So, here's an interesting tidbit I just got in my email from a beta tester: Blizzard apparently can now crit.
Consider what this means in a hyjal-style AOE situation when you combine Ice Shards, Frostbite, Winter's Grasp, and Shatter. Every tick has a 23.5% chance to apply either frostbite or winter's grasp (or both); the following tick (or 5 ticks, in the case of a WG proc) has a good 80% chance to crit for double damage, and crits bypass the damage caps. That's a massive improvement to Frost-spec AOE damage.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Whilst its certainly a good bonus, in order to really get some appreciation from it you end up having to put a huge investment into frost tallents that you would otherwise put elsewhere. The only mages who are going to really feel that are already planning a 71-frost raid spec.
Uh... how so? I mean if blizzard can crit its not permafrost and imp blizz that will help it do so. The brilliant part of this change is that blizzard crits will synergize with all the stuff that frostbolt crits rely on, and if youre a frostmage you allready have those. Mobs that need to be AoEd also nearly always needs to be tanked so slowing effect or not doesnt matter.
Blizzard critting is very good for Frost (and even fire) AoE. Flamestrike->Blizz.
Another thing that came up in the Beta forums (WoW Forums -> Mana Gems) was that Mana Gems no longer disappear on logging out for 15 minutes, and seem to be unique-in-bag. That is, you can only hold one rank of gems in your bags at one time.
That means 6 minutes of mana gems before we have to reconjure assuming we get 3 of the next rank of the gems. I'm curious if the same applies to health stones.
To truly model the game, we first must research it. http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.
It liekly will apply to healthstones (both accross rank and tallent). re-conjuring gems isn't so bad an issue as it sounds. For extremely long fights its already better to re-conjure than use a lower rank.
What I mean with blizzard and talent investments is that if I were using blizzard in a raid enviroment I would feel obligated to spec for 85% slows to support the raid (and keep the locks alive longer. I admit thats my own feelings there and not some strict law that mages must follow. My greater concern is the danger that is inherant with freezing mobs in AoE (causing them to turn to who-ever is closest and punt them).
Its still a great buff to frost mages however. Whether or not it can compete with AE spam is to be seen.
Anyone know about the range on FFb yet? 46yard nukes with a 50% slow and the chance to proc impact AND frostbite with 70% pushback protection and 280% crits.... it just seems like over-balanacing for mage PvP.
I agree on healthstones, I think it wasnt intended for everyone in a raid carrying three of those. It also seems that blizzard wants people to pick classes for various support stuff rather than a single something. Hmm, maby Im phrasing that wrong. What I mean is I think they want to change stuff like BoS and HSx3 and instead have variety be a good thing but equally good across classes and specs. Simply to get away from the stacking classes to isntead get as many different kinds of support as possible. I do realise that contradics WG working on bosses and for other mages tho. Just a thought.
Anyway blizzard criting may or may not make it exeed AE spam in pure damage. But blizzard is a long range AoE spell. And even if one AoE spell is better than the other that doenst decide how good the entire talent tree is for raiding. Frost and arcane have different strengths and weakneses. If frostbolt turns out to be a better single target nuke than what arcane has to offer then specing arcane just for the AoE isnt likely to benifit the raid more. Anyway allowing blizzard to crit doesnt force anyone to spec imp blizzard. The only effect is that blizzard will deal more damage and become a better choise for AoE. Fire will be better than arcane at making it crit and that makes sense since they seem to want to define fire a bit more as an AoE tree, but most of all frost will be able to make the spell really interesting and that is what I would call brilliant design. All mages get a more effective AoE spell but those speced for the school blizzard belongs to will make it the most powerfull. As for specing imp blizzard just cause its buffed makes no sense at all to me. If AE deals the most damage and you really really need every point of damage you can get in a fight then AE is what you will cast, if safety is more important then blizzard offers that, and if controll is needed then its imp blizzard you want. But personally I dont think there´s a fight where you "need" imp blizzard for raiding. I have yet to see the shadow demons at illidan but Im betting a hunter trap for slowing and frostbolt nuking will be a better friend there. Long story short you dont support your raid by giving up damage in favour of controll unless that controll is really needed.
Though US invites being sent out, people posting exact numbers from the current beta are still kind of missing.
Nevertheless, a post from the US beta forums says that some polishing is on its way:
"We've been very busy trying to get everything working for other classes. We'll be doing a polish pass of the Mage very soon." - Koraa/Class Designer
There's light at the end of the tunnel from slight underwhelming first looks (especially the glimpses at the fire tree). And we finally have Class Designers Blizzard refrained from having for such a long time?
On a side note: I'd love the idea of more insight of what's going on in the dev's heads, perhaps we eventually get some at last.
Perhaps it is my cautious side, but I do not see much hope from that post, mostly because "polish" is indicative of a 'tuning' process rather than a series of additions/overhauls. "Polishing" the mage class means that on some level or another, the class designers are happy with what they have come up with for the mage class. While we can argue back and forth about whether or not the theorycraft makes mages better or worse, we cannot overlook the fact that we will still only be getting 2 new spells (Frostfire bolt, Shatter Shield), and even within these 2 spells, only 1 is truly useful to every mage type (that being shatter shield. I can't really see FfB being completely useful to the deep arcane mage who will just end up using one of his numerous other nukes instead, now true, I'm sure someone can come up with some obscene possibility where the arcane mage will have to use FfB instead of another nuke, but then, you miss my point)
Now I understand that most other classes are getting just 2 spells/abilities as well (though we could argue that the complete overhaul of the paladin combat system can easily be counted as more than just 2 spells), but at least those 2 spells are useful to pretty much all specs of that class.
I was very much hoping blizzard would give mages a new spell for each school at the very least (by new spell, I mean a new base spell, not talent). Being an arcane mage at heart, I was wishing for something new and interesting (beyond zOmG DPS) to keep me interested in my mage. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case, unless of course, blizzard's definition of "needs more polish" actually means "yea we actually haven't really started development on the WoTLk mage". But then, I think they would have said that pretty clearly, like they said it for paladins.
(edit) My comment about locks even with CoD losing to frost mages (not to mention elementalist) was mostly an aside to Manly. (p.s.: demonic sac + infernal *still* isn't a bug.)
Oh no worries, the recent infernal nerf got me very happy Although I was gueninely enjoying summoning them during anetheron on my alt on top of gonktarget, now its actively a bad thing to do quite unfortunately.
Also, sorry for the late replies, I just started today my 2 weeks vacation to vegas
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
So, here's an interesting tidbit I just got in my email from a beta tester: Blizzard apparently can now crit.
Consider what this means in a hyjal-style AOE situation when you combine Ice Shards, Frostbite, Winter's Grasp, and Shatter. Every tick has a 23.5% chance to apply either frostbite or winter's grasp (or both); the following tick (or 5 ticks, in the case of a WG proc) has a good 80% chance to crit for double damage, and crits bypass the damage caps. That's a massive improvement to Frost-spec AOE damage.
What's the interaction between critting Blizzard and aoe caps? If say 8 hits would make you hit the cap, can you pass the cap with crits or do the crits just lower the normal hits and continue at the cap?
You mean you plan to blizzard, stop blizzard to cast a new one thats 5% faster ? I get that it procs ashtongue a lot, but the fact that I don<t quite see chain blizzarding happen all that often seems contradictory to me.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Well, Manly, I'm assuming that a proc will carry through the duration of the spell. So, yeah, the first time it procs, you'd have to stop and cast again (because the proc won't apply for the current spell cast.) But after that, you'd be good to go.
for those interested, the combat log is reporting frostfire bolt as doing 'frost+fire' damage. Its still, however, up in the air regarding what tallents affect it.
What's the interaction between critting Blizzard and aoe caps? If say 8 hits would make you hit the cap, can you pass the cap with crits or do the crits just lower the normal hits and continue at the cap?
Crits exceed caps. If you're blizzarding thirty mobs and ticking for like 80 points each, then a crit will do 160 damage, breaking the cap limit. I think it can be conservatively estimated that a Frost Mage with 30% crit could expect somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50% increase in DPS with Blizzard due to this change, even in a situation where he's currently capped.
Essentially what this means is that deep Frost Mages will no longer suck at AOE DPS, which they currently do.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Well I mostly meant to say that I have some skepticism as to whether ashtongue would be interesting for frost aoe dps, given the obvious limitations of blizzard long cast time. It would depend on the type of AOE, of course.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
As I recall, an ashtongue proc would apply for the entirety of an arcane missile cast, even if the proc itself expires before the AM cast is complete, but it's been so long since I abused this mechanic that I forget. So I'm thinking the same applies to any channeled spell of long duration, including blizzard. You just need to front load the initial proc. Afterwards in a mass aoe situation there's going to be new procs popping up more or less constantly and subsequent Blizzard casts will be under their influence.
On a related note, if the worst WG scenarios come to pass with stacking mages and very high effective crit rates, the trinket perhaps becomes attractive for direct damage. But that's perhaps borrowing trouble.
As I recall, an ashtongue proc would apply for the entirety of an arcane missile cast, even if the proc itself expires before the AM cast is complete, but it's been so long since I abused this mechanic that I forget.
The problem isn't getting the benefit of a proc, the problem is that if the proc occurs on the first or second tick (or third, if you're carrying zero haste), then you either need to cancel your blizzard and start a new one (expensive), or you simply lose the proc before it's time for your next cast.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Yes, this is what I mean by frontloading. You're going to have to cancel your first cast anyhow, because any procs that happen during the first cast won't apply to it. (One of the reasons the trinket stinks for direct damage. Except maybe the crazy WG stacking scenario.) But it will apply to the next, and in mass aoe circumstances there's likely to be a proc in effect 24/7 from that point forward. So as long as the proc is applied for the duration of the cast despite expiring, each blizzard after the first one is going to be hasted accordingly without cancelling the cast.
I'm obviously looking at Mt. Hyjal style situation where crit opportunities will be abundant.
Wondering how blizzard will interact with MoE. It would be a huge mana saver, but will they have to code in a limit to how often it can proc while channeling or have it not be affected at all.
Oh arcane will be getting new base spells, it will be awesome spells that we use every day in WotLK and other players will love us for them. Portal: Dalaran, Conjure hot potato, and Conjure mage tears. (Yea I know its gonna be rain water, but it would be al ot funnier if the new water rank conjured mage tears.) Anyway I guess we can hope they have been working a bit on some new arcane base spell that hasnt been revealed yet cause it was to unfinished the first round of testing. But it kinda feels like it ought to have been datamined by now.
Anyway regarding the ashtounge trinket something I cant help wondering is if it will be of any use at all for a lv 80 mage. I mean its balanced to give a lv 70 mage a decent haste percentage while a lv 80 will gain a lot less. Not to mention that early on at lv 80 our crit will suck and when it starts getting good again the trinket will long be outdated.
Demonic Pact 5/5
Your pet's critcal apply the Demonic Pact effect to the target. Demonic Pact increases the spell power of all attackers against that target by 10% of your Spell Damage for 12 sec.
It's a caster version of surv hunter's debuff.
If this will remain in the retail I think that 1 affli lock + 1 demo lock will be a must in all 25man raid.
Affliction locks being viable is highly dependent on the number of debuff slots available and that number is decreasing with the introduction of DKs. One 0/50/21 lock is pretty much a given the way things are currently. Destro is back to 0/21/50 it seems but if they somehow make it worth it to actually use a pet as destro something along the lines of 7/3/61 might be popular with frailty (improves CoR) and improved bloodpact for the entire raid. Affliction provides 5% less physical damage done to tanks and 3% more dps for warlocks/boomkins/mages. It sort of seems like affliction would be the least attractive raiding spec given how many debuffs it takes up and how little it provides over a imp using destro lock.
Affliction locks being viable is highly dependent on the number of debuff slots available and that number is decreasing with the introduction of DKs. One 0/50/21 lock is pretty much a given the way things are currently. Destro is back to 0/21/50 it seems but if they somehow make it worth it to actually use a pet as destro something along the lines of 7/3/61 might be popular with frailty (improves CoR) and improved bloodpact for the entire raid. Affliction provides 5% less physical damage done to tanks and 3% more dps for warlocks/boomkins/mages. It sort of seems like affliction would be the least attractive raiding spec given how many debuffs it takes up and how little it provides over a imp using destro lock.
One may hope that amount of debuff slots will be again increased, if only because of introduction of new class, along with some new debuffs (6% arcane damage debuff from Your Friendly OOMkin, anyone?). 0/21/50 does not makes much sense for Destro with Demonic Sacrifice nerfed, and developers' intention to make locks use pets is clear. Affliction may or may not come out as least attractive spec but it probably be judged on scales of it's personal damage.
On point of Blizzard critting, it is interesting for consistency perspective if Rain of Fire will be critting as well. It is very elegant mechanic for bypassing AoE cap and fits nicely with frost tree general line-up.
Demonic Pact 5/5
Your pet's critcal apply the Demonic Pact effect to the target. Demonic Pact increases the spell power of all attackers against that target by 10% of your Spell Damage for 12 sec.
It's a caster version of surv hunter's debuff.
If this will remain in the retail I think that 1 affli lock + 1 demo lock will be a must in all 25man raid.
It is clearly the intention blizzard wants, but very unlikely.
Take into consideration lock pet's have base 5% crit chance. With talents it is 10%. That's it.
Hunter's pets have 5% chance too, but with talents they have 15% crit and 30% melee haste. When combined that gives good buff uptime.
I just doubt lock version will have any stable uptime to be of use to the rest of the party.
Originally Posted by Ellerain
One may hope that amount of debuff slots will be again increased, if only because of introduction of new class, along with some new debuffs (6% arcane damage debuff from Your Friendly OOMkin, anyone?). 0/21/50 does not makes much sense for Destro with Demonic Sacrifice nerfed, and developers' intention to make locks use pets is clear. Affliction may or may not come out as least attractive spec but it probably be judged on scales of it's personal damage.
On point of Blizzard critting, it is interesting for consistency perspective if Rain of Fire will be critting as well. It is very elegant mechanic for bypassing AoE cap and fits nicely with frost tree general line-up.
Well, if aoe's will crit.. here's hoping our dots start critting too . Unlikely, but it would fix most itemization issues affliction is having right now. Only haste would remain.
It is clearly the intention blizzard wants, but very unlikely.
Take into consideration lock pet's have base 5% crit chance. With talents it is 10%. That's it.
Hunter's pets have 5% chance too, but with talents they have 15% crit and 30% melee haste. When combined that gives good buff uptime.
I just doubt lock version will have any stable uptime to be of use to the rest of the party.
10% base crit + 3% from totem of wrath that is now raid wise + 3% from judgement (retradin or tankadin will take this talent and usually the jow is always up and also holy paladins could keep this buff up considerered the haste bonus in the tier 10 holy tree) + 5% from moonkin that is a must + other 1-2%(?) from int + king + other raid buff.
Add the new haste totem, the new retribution aura and the moonkin haste buff.
07/20/08, 6:27 PM
Although I was gueninely enjoying summoning them during anetheron on my alt on top of gonktarget, now its actively a bad thing to do quite unfortunately.
. Unlikely, but it would fix most itemization issues affliction is having right now. Only haste would remain.
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