Finkum

Well Inner Fire is sufficiently different (shorter, charge-based, no alternative buff) that you wouldn't expect it to be modified in the same way.

Do the armor spells still have a mana cost/duration or do they now function more or less analagously to hunter aspects?

 

Melchior

Same mana cost and duration as before, they simply had the "Magic" classification dropped.

 

Lhivera

That's not really true, precisely because it is all about damage per cast time, and being able to deliver more damage in a shorter cast time results in more damage delivered on shorter fights. This is why haste is better than most people think it is even in small quantities, why frost mages often outperform expectations, etc. It's true that having more instant-cast damage (be it DOTS or not) doesn't provide as much of an advantage as many people believe, but it's certainly not true that it produces "little to no" advantage.

Reference Zaldinar's haste simulations for more info.

As a Hunter, I'm sure you're aware that if you don't need to be running full speed, it's perfectly possible to pace your movement to squeeze off autoshots between steps; it doesn't cancel instantly upon movement. Additionally, while Serpent Sting (assuming you're not the Scorpid Sting Guy) isn't worth casting in a rotation, you can certainly pop one off when moving since you're not using the GCD's for other shots.

 

PSGarak

Lhivera, are you talking about haste and clipping making different spells fit into segment of time between moves, or normal-people Damage Per Cast Time? Remember, the only instant cast spells a destruction warlock has are curses (which should already be up, be they utility or damage), conflag (which requires immolate and an otherwise-useless talent point, and can still actually be a damage decrease), and lifetap (which is what we normally use). Untalented corruption still requires standing around casting, so it's taking away from the higher-DPCT shadowbolt unless for some reason you won't get that last half-second of casting (quarter-second for incinerate).

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Lhivera

The former, which means the ability to deliver your damage in 1.5 second casts (even if not instant) provides an advantage in fights that involve movement.

As the situation is now, an Affliction Warlock is the only caster who has a significant advantage over other casters in a mobility fight. A Destruction Warlock has a small advantage over a Fire mage in a mobility fight, partly due to having Immolate, partly due to Shadow Bolt being a shorter cast than Fireball.

Come WotLK, matters will change significantly, with Arcane mages dealing by far the most damage in a mobility fight, Frost Mages probably hanging at or just above Affliction Warlocks (I estimate frost mages can deal 40-50% of their normal DPS on the move with Ice Lance spam and Winter's Grasp procs), and with Destro 'locks and Fire Mages still suffering the near-total hit to their DPS they suffer now.

 

• Suggestive

That specific portion of my post is what i was refering to when i said
In general, yeah affliction locks do have an advantage, unless its supremus-like movement though i really don't think its a big deal, mostly because DoT's do have durations. That might be different with arcane barrage however, it only has a 3 second cooldown right?

 

Kurojushi

WotLK Mage Spec Comparison Chart.xls

Updated the Spreadsheet once again, tons of new changes, new specs, much more accurate from before.

Changes:
Added Graphs for certain stats including;
1 Mage and 2 Mage versions of -
Spell Damage
Spell Crit
Spell Hit
Spell Haste
& Number of Mages

Changed Specs;
Fire is now Fire Shatter which loses just AOE capabilities in exchange for Shatter and Cold Snap (Now a leech spec).
Changed Burnout Ffb spec to have Shatter (Now a leech spec).

Simplified, corrected, and changed the formulas for;
WG uptime and Crit gained
Combustion (I still need the algebraic formula for Combustion PLEASE)
Hot Streak
Spell Critical Strike Damage Bonus (with options)

Options;
Removed option for variable Improved Water Elemental
Removed options for variable Winter's Grasp
Added option for variable Hot Streak
Added option for variable Burnout

Discovered;
There are 2 types of specs I see it, WG specs, and Leech specs. WG specs put up WG and increase the dps of all other mages, while Leech specs don't

contribute WG, but pull much higher dps when WG is up, meaning a balance of these 2 types will be needed.

To do:
Still need the algebraic formula for Combustion.
Need to perfect the WG uptime and crit gained formula, its very integery if you know what I mean.
Need to confirm how Hot streak would be calculated if the proc counts in the next rotation
Need to confirm all current variables still (not a big hurry).
Maybe some more graphs, and a way to make them automatically update when I make a change (it takes forever to do it manually).
Maybe make it look more simplistic so its more user friendly
Maybe make it into a website, or have someone do it for me.
Maybe calculate in rotations (I'm way to lazy to do that though).

If you find any more errors please tell me and I will fix them as soon as I can.
If you have any suggestions to make it better, please tell me, I would be happy to make it better.
If you want to use my spreadsheet for your own calculations, or make your own edits on it, thats fine.

 

Gediablo

Not so sure of the "matters will change significantly" part. Affliction is good for moving ofc, but would and should outperform everyone else if the fight contains more targets on top of it being a moving fight - like e.g. Vashj. Just looking at mages arcane mages (AB spammers that is) today is already much better than fire and frost in mobility fights due to the casttime being 1-1½ sec on AB (arcane usually regains more mana in such fights too). Arcane is simply superior to both fire and frost in fights filled with short burst on either 1 or several targets - same reason why arcane mages always should destroy fire and frost on trash damage, short boss fights, and aggro-resetting fights (these fights usually have either dps breaks, full burst or both). Frost also got an elemental already that can dps while the mage moves and frostbolts have shorter casttime than fireballs.

Basically I'm not disagreeing with you that in mobility fights (like pretty much all early TBC raid boss fights are) the order is going to be arcane>frost>fire - my point is just that that is how it already is today. DPS-spreadsheets and calculators will always make fire come out on top, since those are looking at long stationary tank and spank fights, for which fire is the ideal spec. But, as you have pointed out yourself, most fights aren't really those kind of fights. And that is fine in my eyes - ensures that 1 spec isn't THE spec for PvE.

 

Lhivera

Yes, but there is a huge difference in such fights between specs that get an advantage due to shorter casts allowing them to get a bit of extra damage into their DPS windows, and specs that can cast spells that deal meaningful damage while actually running. And that's what's changing, thanks to Barrage and Grasp. No, this will not change the order, but it will increase the difference (which is relevant because it increases the number of fights on which Arcane and Frost can outperform Fire).

Affliction is gaining a very small improvement in the form of the coefficient increase to Corruption and Siphon Life (the two damage DOTs it can cast while moving), but that's pretty much all Warlocks are receiving in terms of improving mobility.

My quick scribbly math suggests that, while moving, an Arcane Mage can deal a good 60-70% of his stationary DPS while moving (probably closer to 60%, I haven't refigured since word came that NP is 5% rather than 15%), and a Frost mage can deal about 45% of his stationary DPS while moving. An Affliction Warlock only deals about 40-50% of his damage with DOTs, and only two of them can actually be cast while moving. Hence my belief that Arcane will readily outperform Affliction in movement fights, with Frost at least matching it, and that's a pretty significant change.

 

Zaldinar

Its not really just "shorter cast time", as I realized here:

WoW Forums -> On Haste, Mobility, and DPS Advantage

But more about pockets of time within the timeline where one has an advantage over another, sometimes shorter doesn't necessarily mean better. The stock example of Frost vs Fire s easily shown with this timeline:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/timeline.jpg

Which shows periods in an unhasted (or really, equally hasted) frostbolt/fireball comparison where at equal DPS one or the other has an advantage. This concept is entirely true, but if we looked at a similar timeline (I'll construct one sometime early next week when I've got access to a pretty program to make stuff like that) that had a 2.9 second cast vs a 3.0 second cast (~3.4% haste), the 3.0 second cast has the mobility advantage in that case (see the big nasty graph from the thread for more details on what the pockets are). The true advantage depends on the length of the window to be expected (IE, you are assured to randomly be interrupted sometime within a 30, 40, 50, whatever second window), and the relative cast times of the two spells.

All that being said, the question of DoTs gaining an advantage in this case really depends on when they are cast. Imagine a situation where you have DoT spell A that ticks for 10 seconds at 100 DPS (200 point ticks every 2 seconds), and DD spell B that hits for 100 DPS every 2.5 seconds (250 damage hits), lets assume that the DoT spell takes 2.5 seconds to apply the same as the DD spell.

If we assume this timeline:

T+0.0 - DoT applied
T+2.0 - DoT Ticks
T+2.5 - DD hits
T+4.0 - DoT Ticks
T+5.0 - DD hits
T+6.0 - DoT ticks
T+7.5 - DD hits
T+8.0 - DoT ticks
T+10.0 - DD Hits, DoT ticks

of a basic rotation, with a 2.5 second break to reapply the DoT before the rotation starts again. Lets assume that we have a known interruption heading our way at T+7.5 that will hit at around T+10.0, Lets say we know this interruption will last for atleast 6 seconds. We have a choice at T+7.5, we can either stick to the rotation and send off another DD, or we can reapply the DoT, stomping 1 tick from the original cast.

Each DoT spell we apply does 100 DPS for 10 seconds (1000 damage total), each DD spell does 100 DPS per hit at 250 damage total. Which is a better use of that last 2.5 seconds? Sacrificing one tick of the DoT is a 20% hit to your DPM for that initial DoT spell (unless you're great with the timing for the reapply), but will net you an extra 550 damage over casting another DD spell (1000 damage on the DoT - 250 DD damage - 200 sacrificed tick).

If we introduce the same expected interruption at T+2.5 expected at T+5.0, the same scenario for DPS applies, refreshing the DoT will give you more total damage (not as much, but still more), but the DPM hit will be much more hefty.


All this said, its a gross oversimplification of DoT/Nuke rotations, and honestly I'm not overly familiar with exactly how Warlocks (especially Destro-Locks) do their rotations, but the concept of DoTing going into a known interruption is entirely sound in basic theory, whether or not it holds up when given real numbers is another question entirely. And I contend that in a situation of unknown interruption having DoTs ticking is an advantage, because once applied they effectively are free damage apart from the timeline of your DD nukes being interrupted.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

Last_Human

I believe a lot of the 'warlocks do dmg on the move' came from early TBC days where Afflication was able to keep up DoTs on multiple mobs (Mag/HKM) or get ticks/refresh during Groundslam and Silence on Gruul. Nowadays the dps advantage a warlock has is the ability to lifetap while moving and repositioning whereas a Mage can fireblast and maybe throw an icelance (which despite the complaining from some people is very easy to do on Brut/Felmyst/Twins despite the range.)
This advantage is somewhat shared by arcane mages at the moment where if the movement involved is long enough a fair amount of mana can be regenned. I think this will always be the trend with classes/specs that are mana inefficient and have 'mana regen downtime' be it in the form of lifetap or higher dpm spells.

Regarding the undispellable armors, it's a very positive change, certainly something that many people have thrown out there from time to time and makes the new mage armor significantly stronger, I guess molten shields would be fun to play with now too that random arcane shots don't plink off MA. Both my mage and lock will be looking forward to this change.

 

Pintofbrew

Zaldinar, you make assumptions about locks that are too simplified. Yes an affli loses less when he's interrupted while casting SB, but it's not all sugar and honey; Fiddling with uptimes is a complex and non-linear affair; When there's 4sec left till your UA/Corr runs out, that's exactly one shadowbolt cast plus one UA/Corr combo-cast that'll reapply it's self exactly before they run out. That's great. But when you get interrupted and lose 1sec of SB time, that means you're dropping 1sec of UA/Corr time. Because you've never raided as an affli, you assume DoTs are trivial in the "once cast, that damage is yours no matter what" sense, not figuring that perfecting reapplication is quite a complex affair, involving feedback from the situation. Do you tap? Do you SB? Do you D-pact? What if you're low on life, you need mana, your pet only has part of a Pact to give you? All this bull is shit an affli lock needs to work with, making the "wrong" choice punish him quite badly, where as us direct casters are not faced with such dilemas. We cast when we can, and we move when we have to. Period.

As for the "rotations" of Destrolocks, it's really simple:

1)CoD if possible, then
2)SB.
3) Repeat 2 until CoD detonates. Then repeat 1.

 

Zaldinar

Exactly why I disclaimed that whether or not it holds up with real numbers is entirely another question. The assumption that you're only ever faced with the decision "DD for X DPS, or DoT for X DPS" is obviously a gross oversimplification, but was meant to illustrate what I believe Lhivera was getting at.


Actually, I've never played a Lock past 30, I got bored with the one I started and migrated on to other alts. I actually believe that the observed benefit of Warlocks in mobility situations is less based on DoTs, and more on that Shadow Bolt is a 2.5 second cast spell talented, the same effect realized by Frost mages in mobility situations based on the nice timeline of advantage windows provided by a 3:2.5 second comparison, give the 2.5 second a tinge of haste (20.05% relative haste being the threshhold between a major advantage point in the timeline concept, so really any haste advantage that the 2.5 second holds over the 3.0 second), and they will gave a distinct advantage in a random interruption scenario.

Duly noted. Makes sense.



On the actual thread subject though (sorry for the derailment), with the 2.4.3 patch notes and PTR out, and dispel-proof armor spells for Locks/Mages, mage armor + Magic Absorption looks like a very nasty caster counter with the expansion, at the cost of making bubble spells easier targets for dispel effects of course.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

Pintofbrew

It's about time we got dispell protection on our armors. Many of our defensive tools revolve around our armors. Attack slow and increased armor, damage reflection, stun and frostbite procs and even the added magic resistance are all critical to our performance in PvP. The fact that any focus at all will strip us bare of this fundamental mechanic is more than a little annoying and forces the PvP class ballance to be focused around not having armor, but take into account that you may have armor.

It's about time the mage became master of magic to be honest.

 

Thegoodman

I have always felt that dispel, purge, and now arcane shot mechanics were unfair. Hunters rely on aspects as much as a Mage relies on armors, yet his are not dispellable.

They need to make 2 different "classes" of buffs that are essentially long term (typical raid buffs) and short term (HoTs, temporary shields, etc). Purge, Devour Magic, Dispel, and Arcane shot should only remove short term spells and the long term buffs should have an aura type of effect that is only removed upon death.

 

alienangel

Yes, I did acknowledge stutterstepping, in my first post on this topic IIRC. The observation there was that nothing in TBC other than Supremus features movement where we can afford to pause, since we're generally only ever moving to avoid something blowing up (disclaimer: I have yet to see Muru and Kil'Jaeden). I'm not going to stop every 1.6s while running to a portal, not going to stop every 1.6s when there's an encapsulate next to me, not going to stop every 1.6s when I have burn, definitely not going to stop every 1.6s when I'm Conflagged, and moving out of IC AoE doesn't even take a full 1.6s anyway.

Serpent Sting is a potentially expensive source of 1000 damage over 15 seconds yes, but I'm generally more likely to spend the ~2-4s of each movement to refresh hunter's mark and arcane shot, since the 1.5s GCD I saved from not having to refresh HM in the future is worth ~3000 damage compared to Serpent Sting's 1000.

 

alvinrod

Based on Lhivera's post ([Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion) it would appear as though CoW is getting an attack speed reduction that is greater than Thunderclap which makes it incredibly useful. Since the wikidot site is down at the moment I can't check to see if both Demoralizing Should and CoW are still equal at level 80, but assuming that they are, it makes more sense to have all 3 warlocks using a utility curse.

I think have three warlocks will make it easier on the raid in some ways, but with the CoE/CoS merge, it's conceivable that a raid could get by with only using two warlocks. This doesn't solve the problem of some warlock being able to use CoD if you bring enough, but as long as the damage gain from doing so isn't obscene, it probably doesn't matter in the long run.

 

Pintofbrew

You do not know if TC is also getting an equivalent size increase to match the new CoW. The current version of CoW, as well as a number of changes accross multiple classes, seem to be a clear indication that it's blizz's intent to make as many abilities as possible "doable" from multiple sources.

Having a warlock effect provide another buff which supersedes what is currently the most powerful warrior debuff seems extremely unlikely, and absolutely contrary to the exact same mentality that is giving us CoE/CoW merging next patch.

I wouldn't bet a single buck on CoW being bigger than any attackspeed slow effect any other class can provide.

 

• Suggestive

The warlock CoW is not a better speed decrease than TC, its the exact same thing as talented TC. Improved CoW does not increase the effectiveness of the 20% attack speed penalty.

 

Pintofbrew

I believe that was looked at a few weeks back. Probably just the gentlemen in this particular thread aren't up to date with the exact minutiae of said talent/spell. The way the post was worded I believed perhaps there was new data. Silly me.

 

PSGarak

http://urlshort.com/wotlk/site/spellsearch.php (wikidot isn't the only resource available)

Untalented CoW (rank 9) is 350, untalented Demo Shout (rank 8) is 410. That makes talented CoW 420, and talented Demo Shout 574. It looks like, compared to rank 8, CoW gains only the dehaste, but its attack power reduction remains constant.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I'm kind of surprised there aren't new talents/abilities that greatly improve the Aoe performance of mages.

There's a legitimate gripe about single target dps between mages and warlocks, but that disparity is tiny compared to the difference in aoe performance between seed of corruption and well, everything else.

I'd like to see a talent that's a large mana cost reduction for mage aoes, as well as a damage upgrade.

 

Pintofbrew

Beef, after 2.4 arrived with the 50% AoE cap increase to Arcane Explosion, practically we've overtaken locks in AoE prowess. Not to mention the two new AoE tools in Fire's repertoire in WotLK. Living Bomb (which, being a buff, once cast adds to DPS) and World In Flames.

Sadly, WiF which is absolutely awesome, doesn't particularly lend it's self to sustained AoE unless it's of the Flamestrike variety. This, however, is assuming FS will be superior to simply slapping on Living Flame and AEing.

Frost gains an even bigger snare through Blizzard due to Chilled to the Bone, making the new frost-spec blizzard the most slowing snare in the game, reducing you to 15% base move, plus 15% to freeze via Frostbite, if applicable.

Arcane, sadly, gains the least; Practically, the only thing Arcane gains in AoE terms is a 2-3% crit increase from Potent Spirit. Then again, AP-IV-PoM-Flamestrike, with AE spam after it has always been absolutely monster AoE DPS.

AoE should not be mana efficient by nature. Though, currently, some AoEs are more efficient than others. I don't see any reason to believe that mage AoE will be anything but the best of the bunch in WotLK. The devs have expressed thats' the direction they intend to see the class moving to and WiF and LF look like the tools to do it.

 

Sancus

As long as it's acceptable for you to be in melee range of the things you're aoeing, and mana isn't an issue. Either of those two things make Warlocks the superior class, of course.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

◊ Lord BEEF

You make some good points. My perspective was from the sunwell fights. Mages can do well on felmyst but often request innervates.

They can't really sustain it on m'uru (beyond a flamestrike periodically) or Kil'jaedan though. Having three warlocks to seed is a key part of making Kil'jaedan easier in our strategy.

A big issue is that AoE being inefficient goes out the window when I can lifebloom for 176 mana and restore ~5000 mana on a warlock. I'm not sure what can really be done about that though besides nerfing seed of corruption which I wouldn't want to see happen.