Lhivera

The 1% cost does not increase with more talent points.

Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror. -Ming the Merciless

 

Tharia

Sorry, the talent calculator I used was outdated. point stands, though, with slight alterations ^^

 

Iliyan

How can you say that arc/fire is better then deep fire when it isn't.

Burnout is much better then spellpower simply because it is in the fire tree, and doesn't require loads of wasted points in arcane tree. Also, burnout affects ingite too, don't forget that.

The thing that IS puzzling me is this, why would you go to burnout in the fire tree, when you can get meditation in the arcane tree for little to no losses but icy veins.

This is a sample build:
Yarr! Tools :: Mage 8472

Excellent mana regeneration abilities, great sustained dps.

 

Lhivera

Er...Spell Power affects Ignite, too. The crit sizes I posted previously included Ignite. 245% for arc/fire, 227.5% for deep fire. Read upthread, the math's already been done, and it's conclusive: you get more DPS by climbing the Arcane tree than you do by going to Burnout. The essential problem is that Spell Power provides twice the crit damage increase that Burnout does, for 2 points instead of 5, without a mana penalty. And in the process of getting to it, you get a larger crit chance increase, as well.

Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror. -Ming the Merciless

 

◊ manly

Congratulations, you've come up with a build that hardly increases dps and gains more mana as fire spec. Exactly what fire spec doesn't want. You don't remotely want or need 18 in arcane unless you have 5/5 burnout, which you don't have.

2/2 spell power gives in total 245% fire crits.
5/5 burnout gives 227.5% fire crits and costs extra mana.

33/38/0 - Yarr! Tools :: Mage 8472
2/58/11 - Yarr! Tools :: Mage 8472

You can move the 3/3 pyromaniacs into any combination of {combustion, molten fury} for 33/38/0. 1 combustion 2/3 pyromaniacs is probably optimal, although my hatred for combustion runs deep (particularly without molten fury).

In short, here is the difference between the 2 builds:
33/38/0 vs 2/58/11
gains clearcasting, 3/3 meditation, 4/5 arcane mind, presence of mind, arcane power, 2/3 arcane potency, 3/3 arcane instability, 2/2 spell power
loses 3/3 elemental precision, icy veins, combustion, 2/2 molten fury, 5/5 empowered fireball, 3/3 hot streak, 5/5 burnout, dragon's breath, living bomb, 2/3 world in flames

notice how you lose relatively few to gain a lot from arcane ?

--- edit
The problem with the fire talents is that many of them are pure fluff or flat out worse than arcane counterparts. running through the same list but striking out pointless talents or 'equal' stuff:

gains clearcasting, 3/3 meditation, 4/5 arcane mind, presence of mind, arcane power, 2/3 arcane potency, 3/3 arcane instability, 2/2 spell power
loses 3/3 elemental precision, icy veins, combustion, 2/2 molten fury, 5/5 empowered fireball, 3/3 hot streak, 5/5 burnout, dragon's breath, living bomb, 2/3 world in flames

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Kel S'jet

Post link please. Sifting through a 70+ page thread is extremely daunting. I would like to see your math and your assumptions.

Thanks

 

Lhivera

Wasn't my math or assumptions, I'm afraid, so I don't recall where in the thread it was handled. If you'd like to pick a set of assumptions, I can whip up the Fireball numbers for both specs though.

Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror. -Ming the Merciless

 

Skallewag

Yeey, Lhivera numbers! You cant have to much of that. Ill have a double Lhivera meal with extra numbers on however incanters absorbtion can turn manashield into a usefull tool for DPS/DPM controll.

Jokes aside, the thread is huge by now and if you have the time for it some numbers on these two potential specs would be very interesting. Another thought to keep in mind is that unless there is something we dont know about spirit mechanics yet the new fire tree still has no synergy with this stat. Perhaps firemages wont need to bother but we do know that blizz plans to streamline gear and in theory we will be competing for the same items healers do. To me that kinda sounds like there will be even more spirit in our gear pool and embracing that sounds like a good plan. But then again perhaps it wont matter or I might just be plain wrong.

 

Ferrador

just a quick assumption. if HS works as its stated wouldnt that mean it could crit infinitive times on aoe?
lets say u use flamestrike on 6 targets und it crits on 3 of them, so the next one is definitly a crit, but a critting flamestrike crits on all targets and would cause another HS to apply.
maybe they changed this but if not, this would be damn overpowered.

 

◊ manly

Please no. Don't start working through the numbers until we get anything reliable. So far the thread is just an unproductive rehash of what has been said long ago, and countless redundant questions. Better not making it worse.

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Skallewag

All numbers are not crap Manly. We do have a pretty good idea what talent trees will look like and you can make a rough sketch what effect that will have on a fireball. Since its one firespec compared to another firespec the final value of fireball wont matter to much since you can still see how the both specs affect it.

What we cant tell is what our manapool, manaregen and general statbalance will look like, but not needed to se what effects these two specs will have on it. Also some numbers of that kind can give us a rough idea what we would need from our future stat pools to make things work.

early numbers are not pointless as long as you dont overdo it with them and know wich ones matter.

 

Jarlyn

Yeah, we have a good idea. We had a good idea two, if not three, weeks ago. Until new data/information becomes available, this thread has pretty much its course.

 

Pintofbrew

Xentropy: You are correct about Int, it remains constant. For some reason I was under the impression it scaled to some extent. I remember observing it while fucking around with 2.2 arcane, but I suspect the scaling was in fact an artifact of Arcane Mind instead.

And Skallewag, Manly did not say numbers were crap, he said they are unreliable. Don't misinterpret. There is very little actual product in this thread and manufacturing supposed outputs which are supposedly accurate to a very fine discrimination is pointless. We're using a blurry, blacked out shaken snapshot to try and assume a 2h long feature film.

"Do no offend the chair leg of truth. It is wise and terrible. Continue."
-Spider Jerusalem

 

Skallewag

Aye, call it scrying, fortune telling whatever. Its unreliable but fun none the less. We´re all theoryloving mages here and this page wouldnt be anywhere near the current 70 pages if people here didnt like flipping ideas back and forth wrong as they may turn out to be. I totally realize theres better things I could do with my time than trying to anticipate what I will find out eventually anyway. But I still like doing it.

 

Deedre

On the bright side, the Wrath Wiki peeps are going to flood us with information very soon, when the Beta is out the NDA on alpha gets lifted and they claim they've been holding back on a ton of stuff. However, al lot of that may be somewhat dated and moot by whatever happens in Beta.

 

nathanbp

You seem to imply here (as does the wording on Arcane Focus on the talent tree here), that the hit from Arcane Focus applies to all spells not just arcane spells. Has this been confirmed in any way? (Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't recall seeing it.)

 

Pintofbrew

I believe you're misinterpreting. I don't think Arc. Focus has ever been applied to all spells.

Either way his goal was to point out your spec design was exceptionally bad and missed almost everything worth any non-negligible improvement WotLK brings so far. Which is true.

I respectfully differ in oppinion with Manly over his 33/38/0, as I'd undoubtably prefer a MF and a 3/5 emp Fball spec too. Yarr! Tools :: Mage 8472 . I'd also probably go for Pris Cloak instead of 2/3 Arc Potency, on the assumption that BL-Comb-AP-MF-PoM-Pyro->Fball spam would be a lovely little agro-generator which would possibly make Invis an absolute must for bossfights.

"Do no offend the chair leg of truth. It is wise and terrible. Continue."
-Spider Jerusalem

 

◊ manly

Ah yeah definately, I got mislead by the color coding that site uses. Why does it allow you to put more than 71 talent points is beyond me. Indeed my build was off. Yours is too, you can put pyroblast in PWF. Also you can move another point from master of elements towards PWF. You won't need the extra mana with all the arcane talents anyway.

Yarr! Tools :: Mage 8472

This build just shows even more how small the cost comparing the specs.

And for what its worth, I don't consider elemental precision much of a dps increase. If the trend of tbc of exchanging stats for free hit rating continues, ill gladly keep giving a virtual near nil value to elemental precision.

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Zaldinar

Several potential ways to treat it:

1) Each target in the AoE counts as a new crit for purposes of burnout, if you hit 5 targets with it, targets 1 and 2 crit, 3 doesnt, 4 and 5 do, you have two Hot Streak charges towards your next potential crit, one more and you're assured another crit.

2) Each spell itself counts, and if you get any crits it increments the counter once

3) Each target counts towards one charge, but a given spell cannot consume a charge it creates, thus spell 1 gets three crits, spell 2 gets full benefit

etc etc. This will need some research once it goes officially testable.


There was a leaked note about them fixing a bug involving hotstreak giving infinite crits, so I would assume that after three charges, the next crit does not continue, and potentially (probably) does not start the next hotstreak counter. Whether or not this means also that AoE is effected in some whacky way, no idea.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...Id=10043085137
Proven BETA TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a Beta near you

 

Akston

Why exactly wouldn't you take molten fury with the 33/38 build?

Edit: Never mind. I really need to start reading to the end of the thread before responding to something.

 

◊ manly

If anything, we should prepare building up the list of questions that needs to be answered for when wotlk goes out. I think its a lot more productive than deliberating on possible builds based on possible talents.

- How does Arcane Focus works vs Arcane Blast ?
- What is the Arcane Barrage coefficient ?
- What talents affect Frostfire Bolt ?
- Does Winter's Grasp affect all bosses or is there some cases where it doesn't ?
- (How long does Winter's Grasp lasts ?)
- Does Winter's Grasp works across mages ?
- How does Burnout affects coefficients ?
- How does Burnout work with aoe spells ?
- Does casting Living Bomb trigger a GCD ?
- How much damage can I expect from Living Bomb ?
- What are the new AOE caps ? (not only for mages)
- Hot Streak. (internal cooldown ? aoe ? counts procs as part of requirement ?)
- Does World In Flames increase the AOE cap ?
- When does Netherwind Presence procs ? (upon cast or upon landing)
- If Netherwind Presence procs during cast, will it work ont he following spell assuming chain-casting or will server delay play into this ?

- How much of an impact will the VE nerf affect mage mana regen ?
- What are the final values of the moonkin spell-fury buff? (whatever the name really)
- How will threat scale ?
- What are the new available enchantments ?
- What are the new available inscriptions ?
- Is 2pcT5 nerfed ?
- Were there any changes to casting mechanics ? (GCD still 1s, server side queues? etc.)

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Skallewag

Dont forget manashield and some related stuff.

*What MP/DMG ratio will manashield have & what HP:MP ratio will lv.80 mages have?
*Will magic absorbtion work only on full resists & will players se more full resists instead of partials like in BC?
*what is the new resistance cap?

 

Arazan

Whoa whoa whoa... I've got to bring this back up. Fire mages are entirely dependent on super mana pots, gems on every cooldown, and evocation up until they get the level of gear where they're hit capped AND have crit rates in the 30%s AND be in a group with a shadowpriest. The situation is NOT just "ignore your mana bar until you have no mana", it's all cooldown blowing up until you get great gear. And that's not even considering burnout's affect on mana efficiency.

Rage and energy are far superior to mana right now, and while you think that rogues and kittens have some level of complexity with the energy bar, you need to see that all those classes do is make sure some specific ability is up (like SnD/Rupture) and other than that just spam an ability like sinister strike or hemo. There is no huge level of complexity to energy or rage, they're really where resource management ignorance exists in game.


What really disappointed me the most about the mage info is that it seems like mages always had problems with mana efficiency, and what they're getting, mixed with the mana cost increases on base spells, is just a huge punch in the nuts to mana efficiency.

 

Jarlyn