WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 4

Flamingcloud · 05/22/08, 10:43 AM

There is no field for pet crit scaling or haste scaling in the alpha atm. If dots were critting the base values on the dots would most likely be lowered, though I suppose it could be done entirely in coefficient nerfs.

Haunt is an instant cast with a base value about 100dmg more than shadowburn, I would be surprised if it had a higher coefficient so I assume it is something you would use when you can do multiple targets, your moving, or you need a heal.

Madlax · 05/22/08, 12:39 PM

War Tools :: Talent tree WARLOCK WoTLK
Destro should be done, doing the rest in a little while.

#edit
Demo seems fine as well now.
Only thing that ain't right is that both Demonic Sacrifice and Master Demonologist require Unholy Power.
Just can't make that happen.

Anexus · 05/22/08, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Madlax

War Tools :: Talent tree WARLOCK WoTLK

#edit
Demo seems fine as well now.

Demonic Empowerment is listed as a 10sec cast, requiring 80% of base mana and a Soul Shard. That sounds wrong to me.

Madlax · 05/22/08, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Anexus

Demonic Empowerment is listed as a 10sec cast, requiring 80% of base mana and a Soul Shard. That sounds wrong to me.

Not like I'd bother adding times and values for talents on a beta-sheet.

ninielin · 05/22/08, 2:39 PM

Well there is a problem with the 15% stam talent now. because basically most warlock have it and if you take it then the talent which give 5% spi ( end of demo tier) just nullify it, a bit stupid. Should just remove the-5% spi and be done with it, was always quite stupid.

Flamingcloud · 05/22/08, 2:43 PM

Just because something is a bit stupid doesn't mean it won't happen. A +15% stamina -5% spirit talent in tier 1 is already very strong compared to the other stat talents in the game, I think it is unlikely they will remove the drawback just because spirit isn't completely worthless now.

Murdoch · 05/22/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Just because something is a bit stupid doesn't mean it won't happen. A +15% stamina -5% spirit talent in tier 1 is already very strong compared to the other stat talents in the game, I think it is unlikely they will remove the drawback just because spirit isn't completely worthless now.

Since they are apparently making spirit useful for warlocks, I wouldn't be surprised if they rework the talent completly. Maybe alter it so that the stam buff isn't so much (2,4,6,8,10%) or the downside is the lowering of a different stat-int perhaps.

Sardaukar · 05/22/08, 3:20 PM

Gotta say, not all that impressed. The 51 point affliction talent is terrible (do we need more aoe?) and I was really hoping for something that encourages affliction locks to use purely affliction spells (and not just makes an affliction/destro hybrid more appealing). Demonology is just horribly thought out (all those talents so we can become uber demons for 51 points?). Fire destro looks a bit too good tbh. My gut reaction is that we are gonna see the same thing we saw in TBC with affliction being nice for leveling up and initial instances and then giving way to mage wannabe pure nukers albeit with incinerate instead of shadow bolt.

dexia · 05/22/08, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Murdoch

Since they are apparently making spirit useful for warlocks, I wouldn't be surprised if they rework the talent completly. Maybe alter it so that the stam buff isn't so much (2,4,6,8,10%) or the downside is the lowering of a different stat-int perhaps.

If they change life tap to 20% health loss (I still think they are diabolically thinking of implementing it), such a nerf would really hurt.

dexia · 05/22/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sardaukar

Gotta say, not all that impressed. The 51 point affliction talent is terrible (do we need more aoe?) and I was really hoping for something that encourages affliction locks to use purely affliction spells (and not just makes an affliction/destro hybrid more appealing). Demonology is just horribly thought out (all those talents so we can become uber demons for 51 points?). Fire destro looks a bit too good tbh. My gut reaction is that we are gonna see the same thing we saw in TBC with affliction being nice for leveling up and initial instances and then giving way to mage wannabe pure nukers albeit with incinerate instead of shadow bolt.

I'm not all that impressed with the destro talents myself. Eternal Flames is nice, but it is no where near as powerful as Shadow and Flame was.

Sardaukar · 05/22/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by dexia

I'm not all that impressed with the destro talents myself. Eternal Flames is nice, but it is no where near as powerful as Shadow and Flame was.

Ya, I still worry about not enough affliction talents providing the dps needed for it to be viable as end game raiding.

Wait, does that mean shadow and flame is gone?

Flamingcloud · 05/22/08, 3:40 PM

No it isn't gone. Eternal Flames is just not remotely close to shadow and flame, if it was destro might have been the dominant spec from start to finish.

Lifetap isn't gonna be changed, there were 3 lock nerfs they have tried to push through that they failed on, ruin, lifetap and improved shadowbolt. They can probably stealth in the improved sb nerf without causing too much of an uproar especially since fire is just as good now, but I doubt they could get either of the other nerfs through even in an expansion.

Clearly blizzard decided long ago that they don't want warlocks in 51/0/0 or 61/0/0 type specs and the same carries over at 80. None of the trees have more than 55 good pve points.

rouger · 05/22/08, 3:49 PM

Demon Armor - Changed to Armor, and +20% healing received
Fel Armor - Changed to +Dmg and 30% of mana regen during combat

ok i am fine with that not that bad.

Demonic Empowerment
way to much mana

Decimate (51 point) - Your next Shadow or Fire spell is instant cast, and does damage in the form of Chaos damage, ignoring all resistances, absorption, and immunity mechanics. After the end of the Decimated cast, you become exhausted, disabling you from casting a spell of the same school for 3 sec. This ability has a 3 minute cooldown.

lol pvp destruction look like that never going to happen

pve lol must be fire destruction or demo shadow 0/50/21 (if you have the hit cap)

over all it could be much worse

dexia · 05/22/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sardaukar

Ya, I still worry about not enough affliction talents providing the dps needed for it to be viable as end game raiding.

Wait, does that mean shadow and flame is gone?

No..I'm comparing the 5pt 35-40 destro talent to the new 45-50 destro talent. I'll like to see what the dps boost of EF is vs SnF is, I haven't done the math. SnF is much more dps I think than Eternal Flames. Honestly the trees make more sense if SnF is where Eternal Flames are. If the talents get weaker and weaker the deeper you go in a tree, then that encourages hybridizing between trees.

10% crit and a rolling immolate tick (the tick from immolate was never very large) isn't very impressive, but I would like to see the math.

dexia · 05/22/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

No it isn't gone. Eternal Flames is just not remotely close to shadow and flame, if it was destro might have been the dominant spec from start to finish.

Lifetap isn't gonna be changed, there were 3 lock nerfs they have tried to push through that they failed on, ruin, lifetap and improved shadowbolt. They can probably stealth in the improved sb nerf without causing too much of an uproar especially since fire is just as good now, but I doubt they could get either of the other nerfs through even in an expansion.

Clearly blizzard decided long ago that they don't want warlocks in 51/0/0 or 61/0/0 type specs and the same carries over at 80. None of the trees have more than 55 good pve points.

When did they try to nerf ruin?

◊ manly · 05/22/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Lifetap isn't gonna be changed, there were 3 lock nerfs they have tried to push through that they failed on, ruin, lifetap and improved shadowbolt. They can probably stealth in the improved sb nerf without causing too much of an uproar especially since fire is just as good now, but I doubt they could get either of the other nerfs through even in an expansion.

Well, if they tried to change it 3 times, that means they identified a problem with the spell, and wanted to fix it. Wouldn't you agree that the best possible time to do drastic change is at expansion? Blizzard said many times that their goals is to adapt classes over time - ie: if they see a class performing poorly, then the plan is to fix it eventually. (corrolary: the same applies to the reverse). It doesn't have to be right now. They have said this for pallies (ret/prot) amongst other things, and they did change a lot of things to make them more viable, but they didn't do it as soon as it was being reported, they waited a good while then finally pushed in the changes.

I admit here were talking buffing in contrast to nerfing. Buffing classes is much less of a problem than it is to nerf. If anything, major nerfs should be reserved for expansions, or making sure abilities fail to scale (or boost the other stuff), progressively letting them die on their own.

So yeah, I believe that you are wrong that 'trying to push through lifetap changes 3 times and reverting it every time' is indicative that no changes will be made. Quite the contrary.

dexia · 05/22/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by rouger

ok i am fine with that not that bad.

Decimate

lol pvp destruction look like that never going to happen

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. Not sure what demonic circle will do for locks. If you are destruction, I still see you being FF'd.

Originally Posted by manly

Well, if they tried to change it 3 times, that means they identified a problem with the spell, and wanted to fix it. Wouldn't you agree that the best possible time to do drastic change is at expansion? Blizzard said many times that their goals is to adapt classes over time - ie: if they see a class performing poorly, then the plan is to fix it eventually. (corrolary: the same applies to the reverse). It doesn't have to be right now. They have said this for pallies (ret/prot) amongst other things, and they did change a lot of things to make them more viable, but they didn't do it as soon as it was being reported, they waited a good while then finally pushed in the changes.

I admit here were talking buffing in contrast to nerfing. Buffing classes is much less of a problem than it is to nerf. If anything, major nerfs should be reserved for expansions, or making sure abilities fail to scale (or boost the other stuff), progressively letting them die on their own.

So yeah, I believe that you are wrong that 'trying to push through lifetap changes 3 times and reverting it every time' is indicative that no changes will be made. Quite the contrary.

The reason they wanted to change life tap recently was because of the strength of locks in arena pvp per Kalgan..not PvE. The downward trend of locks in arena representation got it reverted, not the mass QQ. Considering locks are going to be using Demon Armor instead of Fel Armor in arena, that means they lose 180 potential spell damage. Soul link is only 15% now. Master Demonology had it's dps reduced for succy and imp. There are already a lot of lock pvp/pve nerfs in alpha.

Flamingcloud · 05/22/08, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Well, if they tried to change it 3 times, that means they identified a problem with the spell, and wanted to fix it. Wouldn't you agree that the best possible time to do drastic change is at expansion? Blizzard said many times that their goals is to adapt classes over time - ie: if they see a class performing poorly, then the plan is to fix it eventually. (corrolary: the same applies to the reverse). It doesn't have to be right now. They have said this for pallies (ret/prot) amongst other things, and they did change a lot of things to make them more viable, but they didn't do it as soon as it was being reported, they waited a good while then finally pushed in the changes.

I admit here were talking buffing in contrast to nerfing. Buffing classes is much less of a problem than it is to nerf. If anything, major nerfs should be reserved for expansions, or making sure abilities fail to scale (or boost the other stuff), progressively letting them die on their own.

So yeah, I believe that you are wrong that 'trying to push through lifetap changes 3 times and reverting it every time' is indicative that no changes will be made. Quite the contrary.

Oh, I am not advocating that they won't TRY to change lifetap. Just that they will fail.

◊ manly · 05/22/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by dexia

The reason they wanted to change life tap recently was because of the strength of locks in arena pvp per Kalgan..not PvE. The downward trend of locks in arena representation got it reverted, not the mass QQ. Considering locks are going to be using Demon Armor instead of Fel Armor in arena, that means they lose 180 potential spell damage. Soul link is only 15% now. Master Demonology had it's dps reduced for succy and imp. There are already a lot of lock pvp/pve nerfs in alpha.

And you do bring me to the next point, which is quite a sad state of thing. All the new class talents seem oriented for PVP. I think this is because they can't fix pvp easily, whereas they can fix bosses to match the new talents, pretty much whatever they are. This means that if not a single talent was made with pve in mind, pve could be adjusted to work just as well, whereas adjusting it the other way seems like an impossible task.

Of course, the implications from that are a bit sad for hardcore pve-ers.

dexia · 05/22/08, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by manly

And you do bring me to the next point, which is quite a sad state of thing. All the new class talents seem oriented for PVP. I think this is because they can't fix pvp easily, whereas they can fix bosses to match the new talents, pretty much whatever they are. This means that if not a single talent was made with pve in mind, pve could be adjusted to work just as well, whereas adjusting it the other way seems like an impossible task.

Of course, the implications from that are a bit sad for hardcore pve-ers.

I agree. They gave fire and destro a lot more crit to hopefully compensate for resilience stacking in hopes to make the tree more pvp viable--but damage multipliers are not there, nerfed (ISB) or there is a tax (burnout). What a sad state of affairs if a lock or mage is dropped for a 4th boomkin druid or elemental shaman in a raid.

awakened · 05/22/08, 4:51 PM

I just wish they'd stop designing/redesigning talents with PVP issues as the driving force. They should just create a PVP set of talents for each class and have it only active whilst in BGs/Arena. I don't know of anyone who would complain about not having to respec for PVP. And certainly you could keep a tighter reign on the various PVP talents without effectively screwing up the PVE talents so much.

Deathwing · 05/22/08, 4:53 PM

What crit? Here's the list of meaningful buffs destro got:

5% hit(that's really the biggest one)
No immolate refreshing
+10% crit damage

Jury still out on kindling soul. If you make it a 5/5 talent at the 45 point place, I think that would be a worthy talent.

They are nerfing destro through meaningless buffs. Couple that with the nerf to ISB, I'm really hoping they do something significant for pet survivability. Otherwise, I'm just scratching my head trying to pick the talent tree that doesn't suck as much.

Flamingcloud · 05/22/08, 5:12 PM

Pretty sure he was referring to crit on immolate/conflag in the pvp perspective.

5% hit really isn't a buff to destro though since it is in tier 1 and would be acquired on a need basis by all specs. I think kindling soul would probably be the equivalent to a +50dmg 25mp5 at level 70 type buff if gear was balanced around spirit like it surely will be going forward. That makes it a respectable talent. That and no immolate freshing and +10% crit damage (which is pretty good if it works like CSD (which makes your crits 2.09)) Still overall not that much considering their was things like backlash and shadow and flame last time.

dexia · 05/22/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

What crit? Here's the list of meaningful buffs destro got:

5% hit(that's really the biggest one)
No immolate refreshing
+10% crit damage

Jury still out on kindling soul. If you make it a 5/5 talent at the 45 point place, I think that would be a worthy talent.

They are nerfing destro through meaningless buffs. Couple that with the nerf to ISB, I'm really hoping they do something significant for pet survivability. Otherwise, I'm just scratching my head trying to pick the talent tree that doesn't suck as much.

I'm including fire mages...they have talents that will increase crit% and crit bonus too.

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Pretty sure he was referring to crit on immolate/conflag in the pvp perspective.

5% hit really isn't a buff to destro though since it is in tier 1 and would be acquired on a need basis by all specs. I think kindling soul would probably be the equivalent to a +50dmg 25mp5 at level 70 type buff if gear was balanced around spirit like it surely will be going forward. That makes it a respectable talent. That and no immolate freshing and +10% crit damage (which is pretty good if it works like CSD (which makes your crits 2.09)) Still overall not that much considering their was things like backlash and shadow and flame last time.

I think I saw a Lhivera post where if the crit bonus of EF was calculated like some of the mage talents...the 10% would apply to the 100% from ruin....an EF crit would be 205% damage, not 210%. You aren't increasing a crit by 10%...just the bonus part, for an overall 5% more damage. The talent is weaker than you think.

If we are fire, we need fire mages to be competitive...but what is arcane is the way to go for them? What if we have to stay shadow since there is 2 locks in the raid and they want CoS/CoR? We get no shadow bolt modifier after SnF, and ISB is nerfed. What do we do with the extra 10 pts? Instant corruption, imp LT, soul siphon?

If Blizzard wants mages and locks to have choice in raiding spec...for the love of GOD it's time to combine CoE and CoS..especially since you are adding another class. Mages and Locks can get on the same page...shadow priests/boomkins can't---which means CoS >>> CoE, which forces mages to arcane and locks to shadow spam.

Personally, I'll like to see 0/21/50 removed by moving demon sac out of reach, and the deeper destro talents with better damage modifiers. Then destro can pick up imp. corruption, and allowing Molten Core to actually be useful (assuming the damage over time means only shadow damage). Right now you can't pick up imp. corruption in a fire build. After playing/exploring the talents trees...I'm like somebody else, I'm wondering how 29/21/21 would play out. Or deep demonology.