My feeling right now is that whatever change is planned for spirit is going to make it VERY potent.
We know theres going to be a LARGE step up in spell costs, coupled with a nerfing of VT. People have put out arguments to try and justify this with things like 'buffed up JoW/BoW and mana tides for entire raids'. Whilst those are going to count for a lot, they cannot be the only justification for the spell costs? Why? because the game isn't 1 big raid. We get hit with the spell costs the moment we hit new ranks in wrath. We still have to level, quest and do instances with those spell costs with no perceivable benefit to mana regeneration for 5 and 10mans over what we have now. the mana has to come from somewhere, and it has to go somewhere. Its going a lot faster on spells that are used universally, it need sto come a lot faster from an equally universal source.
TLDR: ~+50% spell cost in WotLK should equal ~50% increase in personal mana regen to make it up. no external source making up the difference can really be justified.
hmm from what ive heard, there is not going to be a change to spirit like it was to stam in tbc. The only thing i know is that itemization for healers and dpsers is going to be the same (they are removing spell dmg and healing and changing it into spell power, increasing the coefficent on healing spells). This, i think, means that casters will be getting a lot more spi: some items might have, say, stam/int/spi and spell power, which might make them sought after by both healers and dpsers. Other than that tough i think they dont have any other change to spirit planned, so it seems weird if, as you say, the mana cost on spells will skyrocket like that
I disagree, Aleema.
As far as i have understood the blueposts, the announcement was that spirit will be of more use in the expansion.
If i got it right, the announcement you're talking about was concerning gear for hybrids.
Hybrids will no longer need to have 3 gears, one gear for each possible spec, instead healing will be used as spelldmg with 1/3 multiplier (as far as i understood). I don't know how this will work with melee specs.
Anyway i am sure that warlocks and mages will not wear the same nonset items as healers.
I think the situation will be close to what it is now, with the difference that every item will have (more) spirit.
Ps: English is not my mother language, hope it's readable.
I think spirit is supposed to be more important/sought after and most likely will have a bigger effect or possibly another effect in addition to it's current one but you won't see the TBC for boost for stamina, for spirit. It may be thrown around more liberally and be more useful but it will still cost the same in the item budget from everything i have read.
As far as the healing vs. damage gear; like Aleema said they are consolidating healing and damage into spell power and most likely increasing the coefficient on heals greatly. From a pvp standpoint I am somewhat afraid that it will just being that much harder to 1v1 a healer in pvp. For pve, this most likely means that not only will caster hybrids use the same gear for dps casting and healing but in general all clothies will be look for essentially the same gear.
I wonder how hit will work out as it has absolutely no healing benefit and is absolutely necessary for boss dps for offensive casters. Would be kind of interesting if they made heals resistible and then allowed healers to achieve 100% hit for heals or something to that effect. The outcome would be needing the exact same gear regardless of spec/class for offensive casters and healers.
just a quick thought on mana regen mechanics-
My feeling right now is that whatever change is planned for spirit is going to make it VERY potent.
We know theres going to be a LARGE step up in spell costs, coupled with a nerfing of VT. People have put out arguments to try and justify this with things like 'buffed up JoW/BoW and mana tides for entire raids'. Whilst those are going to count for a lot, they cannot be the only justification for the spell costs? Why? because the game isn't 1 big raid. We get hit with the spell costs the moment we hit new ranks in wrath. We still have to level, quest and do instances with those spell costs with no perceivable benefit to mana regeneration for 5 and 10mans over what we have now. the mana has to come from somewhere, and it has to go somewhere. Its going a lot faster on spells that are used universally, it need sto come a lot faster from an equally universal source.
TLDR: ~+50% spell cost in WotLK should equal ~50% increase in personal mana regen to make it up. no external source making up the difference can really be justified.
1) There has been no mention of change to any stat, including spirit. This is concurrent with:
2) Costs have increased across the board, but not by 50% as you stated, much closer to 12-14%. There's research earlier in this thread that alludes to it.
The only thing that has increased significantly is warlock spells, and they've increased in such an order of magnitude so as to fall exactly in-line with our increases if you take their mp5 gain from their new armor into account.
This change makes sense so as to shift caster's play-style into an energy-interactive type of game-play. Hunters mana source affects their play. Rogue energy management affects their play. Warrior rage affects their play. Warlock and Mage mana pretty much does not. All our mana interaction can be summed up with "LT, Managem, Evo & Pot".
The current way fire-spec treats mana (ie: Got mana? Ignore) is taking away adaptability and complexity from our game, just like 0/21/40 lock is taking away complexity from theirs. Increase in mana cost is to assault exactly this tendency and to make us more resource-dependent, in line with other classes, so we can micro-manage our resources as an additional level of complexity.
Let's not go again into why VT is long-overdue a nerf. I won't even comment on "we still have to level in wrath". You're playing one of the easiest classes to level with and you're complaining about having to drink every third/fourth/Nth mob? Have you any idea of what leveling is like for tanks or healers? What's the complaint all about for 5 and 10-mans? I drink less than 10 waters per 5-man and I don't play with a regen class. Are you really complaining you'll have to spend 10sec drinking per three pulls? The mana does not "need to come faster", what you meant was "it needs to come faster, so we can keep playing at this 'I don't care about mana' pace.". This will not happen, things are WAI, and we're moving away from that mentality of "Raid = molten armor, because mana is irrelevant".
I wonder how hit will work out as it has absolutely no healing benefit and is absolutely necessary for boss dps for offensive casters. Would be kind of interesting if they made heals resistible and then allowed healers to achieve 100% hit for heals or something to that effect. The outcome would be needing the exact same gear regardless of spec/class for offensive casters and healers.
For shamans, hit has become a near redundant stat due to elemental oath. 1 point in it will give them +50% hit chance on more than half of their spells on a good cast cycle. Its not 100% reliable, but the uptime is sufficient that hit becomes a poor gear choice versus crit.
For druids... From what I can see they have +5% hit in their tree now. With ToW factored in that'll take them up to 8%, meaning 8% needed from gear Not too hard to socket, if hit rating scales reasonably.
Shadow priests, I would assume will be taking mage/warlock cloth (which will still need +hit). So either spell power cloth will have a lot of yellow sockets on, or there will still be seperate sets for DPS and healer cloth.
Last edited by Jonny_Monroe : 07/07/08 at 7:59 AM.
1) There has been no mention of change to any stat, including spirit. This is concurrent with:
2) Costs have increased across the board, but not by 50% as you stated, much closer to 12-14%. There's research earlier in this thread that alludes to it.
The only thing that has increased significantly is warlock spells, and they've increased in such an order of magnitude so as to fall exactly in-line with our increases if you take their mp5 gain from their new armor into account.
This change makes sense so as to shift caster's play-style into an energy-interactive type of game-play. Hunters mana source affects their play. Rogue energy management affects their play. Warrior rage affects their play. Warlock and Mage mana pretty much does not. All our mana interaction can be summed up with "LT, Managem, Evo & Pot".
The current way fire-spec treats mana (ie: Got mana? Ignore) is taking away adaptability and complexity from our game, just like 0/21/40 lock is taking away complexity from theirs. Increase in mana cost is to assault exactly this tendency and to make us more resource-dependent, in line with other classes, so we can micro-manage our resources as an additional level of complexity.
Let's not go again into why VT is long-overdue a nerf. I won't even comment on "we still have to level in wrath". You're playing one of the easiest classes to level with and you're complaining about having to drink every third/fourth/Nth mob? Have you any idea of what leveling is like for tanks or healers? What's the complaint all about for 5 and 10-mans? I drink less than 10 waters per 5-man and I don't play with a regen class. Are you really complaining you'll have to spend 10sec drinking per three pulls? The mana does not "need to come faster", what you meant was "it needs to come faster, so we can keep playing at this 'I don't care about mana' pace.". This will not happen, things are WAI, and we're moving away from that mentality of "Raid = molten armor, because mana is irrelevant".
I'm sorry if my post came accross as a complaint, it was intended purely as observation. Also, it wasn't intended as mage-specific; just something of interest to the mage class. Other classes are also getting a warlock-like increase in spell costs with seemingly no method of compensating the extra mana. In 10mans we still have to think about our mana (at least as arcane) - not all of us out-gear ZA by more than a full tier. I do agree that VT was overpowered, but thats not the whole picture. And on the subject of spirit, the mage class isn't the whole picture either.
Again, this is just an observation, not a complaint about the state of our class. Please accept my sincere appologies if I offended you, brew.If you want, i'll just go delete it.
For shamans, hit has become a near redundant stat due to elemental oath.*snip*
Hit was always a redundant stat for elemental shamans. The most hit gained in the game, Elemental Precision gives 6%, ToW gives a further 3%, and as they all spec 20 resto for Tidal Mastery, they also get Nature's Guidance which also gives another 3% for a grand total of 12% to hit from talents. Not to mention half of them are Dranei.
Leaving a whopping 49hit rating to cap out. Before taking El. Oath into account. PvE shamans will probably not spec El. Oath to start with as it's currently considered a anti-CloS talent mostly, and miss is more or less irrelevant to them due to being over-capped once out of blue gear.
Edit: God, no. I'm not offended and by no means should you delete anything. Discussion is what forums are for.
VT and VE could become raid-wide along with totems and shouts. The addition of heavy threat reduction to the shadow tree hints at it(shadow affinity 25%, shadowform 30%).
It's not the spell costs that are going to be the issue. It's the boomkin + shaman. That's what's going to press our pools to the limit, haste buffs. The nuclear chicken is effectively a 20% spell cost increase by itself.
It's not the spell costs that are going to be the issue. It's the boomkin + shaman. That's what's going to press our pools to the limit, haste buffs. The nuclear chicken is effectively a 20% spell cost increase by itself.
we still don't know if thats a full 20% for 10 seconds or '20% on the next spell cast within 10 seconds'. Beta wording is classically inacurate.
if its a flat 10second buff then its basically passive 20% haste, if its next spell only, then I can only imagine arcane missiles being able to keep it up 100%.
This is all assuming that the internal cooldown of the ability is a trivial thing. with WF (the closest melee equivelant), the ICD is 3 seconds, but melee hit a lot faster than spells, so its a hard example to make any guesses from. At the very worst, i'd say 30second cooldown (duration*3, 30% uptime), at best, i'd say 5-6 seconds (ruining synergy with combustion, but still a good effect).
Johnny, I'm going with 20% passive haste on the theory that Blizzard really really really wants us to start using moonkins in raids.
Edit: if you interpret it otherwise, you've just turned them into a feathered, screeching version of the Ashtongue rep trinket. I don't think that's going to quite cut it for our moonkin friends.
Other classes are also getting a warlock-like increase in spell costs with seemingly no method of compensating the extra mana.
Really? Which classes and spells? I was under the impression that most of us were seeing cost increases in the 40-55% range, while Warlocks were seeing cost increases in the 80% range.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Moonkins gain 4% hit of one talent and 3% raidwide hit from IFF. Hit might just be shoved to sockets and rings/trinkets for 25man raids.
6% from group/raid buffs or 7% with draenai is possible for everyone in the current wotlk and almost all casters got solo +hit talents.
Bolded the part you should remove. Every class that has a spell-damage component will have a +hit modifier somewhere.
Locks have both affli and destro.
Mages, all schools.
Priests, shadow AND holy damage. ( Focused Power - Spell - World of Warcraft )
Shamans, moonkins, both too.
Palas are looking like they're getting a gear-rework to remove +spell from their list, and either way both them and enh shamans will gain from the "melee hit works for spells too" change that's incoming.
It feels rather odd that as haste becomes more prevalent in the game, at the same time hit is looking like it's becoming redundant. Barring some massive scaling issue, that is. As stands 12.4 hit rate for 1% is massively cheaper in item budget than 22.4 crit rate for 1% crit. Who knows if in WOTLK this doesn't become 50C for 1% crit and 64H for 1% hit? Weirder things have happened, though I suspect Crit rate will always be bad DPS value simply because it increases adaptability in games-mechanics terms and that should be penalized somehow with reduced overall effect. Edit: With the exception of fully talent-influenced FFB, which quite likely will be the only spec in the game to scale so madly with Crit.
This doesn't, of course, preclude the chance that hit will be even more expensive in item budget.
Well at the moment the alpha client provides 90 int per 1% crit (for mages), 42.9 crit rating per 1% crit, and 24.5 hit rating per 1% hit at 80. Of course the official alpha servers are capped below 80, so that information is from private servers and thus comes with the usual caveats, but those numbers match the same *relative* scaling as the current numbers, so I suspect they'll at least be close.
Assuming they finally fix ghost hit (haven't seen any data from the current alpha on whether or not it's still in effect right now, but if frostbolts are partially resisting, I suspect the mechanic that lead to ghost hit is gone and thus the bug is also gone), fire and frost mages will both need 13% hit from elsewhere than their talents. Even adding the new 7% overall +hit from raids (incl. draenei) that's 6% more, or 147 hit rating on new gear. Not a paltry amount, though it's hard to say without knowing what kind of ilvl we're going to be seeing on that gear, and how much greater a proportion of the new item points to spend will be going to spirit than they do currently.
That's not to mention 10-man raids, in which you can't rely on all those raidwide hit buffs being present. 319 hit rating would be required to cap if NO raid buffs were there and the current rating conversions remain the same. That's rather hefty. I think it's pretty early to be calling hit redundant.
Edit: If Blizzard does fix the issue with 10-man raids not containing these "extra free hit" mechanics somehow and makes a real play at making hit redundant, I believe it could just be another step toward gear-homogenization. They're trying to push one piece of gear that every class that wears that gear type can use. However, one big barrier to making that happen is spell hit being useless for healers and mp5 being ultimately less useful for dpsers. If they marginalize hit and mp5, they can put less of those on gear and have less pieces that won't be broadly desired.
Int-spellcrit scaling isn't to be trusted; as int rises the crit gained per int drops. It can vary from 71 to 85 int per point. Either way, even so, it's scaling a lot less than either hit or crit, which seem to have about the same ratio as they do now, making their value-per-point comparatively with each other roughly the same as it is on live.
This could well be for two reasons:
1) Crit per int gained is specifically buffed so as to make it more significant. This ties in with "increased mana consumption accross the board" in making Arcane more int-centric. Or:
2) They haven't bothered to include int-crit scaling with alpha files and it will be changed soon, pending plate-spelldmg and melee/spell haste/hit/crit interaction, as well as tweaking based on int/agi-based spell/physical crit.
Int-spellcrit scaling isn't to be trusted; as int rises the crit gained per int drops.
Are you proposing that the amount of crit gained at a given level from a certain amount of intellect is NOT linear as every piece of data I've ever seen says it is? Even my own testing has always maintained a constant 1% crit per 80 intellect, period, without fail. The only exception at lvl 70 is warlocks who require 82 int for 1% crit instead of 80, oddly.
You can't just look at the crit provided from int listed in the tooltip, since classes each have a different "crit at 0 int and 0 crit rating" constant that affects that value and would make scaling look nonlinear if ignored. Locks have a 1.701% constant, mages have a 0.91% constant.
If you have 500 int and go to 580 or 1000 int and go to 1080, either way you've just gained 1% crit (if you're not a warlock, slightly less if you are). This is pretty easily testable by having lvl 70 people look at what 40 int AI gives them. Everyone but locks should see 0.5% crit, regardless of their current amount of intellect. (0.55% if they also have Kings making it act as +44.)
If you're saying this is a new change in the alpha, that's very interesting and I hadn't read about that. I know that's not how it works in TBC.
Oh, on a side note, I am not sure anyone noticed, but seems we got a massive PvE nerf to Mage Armor no longer giving 30% mana regeneration but reducing all magic effects on you by 50%( which is a HUGE PvP buff).
Lets say you have MA on. A SP casts VT. A 15sec DoT that ticks every 3 sec.
You just reduced the DoT to 7.5sec, however it ticks every 3, thus it would tick ONLY 2 times, and the third tick would get eaten away by MA.
Does this work?
Also, I am not sure why everyone is claiming Burnout is bad? Just run 2 calculations: 1% of your mana pool is lets say 100 mana( Taking a 10k MP for ease).
You Crit, get loads of extra damage, pay 100 extra mana, and get 30% mana off the spell back from MoE. 30% of the final FB rank I found on wotlkwiki.info is:
Fireball rank 16 : 655 mana, 888 to 1132 fire damage, 116 fire damage over 8 sec.
So you regenerate 200ish mana from MoE, and reduce that number by 1% of your mana pool, which shouldn't even get close to over 15k. Still a solid mana gain.
Lets say you have MA on. A SP casts VT. A 15sec DoT that ticks every 3 sec.
You just reduced the DoT to 7.5sec, however it ticks every 3, thus it would tick ONLY 2 times, and the third tick would get eaten away by MA.
Does this work?
It should.
Also, I am not sure why everyone is claiming Burnout is bad? Just run 2 calculations: 1% of your mana pool is lets say 100 mana( Taking a 10k MP for ease).
You Crit, get loads of extra damage
Two points in Spell Power result in 245% Fire Crits with Ignite with no mana penalty.
Five points in Burnout result in 227.5% Fire Crits with Ignite with a mana penalty.
That's why it's so bad: because it results in both lower DPS and lower efficiency than a 32-33 point Arcane/Fire hybrid.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
It's not 1% but 5% of your Mana, that's quite a lot for no overwhelming dps gain.
And Burnout and MoE are completely independent, no use saying Burnout is good because MoE still gives you some Mana - which it actually isn't, Burnout outweighs MoE.
Sigh, I wish the misinformation would stop floating around.
The 1% penalty does NOT increase per point, only the crit bonus damage. 1/5 burnout is +5% critical strike bonus damage for -1% total mana, 5/5 burnout is +25% critical strike bonus damage for -1% total mana.
That doesn't make it any less worthless given even without the mana cost Spell Power has it beat hands down.
07/06/08, 9:08 PM
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