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Old 06/12/08, 7:50 PM   #1076
MyrddinE
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Alvira View Post
They just need to put some top tiered talents (above 41 points) that futher increase only arcane crit damage by another 25% and they would balance arcane scaling out. But for some odd reason, they still haven't done so.

Melee gets at least 200% damage crits. Frost gets 200% damage on crits. Fire gets more than 210% if you add talents. Only arcane is in the bizzare situation of getting only 175% on crits.
Ok, this is really bugging me. Do people really think that Arcane is doing literally 1/4 less damage than other specs? That's bullshit. Arcane does not equal fire damage, but the difference is more like 5%, not 25%. Take a look at this spreadsheet I created that shows the relative damage output of the various specs. Due to a mistake in calculation some of the values are wrong. But the bolded items (which include all of the T6/Sunwell gear comparisons) should be pretty accurate.

Given the best gear in the game, the difference on a 5 minute fight between the best spec (2/48/11 @ 2447dps) and the worst spec covered (48/0/13 @ 2206dps) is barely 10%. The best arcane spec (40/0/21 @ 2319) is barely over 5% below. The difference is slim, there is no need to give a giant 25% buff to arcane when it's trailing by such a tiny margin.

You're forgetting that Arcane does not scale as well as Fire with +damage... but it scales better than fire with Int and Spirit. That doesn't quite keep up, but it's very close... and even if there were no talent changes at all in WotLK, Arcane would probably be beating fire by level 80, due to greater Int & Spirit on the new gear. Or maybe not... it's hard to say.

Point is, the difference between Arcane and Fire is small... a mere 5% with the best gear currently available to us.

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Old 06/12/08, 7:52 PM   #1077
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
Lhivera's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
Hm, asking you or anyone else out there:

Has it been determined yet how "Hot Streak" works? Internal cooldown, or just double the crit chance (*2 instead of +100%), or just plain overpowered?
I've been following as closely as I could and haven't found anything at all yet.
Apparently there was a problem with the talent granting unlimited crits once you got three in a row, so it seems like it must be, not necessarily an internal cooldown, but at least a counter reset after you get the proc. The remaining question is whether it resets before or after you use the guaranteed crit.

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Old 06/12/08, 7:56 PM   #1078
alvinrod
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Dark Iron
So new patch note information has been leaking out from wikidot. It looks like the rumors about +healing getting axed are true. Everything will be "spellpower" now. This is exactly the same as the spell damage on items. Healing spells are being adjusted to get a bigger coefficient to compensate for these changes. This should make itemization a lot more interesting in WotLK. Also hit, crit, and haste rating are now work on both spells and melee. That'll probably go a long way towards fixing some problems that paladins and other classes had.

According to the forums the elemental shaman talents are done, but I haven't seen anything posted yet. Probably doesn't affect us directly, but a lot of people use elemental shamans in a mage or warlock group so it'll be interesting to see how they stack up next to the vastly improved balance druid.

Edit: Another interesting tidbit that will be greatly appreciated:

"- Combat Log Changes:
The combat log now differentiates between a spell failure due to
resistance and spell failure due to missing the target. Where once
both events reported as a resist; a spell missing the target is now
reported as a miss."

Last edited by alvinrod : 06/12/08 at 8:01 PM. Reason: Extra stuff

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Old 06/12/08, 7:59 PM   #1079
Deltrus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Mage
 
Rexxar
Doesn't say that any of the classes already in the alpha are getting new spells but maybe there will be some. Brilliance aura would be nice because we would always get oomkins and elemental shamans.

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Old 06/12/08, 8:05 PM   #1080
alvinrod
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Dark Iron
Brilliant aura would be nice but it would potentially lead to mages being in groups where they don't get any useful buffs from other classes that add group synergy. Imagine if the aura gave everyone in your party an extra 10% mana regeneration while casting. Unless it stacked, we'd probably be split up to make the most use out of it.

One mage would get the nice group for sure, but the other is just as likely to get stuffed in with the healers or some other group. I suppose that isn't the end of the world, but we generally get support given to use either because we need it (shadow priest for mana) or it helps our DPS (shaman for totems, sub-20% BL) by a lot.

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Old 06/12/08, 8:08 PM   #1081
Deltrus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Mage
 
Rexxar
Originally Posted by alvinrod View Post
Brilliant aura would be nice but it would potentially lead to mages being in groups where they don't get any useful buffs from other classes that add group synergy. Imagine if the aura gave everyone in your party an extra 10% mana regeneration while casting. Unless it stacked, we'd probably be split up to make the most use out of it.

One mage would get the nice group for sure, but the other is just as likely to get stuffed in with the healers or some other group. I suppose that isn't the end of the world, but we generally get support given to use either because we need it (shadow priest for mana) or it helps our DPS (shaman for totems, sub-20% BL) by a lot.
Ouch, yeah, I didn't think about he one mage per group thing.

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Old 06/12/08, 8:19 PM   #1082
Lurker
Von Kaiser
 
Lurker's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Moon Guard
Not Mage related, but I'll just post the Shaman end talents to those viewing:

Spirit Link:
372 Mana - 40 yd range
Instance Cast
You link the friendly target with two nearby targets, causing 50% of the damage taken to be distributed to the linked targets. After 2200 damage, the link will sever.

Feral Spirit:
372 Mana - 30 yd range
Instant Cast - 2 Minute cooldown
Summons 2 spirit wolves under the command of the shaman, lasting 30 seconds.

Thunder:
Instant - 45 second cooldown
You call down a bolt of lighting, energizing you and damaging nearby enemies within 10 yards. Restores 5% mana to you and deals 595 to 679 nature damage to all nearby enemies, knocking them back 200 yards.

Edit: 200 yards is likely *very* wrong.

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Old 06/12/08, 8:40 PM   #1083
Deltrus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Mage
 
Rexxar
This might be a new arcane spell- 51609 Arcane Lightning Strikes an enemy with a lightning bolt that arcs to another nearby enemy. The spell affects up to $x1 targets, inflicting greater Arcane damage to each successive target. Silences an enemy, preventing them from casting spells for $d.

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Old 06/12/08, 8:42 PM   #1084
Nurru
The beatings will stop once morale improves
 
Nurru's Avatar
 
Nurru
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Deltrus View Post
This might be a new arcane spell- 51609 Arcane Lightning Strikes an enemy with a lightning bolt that arcs to another nearby enemy. The spell affects up to $x1 targets, inflicting greater Arcane damage to each successive target. Silences an enemy, preventing them from casting spells for $d.
Isn't that already in Sethekk?

United States Online
Old 06/12/08, 8:44 PM   #1085
Deltrus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Mage
 
Rexxar
No idea, wikidot says its new. Also found this in there 51475 Summon Air Elemental Summons an Air Elemental to accompany the caster until dismissed. Might make shamans a little interesting.

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Old 06/12/08, 9:15 PM   #1086
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Damaging spells must have ranks. If it doesn't, it's probably a mob spell. Summons are a bit different: shaman summons previously required totems, although this could change and there's no reason they can't have a permament one as a 51-point talent.


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Old 06/12/08, 10:22 PM   #1087
Deedre
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Turalyon
Only mage specific change I saw so far was cold snap resetting shatter shield. Looks like the elemental shaman patch. (And the Diablo2 fan in me is miffed at seeing spirit wolves going to shammies. That's a drood spell!)

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Old 06/12/08, 10:27 PM   #1088
Lurker
Von Kaiser
 
Lurker's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Moon Guard
Originally Posted by Deedre View Post
Only mage specific change I saw so far was cold snap resetting shatter shield. Looks like the elemental shaman patch. (And the Diablo2 fan in me is miffed at seeing spirit wolves going to shammies. That's a drood spell!)
D:

Warcraft III - Orcs -> Units -> Far Seer

Also, Rogues got talent support for their PvP glove effect. :/ I still <3 you Arcane Blast.

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Old 06/12/08, 10:31 PM   #1089
Finkum
Don Flamenco
 
Human Priest
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by Deedre View Post
Only mage specific change I saw so far was cold snap resetting shatter shield. Looks like the elemental shaman patch. (And the Diablo2 fan in me is miffed at seeing spirit wolves going to shammies. That's a drood spell!)
Except that WoW inherits its lore not from Diablo, but from the Warcraft series, where it has previously been established as a Shaman spell (i.e. one of Thrall's abilities in Warcraft 3). /end OT

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Old 06/12/08, 11:01 PM   #1090
Deedre
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Turalyon
According to the patch notes, hit rating, critical strike rating, and haste rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.

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Old 06/12/08, 11:06 PM   #1091
Alvira
Don Flamenco
 
Human Mage
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by MyrddinE View Post
Ok, this is really bugging me. Do people really think that Arcane is doing literally 1/4 less damage than other specs? That's bullshit. Arcane does not equal fire damage, but the difference is more like 5%, not 25%. Take a look at this spreadsheet I created that shows the relative damage output of the various specs. Due to a mistake in calculation some of the values are wrong. But the bolded items (which include all of the T6/Sunwell gear comparisons) should be pretty accurate.

Given the best gear in the game, the difference on a 5 minute fight between the best spec (2/48/11 @ 2447dps) and the worst spec covered (48/0/13 @ 2206dps) is barely 10%. The best arcane spec (40/0/21 @ 2319) is barely over 5% below. The difference is slim, there is no need to give a giant 25% buff to arcane when it's trailing by such a tiny margin.

You're forgetting that Arcane does not scale as well as Fire with +damage... but it scales better than fire with Int and Spirit. That doesn't quite keep up, but it's very close... and even if there were no talent changes at all in WotLK, Arcane would probably be beating fire by level 80, due to greater Int & Spirit on the new gear. Or maybe not... it's hard to say.

Point is, the difference between Arcane and Fire is small... a mere 5% with the best gear currently available to us.

It is commonly accepted that AM scales extremely poorly as a spell. And the only reason why arcane is competitive right now is because of the huge bonus that T5 set adds to arcane blast, plus the spamming of a spell (arcane blast) which I am not even sure was originally intended to be spammed for an entire raid boss fight duration.

Arcane blast needs to be hasted from 2.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds and literally spammed in order for arcane to be competitive at top levels. AM is totally not used as a regular spell in top tier raiding. All this points to poor arcane scaling.

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Old 06/12/08, 11:28 PM   #1092
Althor
Great Tiger
 
Troll Priest
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by Deedre View Post
According to the patch notes, hit rating, critical strike rating, and haste rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.
Yes, but (for those people that assume otherwise), there's no reason to assume that this means that the conversion from rating -> actual value is the same for each type.

For example on live it takes less +spell hit rating to get 1% of spell hit than +hit rating -> +hit%

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Old 06/13/08, 6:43 AM   #1093
Kopalec
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Suramar
"Lava Burst Rank 1 You hurl molten lava at the target, dealing $s1 Fire damage. If Flame Shock is on the target, Lava Burst will consume the Flame Shock, causing Lava Burst to critically hit."

"Lava flow 3/3 Increases the amount of spell damage gained while having Flametongue Weapon equipped by 15%, and increases the damage done by your Flame Shock and Lava Burst by 10%."

Depending on how these additions to Elem-Shaman and further changes to Fire-Locks, does this give us the "added" raid synergy some of us have been looking for? Imp Scorch isn't new, but at least now others will desire the buff. Something to rival Winter's Grasp in the Frost tree. (kinda)

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Old 06/13/08, 8:45 AM   #1094
alvinrod
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Dark Iron
I haven't seen much information on lava burst yet so it's difficult to tell how useful it will be. Is it something that replaces LB spam or is it something one a long cool down that's only used with flame shock for some extra DPS?

Otherwise it doesn't seem as though elemental shaman got a lot of PvE love from the current talents. There's certainly a shift from straight LB spam to mix in some flame shocks and presumably use the new lava burst spell in conjunction with that, but the group synergy that provide appears to be exactly the same. The only real advantage they have over a restoration shaman is that totem of wrath gives an extra 3% crit and hit.

I think it's probably better to use a balance druid over an elemental shaman at the moment, at least in terms of synergy for the rest of the group. I know that it's alpha and things are subject to change, but it could be that our TC won't be built around having an elemental shaman in the group.

I was honestly hoping for an earth totem at 51 points that reduced pushback and offered some other bonus such as a slight bit of spell haste or something along those lines. I guess I'm a little stuck with the mentality that the elemental shaman exists to buff the hell out of his group and his DPS is more of bonus than anything serious.

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Old 06/13/08, 9:20 AM   #1095
Pintofbrew
Now with Karate Grip! (TM)
 
Pintofbrew's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
Not Mage related, but I'll just post the Shaman end talents to those viewing:

Spirit Link:
372 Mana - 40 yd range
Instance Cast
You link the friendly target with two nearby targets, causing 50% of the damage taken to be distributed to the linked targets. After 2200 damage, the link will sever.

Feral Spirit:
372 Mana - 30 yd range
Instant Cast - 2 Minute cooldown
Summons 2 spirit wolves under the command of the shaman, lasting 30 seconds.

Thunder:
Instant - 45 second cooldown
You call down a bolt of lighting, energizing you and damaging nearby enemies within 10 yards. Restores 5% mana to you and deals 595 to 679 nature damage to all nearby enemies, knocking them back 200 yards.

Edit: 200 yards is likely *very* wrong.
How awesome are those? AoE pushback may be an absolute Godsend for us. Immagine AoE, stuff goes pear-shaped, the Enh shaman in the middle pops one of these momas and gives you enough breathing space to nova/invis/blink/not-die. And about time Spirit Wolves made a show, to be honest.

Spirit Link I don't get; the amount is simply pathetic. The only thing I can think of is an anti-polymorph mechanic in 3v3, but even so it's mostly polymorph-specific. Unless 2200 is the base amount, per player. Or something.

Originally Posted by Kopalec View Post
"Lava flow 3/3 Increases the amount of spell damage gained while having Flametongue Weapon equipped by 15%, and increases the damage done by your Flame Shock and Lava Burst by 10%."
This quite clearly indicates Flametongue to be modified to include a +spell buff component. I was about to wonder if it'd extend to Flametongue Totem, but then I realized (1) we have WoA already (2) Oils are probably better. Shame, looked like a nice opportunity.

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Old 06/13/08, 9:43 AM   #1096
Gediablo
Piston Honda
 
Gediablo's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Ravencrest (EU)
A good thing with the extra fire damage on shamans though. More use for CoE with the new deathknight and shaman changes. Who knows - it might actually be more important than CoR in WotLK. Then again spirit wolves is probably just more physical damage.

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Old 06/13/08, 9:45 AM   #1097
Pintofbrew
Now with Karate Grip! (TM)
 
Pintofbrew's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
More important than CoS, probably. More important than CoR? Extremely, massively unlikely. We have yet to see the Rogue changes and if the Enh Shaman changes are anything to go by, melee will maintain a very high output position. And so they rightfully should; going into the thick of it is a lot more taxing than parking at 36y and chain-spamming.

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Old 06/13/08, 9:50 AM   #1098
Sorcerer
Banned
 
Undead Mage
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Oh my ... to druid/rogue/enh shamans talents/changes.

I start to believe we can shut down any theorycrafts with such things around where maybe 1/10 of the alpha will go through to beta.

But anyway, rogue especially assasination talents are terrifying me. I have yet to see enh shamans tree but from what i heard they are getting along with druids something like Beast Within and another root/snare droping abilities.

If it goes live, we either need some serious changes to mage kiting mechanics and or totally rework mages around pvp.

Can't post any links atm to the talent trees as every new link is getting shut down due to traffic.

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Old 06/13/08, 9:58 AM   #1099
Maledict
Bald Bull
 
Maledict's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
More important than CoS, probably. More important than CoR? Extremely, massively unlikely. We have yet to see the Rogue changes and if the Enh Shaman changes are anything to go by, melee will maintain a very high output position. And so they rightfully should; going into the thick of it is a lot more taxing than parking at 36y and chain-spamming.
The new rank of Curse of Elements also affects Shadow and Arcane resists & damage in the alpha apparently, so there's that issue gone.

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Old 06/13/08, 10:00 AM   #1100
Gediablo
Piston Honda
 
Gediablo's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
More important than CoS, probably.
Don't think that is likely with both shadowpriests, warlocks, moonkins and even arcane mages benefiting from that curse. Also i'm pretty sure that both enh-shamans and non-frost-deathknights will be more common in raids than their CoE specs.
The new rank of Curse of Elements also affects Shadow and Arcane resists & damage in the alpha apparently, so there's that issue gone.
That is big news. Got a source on that?

Last edited by Gediablo : 06/14/08 at 2:39 AM.

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