[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 46

Lhivera · 06/13/08, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Assuming that DKs give a 5% vulnerability debuff, this comes ~24.58%, which is in line with the others (if a shade lower, made up by crit bonuses). If they code in an insurmountable way for Frostbolt to be subject to partial resists, then DKs might end up doing a 10% amp. The result of this comes to ~23.34%, also reasonable for the same reasons. assuming 10% and no partials, it's ~29.96%

I'm actually inclined to think (though am not at all sure) that the DK debuff won't be a flat % damage increase, but rather something along the lines of the vulnerability that we see on Underbog Colossi in SSC, which if I recall correctly is both a crit chance increase and a crit damage increase.

I don't have a lot on which to base this hunch -- just the fact that, if it were a simple percentage increase, why not state it in the talent text? Percentage increases are easy to explain, and they appear consistently in pretty much every tooltip that uses them. By contrast, the debuff tooltip on Colossus vulnerability simply states that the target is vulnerable to (insert school here), with no actual explanation of the effect.

SomeoneRandom · 06/13/08, 7:15 PM

I have been trying to keep up with this as much as possible, so if this was already posted I am sorry...

YouTube - WoW WotLK new mage skills (Frostfire bolt / Arcane Barrage)

In that video you can see him procing frostbite, winter's chill, ignite and impact against the same mob... this leads me to believe that you can actually have a spec with all 3 crit talents and have them all affect the same frostfire bolt... If this was already brought up sorry, but I have only read about 70-80% of the pages. =]

◊ manly · 06/13/08, 7:20 PM

Ok so, apparently, I think I might have found from where I got the info that frostbolt paid a partial penalty. Apparently frostbolts now are non-binary. Also, resistances are in increments of 10% instead of 25%.

edit: ditto for cone of cold. Apparently all snares are always applied even on partial resists. No data on snares applied on misses.

Lhivera · 06/13/08, 7:24 PM

If Frostbolts are non-binary, is any spell binary?

I never really saw any reason why Frostbolts had to be binary -- easy, if you resist 100% of the damage, you resist the snare, otherwise you don't. Perhaps they've just made improvements to the software so it can better handle such things without a performance hit.

◊ manly · 06/13/08, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

If Frostbolts are non-binary, is any spell binary?

I never really saw any reason why Frostbolts had to be binary -- easy, if you resist 100% of the damage, you resist the snare, otherwise you don't. Perhaps they've just made improvements to the software so it can better handle such things without a performance hit.

Well, from a coding perspective I understand why they would do that. You can't 'half resist' an effect that isn't spell damage. Example: counterspell. It would not make sense to half resist a counterspell -- its an all or nothing. Snares fit in that category. So you cast a frostbolt, then to determine whether or not the snare should apply, you have 'no choice' but to let it lands, or get fully resisted. For some reason it seems like they grouped both the spell with the effect together.

In any case, I always believed that was the reason behind the whole binary frostbolt.

So to answer your question, yes, there are binary spells. You still can't half resist a counterspell.

Nut · 06/13/08, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Shadow: 1.1125 (ISB 75% uptime?) * 1.13 (CoE) * 1.1 (Weaving) * 1.05 (Misery) * 0.949 (partial resists) ~= 37.79% (!)

Just a minor detail, but Shadow Weaving is having its nerf reversed for WotLK (3% Shadow damage, stacks to 5, for 15%).

Edit: I'm completely wrong. That's what I get for being lazy and relying on secondary sources instead of parsing the data myself.

Lhivera · 06/13/08, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by Nut

Just a minor detail, but Shadow Weaving is having its nerf reversed for WotLK (3% Shadow damage, stacks to 5, for 15%).

Are you sure of this, or is that based on the various talent calculators built from war-tools code? Because if the latter, there are a number of war-tools template talents that are out of date (for instance, they still don't list the +5% damage on Arctic Winds).

ETA: This doesn't prove it either way, but the war-tools Priest template for Shadow Weaving is indeed out of date, and still lists the 3% per stack value.

Originally Posted by manly

So to answer your question, yes, there are binary spells. You still can't half resist a counterspell.

Yeah, that there was me having a tunnel-vision brain fart, forgetting that there are spells that don't do damage.

Regardless, as much as I liked escaping that 5% penalty, it seems like Frost is gaining enough potential utility for it to be worth giving up. Thanks for the info.

bynop · 06/13/08, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Unfortunately, the way you expect them to. Every bolt individually calculates its crit upon finishing its individual cast. The exception to this is clearcasting. However, in this given scenarios, there is nothing that would lead me to believe a possible 'finish with AM on the last second shatter is up' (or whatever the name of the talent is/proc).

Actually, you could test it right now. Spec shatter. Frostnova a mob. Then cast arcane missiles. If the 'trick' you're trying to pull off works, then all 5 bolts should have +50% crit. I am fairly confident it won't.

If anything, even assuming the 'trick' doesn't work, and that you asked a very very straightforward 'how about just AM spam with shatter, using another mage to proc shatter', well, I wouldn't expect much. Fact is, arcane still has 175% crit multiplier, which is still universally bad no matter how I try and put it. I would personally more bank on either barrage/frostbolt being your 'main nuke', then fireball on NP proc, and when you have excessive mana, your 'dump mana' rotation would be barrage/blast/blast fireball on NP.

Aye arcane missiles will always have the suck coefficient it seems.

what i had originally had in mind was frost/arcane synergy with Winter's grasp allowing more bolts to proc shatter without losing the bonus in the middle of the wave.

Still, 4 seconds of frozen time will already preclude having all 5 bolts hit with shatter, unless you got really lucky.

Sancus · 06/13/08, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nut

Just a minor detail, but Shadow Weaving is having its nerf reversed for WotLK (3% Shadow damage, stacks to 5, for 15%).

This is completely false, and I have no idea where this rumor came from. All spell data shows 2%-5stacks, as always, and no alpha client data parse has ever shown otherwise.

Deltrus · 06/13/08, 11:54 PM

Wikidot now says that shamans have a new spell. It is in the section that usually has confirmed abilities but we can't say for sure that it is not just a mob ability.

Here it is; Hex - Transforms the enemy into a random critter, reducing the target's movement speed by 75%. While moving, the hexed target cannot attack or cast spells. Only one target can be hexed at a time. Only works on Humanoids and Beasts.

Sorta seems like polymorph without a heal... looks like shaman are gonna be very desired in pve + imagine this in pvp.

Heres the link WotLK Information Wiki: Shaman Abilities

Kludge · 06/14/08, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Deltrus

Wikidot now says that shamans have a new spell. It is in the section that usually has confirmed abilities but we can't say for sure that it is not just a mob ability.

Here it is; Hex - Transforms the enemy into a random critter, reducing the target's movement speed by 75%. While moving, the hexed target cannot attack or cast spells. Only one target can be hexed at a time. Only works on Humanoids and Beasts.

Sorta seems like polymorph without a heal... looks like shaman are gonna be very desired in pve + imagine this in pvp.

Heres the link WotLK Information Wiki: Shaman Abilities

So far multiple classes get aoe for the first time, multiple classes get cc and a few classes get improvements to direct damage.

It makes me wonder where mages fit in...

Keoren · 06/14/08, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kludge

So far multiple classes get aoe for the first time, multiple classes get cc and a few classes get improvements to direct damage.

It makes me wonder where mages fit in...

Conjure Food rank 9: 1100 mana, 10 sweet potato pies.
Conjure Food rank 10: 1245 mana, 8 strudels.
Conjure Water rank 10: 1100 mana, 10 skins of rain water.
Conjure Water rank 11: 1245 mana, 6 skins of crystal spring water.

But on a more serious note, I'm also wondering this. Is hex truly confirmed to be a shaman spell? Unless the spell lasts for a very short time and/or has a reasonable cooldown, it's truly powerful.

alvinrod · 06/14/08, 2:19 AM

The wording on that ability is fairly ambiguous and leaves out a lot of information. How long is the cast time, what's the mana cost, and how long is the duration? It also states that the target cannot attack or cast spells while moving, but what if the target is standing still? Also, what debuff type does it fall under? The Troll priest racial Hex of Weakness is a curse, but does that necessarily mean this will be?

The snare is definitely nasty, but how much do shamans need that when they already have frost shock which works quite well for kiting in PvE/PvP. The prospect of a polymorph-like debuff that's removed through decursing rather than dispelling is an interesting twist though.

Deltrus · 06/14/08, 2:35 AM

Duration isn't listed but it is either really short and doesn't break on damage(good for pvp) or it is over a minute long (sorta good for both). Also I sorta doubt it will be a curse. Hopefully this will be short and mages will still have the best CC.

PsyBomb · 06/14/08, 3:03 AM

Half-second cast on it, neither type nor duration listed, no rank, and the Blizzard GM action tab in the shot leads me to believe that this is either a mob ability or some loose code somewhere.

Deltrus · 06/14/08, 3:09 AM

What I am guessing is that this spell wasn't meant to be used yet since the level cap is only 75 right now. That would explain the lack of information on the tool tip; the info hasn't been finalized. Also notice that it is in the elemental spells tab, normally loose bits of coding are put into the general tab.

Kailhasa · 06/14/08, 3:45 AM

Almost sounds like the Hex spell off Vosh'ajin in LBRS, cept that one was AoE.

LiquidHAL · 06/14/08, 3:47 AM

1 minute cooldown, yet it specifies only one target can be hexed at a time?

TimWischmeier · 06/14/08, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by LiquidHAL

1 minute cooldown, yet it specifies only one target can be hexed at a time?

This would imply that the duration of the debuff must be longer than 1 minute to make sense.

Yet I don't think this is a substitue to polymorph. It states "cannot attack or cast spells while moving". So you don't take the target out of combat.

Sorcerer · 06/14/08, 9:31 AM

It assume mob is in combat but enable to interact...

If it states unable to attack or cast spells it doesnt. Why look some deeper meaning? Hex can just follow players.

Jonny_Monroe · 06/14/08, 9:58 AM

So, you still retain control of your character hile hex'd, you just move slowly and can't attack/cast.

Regarding 10% resist incriments - this is a slight nerf to arcane mages. More potential results for a resist roll means less 100% resists from resistance - less Magic Abs procs.

Lhivera · 06/14/08, 10:22 AM

The debuff tooltip on Hex reads differently from the description tooltip on the spell -- stronger snare, no mention of "while moving" on the silence/pacify. So details are probably not sorted out yet.

Lurker · 06/14/08, 11:22 AM

General: Some new shaman spells

Towards the end:

8 second duration. The mechanic for the spell is listed as "polymorphed".
The spell abilities are "mod speed slow 75%", "transform" and "pacify and silence".
Edit: Ohh, and it's a magic debuff

So it's more of a "dispellable blind" with a quick cast. I don't think the Polymorphed bit will imply healing, else it'd be a pretty bad spell.

Deninkle · 06/14/08, 12:00 PM

Don't some mobs in Zul Farrak have that as an ability?

I'm pretty sure it's called hex, doesn't break on damage, no healing, magic debuff and you run around as a frog.

Lhivera · 06/14/08, 12:07 PM

There are trolls in a couple places with a similar ability, yeah. It includes a confuse, however, like Polymorph, and no snare IIRC.