing we have as a precedent for this situation. We've never had a situation when a spell goes through but fails to apply the debuff unless they're immune to that type of effect, i.e. snare, root, silence, stun, etc.

Actually, you could test this by seeing if Winter's Chill gets wiped off of Hydross when he switches from poison to frost mode.

That's a good point. Anyone who's currently raiding SSC mind testing this?

The wording of WG on the alpha wiki places a lot of this Elementalist supposition in a precarious position: "Gives your Frost damage spells a 10%/20% chance to apply the Winter's Grasp effect...". FFB's wording explicitly states that it does Fire damage unless Frost would be more effective. Then again, it doesn't explicitly state that it has a 'Chill' effect associated with it, only that it slows by x%, but video evidence suggests that it procs Frostbite, which is dependent on Chill...

Sigh.

Well, I'm sure Beta will start soon. Meanwhile, I'd like to hear an answer to Lhivera's Hydross question if anyone has one.

Private server footage shows fire-damage FfBs proccing WC, but its private server so you may want to take it with a grain of salt. At the very least, it provides some hope.

At first glance it might look that way sure... But with alot better scaling, aoe spell and spell pushback immunity the nerf feels very balanced and probably puts us at 50-60% of the efficiency we are at today.