Deedre

Seems to me that fire mages are going to scale just fine with those insane burnout crits. Damage isn't going to be a problem for them, threat and probably mana will be.

 

◊ manly

Heh, 'scaling well' is too wide of a term for me to take seriously. Is 'the spec that scales the best' for mages a spec 'scaling well' ? Everything is relative to what other classes can do. I don't know if we'll scale well, but depending on how burnout ends up in the final stage we'll see vastly different playstyles/gearing decisions.

Needless to say, I would enjoy 33 arcane spec, but that doesn't change the fact that I can't condition myself to look forward to new talents I won't be using.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Deedre

Manly, I'm assuming for the moment that Vontre's confirmation of burnout is correct, and therefore we won't be seeing 33/38 hybrids. The more interesting question is whether or not fire mages have the luxury of going deep enough into frost to grab icy veins and shatter due to mana constraints as opposed to clearcasting and possibly even arcane meditation. The whole mana situation right now is very difficult to predict with the massive changes to itemization in the works.

 

◊ manly

Well I know where Vontre's burnout confirmation came from. But regardless what the source is, the fact remains that anything can change. I think everyone will agree at this point that what matters is what we gain vs what we lose, talent-wise. And so far, the biggest selling point for deep fire is burnout (by a large margin I might add). In other words, were comparing the 5 talent points spent in burnout with [arcane power + 2/2 spell power + 2/3 arcane instability]. Burnout better be 25% on 150 because otherwise I can't imagine it beating the talent point investment of arcane.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

◊ nathanbp

I just wanted to point out that that is not quite true (regrading spirit being good for everyone) some mage specs may still run molten armor over mage armor, giving us only very small benefits from spirit (from Improved DS only). Although I suppose mages have been dealing with unwanted spirit on our gear since original WoW, so it'll be nothing new to us.

On the other hand, increased spirit on gear may make 33/38 into a viable spec depending on how good the new destruction potion (or other potions) is, since it seems likely that deep fire with burnout will not have enough mana to pop them instead of mana potions.

 

Maledict

I was just about to say - currently mages are still lacking reasons to use spirit. It's better for us to chain drink mana potions than wear Mage Armour over Molten Armour. Warlock's best armour damage wise is also their best armour regen wise, so for them spirit becomes a useful stat no matter what spec they are. For mages, that isn't the case - there's no talents to increase damage from spirit in either the frost or fire trees, and neither frost nor fire wants to use Mage Armour.
There needs to be more empasis on spirit in the fire & frost trees if Blizzard really wants all cloth caster classes to be using the same gear.

 

Pintofbrew

Why I agree totally and barring priests, locks lack enough incentive to run spirit too. Hence why I noted "now all cloth will have spirit more or less, be it destined for priest, mage or lock" and not "cloth will have spirit, which is good" or anything of the like.

I did not mention whether or not it was good, the example was purely to demonstrate it as a move in favour of gear simplification and to back my claim that locks didn't gain spirit-based regen in order to give them less life-tap, they gained it in order for the "tanking armor" to be better, the "raiding armor" to be worse (comparatively) and the gear to be "mage or lock" rather than the current "arcane mage only, possibly SP, locks and other mages don't care". The focus of that sentence was "they gain regen and lose efficiency at the same rate, hence the buff isn't what it looks like". Not "spirit is good".

Spirit is looking to be the new Crit Rate, just worse. If it's there, whatever. If it's absent in favour of superior stats, so much the better.

 

Roywyn

I wouldn't call crit rating bad, really. It's our third best DPS stat, and an item with crit is usually better than if the very same item had its crit rating removed and all other stats increased.
Yes, of course you could make a point where an item has only dmg/crit/hit that it would be better to turn that crit straight into haste, but we'd sooner or later reach points where crit becomes better and haste becomes worse if we go too far there.

I would agree that "spi is the new int" from a non-arcane point of view.
And we probably won't see any good "warlock gear without spirit" that we used to snatch for good item stats

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Pintofbrew

The thing about gear, though, is that the fewer shit it has on it, the less overall bonus it gets. This is counter-intuitive but it caters to avoiding stacking one thing, observe:

Three identical i-lvl greens:

Of Stamina:
+50sta

Of Eagle:
you'd expect 25sta 25int, but instead
+32sta
+32int
(total more then previous one)

Of Cheesecake:
Perhaps one should think 17 to each but
+24sta
+25int
+24spi
(total more than either 2-stat or 1-stat)

Numbers are rather arbitrary, but the point remains; if we had to pick an item with crit/dmg/int and one with just dmg/int it's clear that (provided some modicum of benefit is granted from each one) the one with the most variety will win.

Take the silk/dreadweave case; if you gain anything at all from crit (ie: are a mage) and the 3-4stam diff per item isn't absolutely fundamental, to all exclusion, for your performance you're always getting more DPS-worth from Silk.

I'd say "spirit is new non-arcane int" is more accurate, yea.

Thankfully, I'm noticing a distinct trend in almost every class towards crit, making things hugely more interesting. I hazard the reason for this is (1) OMG 2-SHOT IN BG has disappeared from being a problem (2) funnily, resilience is now so high crit just doesn't happen (3) there's no other mechanics left to play with. There's only so much mileage one can get from haste, because it modifies something that can't be "felt" so much and adding more flat +damage is just plain linear and boring.

Even the addition of 10% increments on partials looks to me like an attempt to spice-up the game and avoid the similitude of seeing the same 2500-2650 frostbolt (with exactly 2x crit) 5 million times this month.

 

Lhivera

I recall rumors that Mana Potions were going to be a temporary gain only in WotLK, with the mana gained leeched away over a period of 60 seconds. Has that been confirmed or debunked? Because if true, you can bet that every mage will be using Mage Armor in all but the shortest encounters.

 

Kludge

WotLK Information Wiki: General

# New healing potion: Restores 2700 to 4500 health.
# New mana potion: Restores 3240 to 5400 mana.

So far it says restores..

Also a fun side note:

# Some spell data is in there for flying carpets.
# For those who had fun imagining dumping passengers on a flying mount/vehicle high up in the air, seems Blizzard thought of that. Parachute: "A portable parachute, automatically activates when the caster begins falling.

 

Lhivera

For my own purposes, I compiled the questions that we have (tentative) answers on regarding the new talents, and those we're still awaiting answers on, and figured I'd post it in case others were interested. And, of course, in case anyone can fill in the blanks on those that remain unanswered.

All answers should be considered tentative as many come from unknown sources, and are subject to change.

Netherwind Presence proc rate? Answered. The proc rate appears to be 5% as originally leaked, rather than the 15% reported briefly a couple weeks back. No explicit reference, more a preponderance of opinion and secondhand reports both here and at the wotlk wiki.

Netherwind Presence procs from Arcane Missiles? Answered. Netherwind Presence only has one chance to proc on an Arcane Missiles cast. Reference: [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Arcane Barrage coefficient? Answered. Currently using a 3-second 85.71% coefficient. Reference: [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Hot Streak mechanics? Answered. The counter resets after your third crit, before you cast the guaranteed crit. This means the guaranteed crit counts as your first crit in a second group of three. You have 10 seconds to cast the guaranteed crit. Private contact on this one; need public reference.

Burnout mechanics? Answered. Increases the critical strike damage to 162.5% before Ignite and 227.5% crits after Ignite. Reference: [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Living Bomb mechanics? Answered. 6 seconds, three ticks, one tick per 2 seconds, explosion coincides with third tick. Does not trigger the global cooldown. Private contact on this one; need public reference.

Living Bomb coefficients? Unanswered. What is the coefficient on the periodic damage? What is the coefficient on the explosion?

Winter's Grasp freeze mechanics? Answered. At present, Winter's Grasp does work on targets that cannot otherwise be frozen, allows Shatter to work for any Mage attacking the target, allows Ice Lance and Howling Blast to gain triple damage for any Mage/Death Knight attacking the target. It is generally believed that this will not be allowed to stand, however, as it has frightening implications for stacked Mage groups. Reference not found, but this behavior has been discussed extensively on both the EJ and wikidot forums.

Winter's Grasp hit mechanics? Unanswered. Does the +2% to hit affect only Melee and Ranged attacks (as is usually the case when spells are not specifically mentioned), or does it also affect spells?

Deep Freeze mechanics? Answered. Deep Freeze is a stun, and usable on anything that can be stunned. It cannot be broken except by abilities that can break a stun. It also counts as a freeze, with all the effects that implies (Shatter, Ice Lance, etc.) Reference: [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

Frostfire Bolt mechanics? Answered. This information is widely regarded as not merely subject to change, but virtually required to change. Frostfire Bolt currently benefits from any talent or debuff that affects Frost or Fire spells, regardless of what type of damage it is dealing (examples: Ignite, Ice Shards, Piercing Ice, Fire Power, Winter's Chill). It only benefits from talents and debuffs that affect Frost or Fire damage if it is actually dealing that type of damage (examples: Arctic Winds, Improved Scorch).

Frozen Rune Weapon mechanics? Partly answered. The debuff increases Frost damage dealt to the target by 1%, and stacks up to 10 times for +10%, with a 20 second duration. There is no information yet on proc rate. Reference: Obliterate This! | DeathKnight.info

 

SpaceDrake

So, I was shitting up the Sweet Informational Thread a little bit without meaning to, but I actually do have a concern about the talents we've currently seen in WotLK for fire mages. Specifically, aren't they not as good as what's available in the Arcane tree if you evenly dual-spec?

I've been getting up a bit of a comedy build on my current mage (insert elohel e-penis Pyroblast comments), and I decided to take the build up to level 80. This is what I ended up with:

War Pirate :: Mage WotLK Alpha Talent Tree

Between Critical Mass, Arcane Instability, and Pyromaniac, assuming Int crit scaling is like it is in BC and you have about 10% crit from Int without any talents at 80, this gives you a base critical rating in the low twenties before any buffs or crit rating from gear, and Arcane Instability has upped all your damage even further as well. Then for boss kills you get to wed Arcane Power to Molten Fury and Combustion to really haul out the big numbers, with the bonus of being able to lead that off with a nice little instant Pyroblast. Oh and once every ten spells or so, your spell costs no mana and your crit percentage jumps thirty, grats.

The real insanity comes from Spell Power, though. For two points all of your crititcals now do 50% more damage, and THEN Ignite is calculated. Burnout gives 25% more damage for five points and costs extra mana. I'm afraid I'm not seeing the appeal. Plus, you have to spec deep enough into the fire tree that you can't get Arcane Instability, so your crit rating is lowered.

So you've got Hot Streak, I guess, but ironically Hot Streak benefits hugely from having all three of the crit talents above, and you can't do that at 80. So with the current talents, isn't something like 36/35 better for overall DPS at 80?

 

Deedre

If you're in a group with a shammy and a boomkin I think you will find reasons to start using mage armor...

Mana pot mechanics aside, consumption rates look like they are going to go up dramatically in a properly stacked caster group -- and shadow priests aren't going to make up for that so much anymore. Also, fire mages have burnout to worry about on top of that. The real question mark is itemization and what mana pools are going to look like at 80.

 

Lhivera

You can read back in this thread for the explanation, but the short version is this: Burnout is a total crit damage increase, while Spell Power is only a critical strike bonus damage increase.

Spell Power + Ignite: (1 + 0.5 + 0.5 * 0.5) * 1.4 = 2.45
Burnout + Ignite: 1.5 * 1.25 * 1.4 = 2.625

This being the case, deep Fire builds soundly outperform hybrid builds.

 

toth

Given the recent change to hit rating affecting both melee and spells, I suspect Winter's Grasp would do the same. Of course that's pure speculation. It's likely that hit rating will scale differently for spells and melee such that +2% to hit would be worth more hit rating to melee than to casters -- but maybe that's what Blizzard intends.

 

Lhivera

As far as I know, the change to the gear-based Rating stats have no effect on the flat percentage increases provided by talents, buffs and debuffs. Note the text on Improved Faerie Fire:

...which specifies them separately.

If the debuff increased Hit Rating against the target by 50, it would absolutely affect both spells and physical attacks. As it increases by a percentage, I don't think there's any connection to the Rating changes.

 

Obeast

Thanks for that summary Lhivera -- it's very helpful.

One ability that didn't make your list is Incanter's absorption, whose mechanics are anything but transparent to me at the moment. Do we have any information about how it functions? Specifically, does damage that doesn't break the shield stack the spelldamage buff or overwrite it?

In an unrelated topic, these two tidbits, if unchanged, will make deep arcane pretty scary in PvP:

 

Deltrus

I not not totally sure that netherwind presence is 15%; it was 15% on one private server but then on another it was back at 5%. I am not sure why they were like that but 15% sounds alot more around where it should be then 5%.

 

Lhivera

Added to the list, thanks.

The 15% news was bubbling through the grapevine with a supposed source of F&F Alpha. But, as with all the others, when I say "answered" it should be taken as "to the best of our knowledge at present," and certainly not as gospel. If anyone has any more solidly-founded information that contradicts anything in the list (or supports it), please say so and I'll update it accordingly.

 

Gediablo

No it won't. You will be too vulnerable when arcane tree is lock-downed. I see nothing making arcane anywhere near as powerful as frost in Arena like PvP. Less gimped? - sure. Scary? - no.

 

◊ Vontre

Pretty sure NP is 5%.

Also, Gediablo, that is incredibly weak reasoning. Even ignoring that the primary arcane nuke is instant cast, school lockout is far from the only concern for pvp, and usually not the most important.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

spyroware

Actually ABar is a perfect pillar abusing spell something new to the Mage class. Invisibility becoming Vanish is again something new that opens up many scenarios. Being able to absolutely shift focus from you, making melee having to travel to the other target/rogues to switch targets and lose CP on you is awesome. We got Shatter Shield as an extra non-frost CC too, that's definetely more useful to non frost specs as I doubt it wont share DR with fnova/fbite.

I strongly believe that Arcane will be a competitive arena spec to deep frost. Unfortunately mage arena seems too confined to the limits TBC put - strong soloability but lack of overall synergy. I'm disappointed there isnt a talent that gives us 33% dispel resistance yet.

 

arch

Is school lockout still around?

 

Kel S'jet

Indeed, I can assure you, everyone reading these forums is very interested, that is why we are here
Though I find it puzzling that mostly all the topics you have deemed "Answered" are actually linking back to this very thread to statements made by a poster called Vontre, who, in his posts, makes either no mention of where he has attained his information, or cites testing done on 'private' servers. Now unless you know something about Vontre that we don't, I believe it is bad form to take the approach you have to this list of yours, at least as far as providing some evidence to what leads you to believe that some things are answered, and some not.

I do not need to remind everyone, most certainly any information gained from 'private' servers is almost completely inaccurate given the nature of what private servers are. Private servers do not magically give us insight into spell mechanics, in fact, on private servers you can have the spell in question have any mechanic you wish.

I can assure you, most of us are not taking this as gospel, we are however, more interested in exactly what this 'grapevine' is. Most definately we are more interested in exactly how you are gaining your information so that we can ourselves reach conclusions on what is or is not a particular spells mechanics.
Again, we are not here to either preach gospel, or take it. That kind of blather is best left on the official mage forums. We are here to debate and to figure out things for ourselves, and, if possible, to arrive at a commonly understood, well thought out conclusion where all parties are not only privy to the facts, but also to the logic applied to the facts that churns out conclusions.

I wish it were possible, but if we are to prevent such topics from devolving into a cesspool of unreliability, we will perhaps have to enforce a stricter sense of a functional method to our analysis. We cannot be satisfied with the 'well I heard it from some dude on a private server', or the 'yea I don't know where the info came from but it said such and such'.

To me, that is irresponsible.

Just as a footnote, this post is not directly targeted at you Lhivera. I am just quoting you to elucidate my point. Personally, I wish that the spells' mechanics turn out exactly as you have outlined in this thread. I just don't want to jump headfirst without making sure there is a net under me.