Captain Keeez

I agree with you about Blood Aura, it dosn't return to much health. It seems like it would more situational, for use on heavy aoe fights like Naj'entus. It may be worth dropping the points in it and picking up 2/3 improved Plague Strike, 1/3 Imp Plague Strike and 3/3 Dirge, or Dancing Rune Weapon and 1 point in either of the 2.

 

rooj

How would Crypt Fever work on raid bosses? Or would it? If it does decrease a raid boss's attributes, I would imagine that the only visible change could be its total health.

 

Pyralissa

Paladins already have a similar talent that every boss is already immune to, I think it's safe to say that the stat reducing portion of Crypt Fever will not lower stats except on trash and enemy players. The bigger bonus will be the added spell power, which in all likelihood will apply to bosses.

 

Raedix

I've been thinking of the same things... people mainly seem to be concerned with DPS/Leveling builds for DKs right now, but I'm focusing purely on the tanking side of things. I had a Prot. Warrior at 60, a Prot. Pally at 70, and I'm planning on a Death Knight Tank for 80. So, I'm not in beta, but I've been following a lot of these things, and can answer some things.

About your parry concern, you have things a bit mixed up. When you parry, it makes your next attack come faster. Likewise, when a boss parries, it makes his/her/its next attack come faster. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with a tank having a high parry rating, unless of course he doesn't have a high enough Expertise rating, and the faster tank attacks create more boss parries... By the time parry haste becomes a (big) concern, a tank should have that taken care of.

I also think the anti-magic zone may not be as great as you think, from a PvE standpoint. I'm sure there will be a few fights where it is useful, but at level 80 it seems 10,000 spell damage may not be enough to justify it in a tanking build. Lichborne, on the other hand... is. A 5 minute cooldown emergency button is absolutely amazing! Remember, while a warrior's Shield Wall decreases 75% of incoming damage, Lichborne may do nearly as much or more. If, as it seems, a Death Knight will be raiding with 50-60% avoidance, an extra 25% to miss ends up being a 50%-62.5% physical damage reduction! Combine that with Icebound Fortitude, and you have a Shield Wall every 5 minutes.

So, I would probably go at least 11 points into Unholy, for that. In general though, the very deep parts of the trees have little for tanks, and there are a lot of great synergies to be had... stacking strength increases Parry Rating with an investment into the Blood tree, and there are a load of great skills that raise both Strength and Stamina. At the current time, for a pure tank spec, it seems that one is going to have to eschew conventional wisdom, and grab a little bit from each of the three trees.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator

The real question here is whether one should cut down on either the blood or the frost trees in order to pick up Bone Armor... but to be honest, that skill looks more like a defensive PvP skill than something one could count on while raid tanking (and would get eaten up way too quickly in AoE or Heroic tanking). It seems that the real skillset of the DK raid tank is going to be control. While they may end up taking slightly more damage than a Warrior or Paladin much of the time, the DK is able to control much more effectively when they'll be taking damage, and when they'll be taking much less of it. It is going to require a much more active tanking role than simply using a rotation (although changes to Shield Block and crushing mechanics, may add some of this to Warriors and possibly Paladins/Druids as well), but should help to smooth out rough parts. But I foresee Icebound Fortitude being an extremely powerful tool that will help Death Knights tank a lot of different content.

 

rooj

Ah, yes, I apologize for getting parry mixed up.

I wonder though whether you are underestimating anti-magic zone.


1) It can absorb more than 10K dmg, it is just destroyed afterwards. I don't read it as a PWS in which it only absorbs 10K and the rest get through, more like if it absorbs more than 10K, then the zone is destroyed.

2) But the party limitation is where it may fail. I still think it has a good deal of application in reducint the dmg a tank group would take, but it certainly affects the utility of the spell. A 2 minute cooldown though is pretty small.

I wonder if Frigid Dreadplate stacks with TC and other effects.

 

Captain Keeez

Here's my new Blood DPS spec: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator

Still using the rotation Degeneration -> Plague Strike -> Blood Strike -> Icy Touch -> Death Coil, along with the procs. Decided to take full Dirge and Vicious Strikes over Improved Plague Strike, but would still like to see some tests on the beta relating to DRW vs Death Coil.

 

Darkrenown

It can be used to heal a friendly undead though.

Can you DC yourself while Lichborne?

 

nuoHep

Woldn't a rotation like Degen -> Plague Strike -> Icy Touch -> Obliterate -> Death Coil be better than this? With extra blood runes from rune mastery dumped into Blood Strikes.
Obliterate does more damage then Blood Strike; gives 100% Abomination Strength uptime; generates more RP for Death Coils. The only downside is that it eats our diseases. But it does not really matter imho, as you are going to refresh them on your next cycle anyways.

The build may stay the same tbh. As I don't see any other dps talents to put points into instead of Sudden Doom and imp Blood Strike.

 

Pyros

I have something similar, for leveling though(so not fully capped). There's a few stuff I don't take or take different. For example Epidemic, I love it, lets you get more out of the diseases on longer fights without having to reapply them. I also never take bladed armor, it seems overwhelmingly low, at 66 I have 5k armor, that's 125AP for 5points, not very good imo. Also since it doesn't raise str, it doesn't raise parry indirectly, just pure AP.

I found I wasn't using the weapon enough when leveling, I either forget or don't find a good moment to use it efficiently, so I just dropped it and blood gorged temporarly to boost autoattack and stuff with necrosis. Working fine currently.

Btw for rotations using degen and plaguestrike, use plague first, it means you'll have the 2runes back up faster(specifically the blood rune). And you always use Icy touch before the rest since it's ranged, so you use it while running to the mob to free a GCD. Then it just stays there in the rotation. Just for the sake of perfecting rotations but well ^^.


And I'm sure you'll see more tanking related discussion when people start tanking. I'll soon be high enough for northrend myself(67 now, if I could have played on sunday I'd be 70+, damn server issues ^^) so I'll start doing dungeons and probably spec for something more tanking friendly. Bone Armor however is definitely a good skill. It only expands charges on direct hits, and when you have degen up if you have epidemic, you'll have one unholy rune(out of plaguestrike) that you won't have much to do with. Bone Armor every 30secs, with D&D also makes it better than just refreshing degen. It also goes in the spelltanking stuff, it's -40% on the next 4spells. Most of the DK abilities are procs or short duration stuff that you'll have to weave so they chain off each other nicely.

 

Raedix

Good point about the absorption, although again, it seems a bit too situational. Moreover, it seems to not fit in the best tank builds... you just have to give up way too much in order to get it. It seems that Warrior and Death Knight gear are going to be very similar, so we have to be worried that the DK's effective health is going to be significantly lower than a Warrior's. That 3% Stamina talent in Blood, and the 6% health Frost Aura are going to go a long way to closing that gap a little bit.

Although, Mark of Blood looks very, very good as well as a replacement for the "block" mechanic. To compare the talent to a T4/5 tank at 70, buffed the tank has about 19-20k health, and a 2% heal would be about 400 damage, similar to the block value at that same level. Very interesting, if I do say so myself... The more I look at some of these talents, the more I can "see" some of Blizzard's thinking, although it is a bit frustrating (although obviously intended by Blizzard) that each tree has its own set of unique tanking skills.

 

Captain Keeez

Hmmm I like that one Nuohep. The plague strike vs degeneration order dosn't matter, as you cant use the rune for something else, when it's up your using it for plague strike. Epidemic dosn't help either if you go with nuoHeps rotation, but if you use the other one you could use 2 degenerates then get an extra blood strike, However I think the obliterate one will do more dps.

 

Pyros

The issue with obliterate is it eats crypt fever. Unless you don't have an unholy DK in your raid for the 3%spell dmg debuff(and maybe the stat one but doubt that part works on bosses), you won't be using Obliterate for anything. Obliterate is nice, but without the Frost talent that makes it not eat diseases 90% of the time, I don't see it being used in raids unless you're the only DK in the raid. I guess if you're the melee group DK in the raid though, Obliterate is good(since you proc the 10%str all the time). But that's just a part of the cases, in the rest, you won't be using obliterate. If you're in a melee heavy group, it'll be itneresting to see if 100%uptime on Abom's Strength is better than 100%uptime on ebon plague(from crypt fever). Depending on the number of casters in your group, it might actually be better for the blood DK to even obliterate the diseases from the unholy DK.

As for plague vs degen, was trying to think of an example where it might be useful to get a blood rune back first, but it's not really that important while raiding I guess. While leveling though, it's better to have more runes first so you have more options for your next moves in case of adds or whatever. A blood rune is the same as a death rune in those cases, so it can make a lot of difference. Example, get a crappy add, plaguestrike runes refresh, you bloodtap the blood to death then use Death and Decay, or Ghoul summoning(for Death Pact healing or explosion). This is very hypothetic, but since there's no point in doing degen first...

And with epidemic, you can definitely skip plague every cycle(if you're not using obliterate obviously), you lose 2secs of uptime on the dot, but not a major issue, but you have to find what to use it on. What I see is this as a long rotation:

Chill > Plague Strike > Degen > Bloodstrike > Death Coil > Chill ... wait for refresh, then
Chill > Blood Strike > Death and Decay(uses the rune from plague and the degen one) > Bloodstrike > Death Coil > Chill > Deathcoil
Then first rotation twice, then D&D one, etc. Maybe add ghoul instead of D&D when you can. And I guess during the D&D cycle, you actually replace all the deathcoils by rune weapon when it's up, at the end, for full RP duration.

That's the only way I see to fit everything in, without relying on obliterate. If you're the only DK in the raid, I guess obliterate rotation is in order, and yes it's much simplier and saves you the points in epidemic. Will probably be guild dependant ^^.

 

Darkrenown

So obliterate will eat other DKs diseases? Do your obliterates/blood strikes also gain damage from other's diseases too? I would have thought they;d make both the eatting and bonus damage only affect your own diseases.

 

Captain Keeez

My bad, forgot about Obliterate eating other DKs diseases. Hopefully this will be changed to only your own before release.

 

heel

Only-DK-in-the-raid spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Thoughts? Trying to get a feel for the class.

 

Pyros

Currently it eats other's diseases, I'm unsure about bloodstrike, haven't got around to test it without someone obliterating the stack or mobs dieing too fast. I assume it works too, however it will probably be capped at some point.

At this point, they might change obliterate so it only counts your diseases, or they just might rework the ability completely. DK is still in a very early stage, they haven't started balancing around no rune change and stuff like that, so I'm waiting for next patch to see which way they're going. I'd figure they'll fix frost issues by making frost strike runic power based or something, and making the rune masteries better across the board, and having one of the unholy special ability on a rune instead of RP.

I still have plenty of stuff to test too once I hit cap. Like acclimatation, my preliminary tests seem to show it procs of any source of damage(but not the melee elemental attacks). That is, of any ticks. I got it to proc twice of Mind Sear and Arcane Missiles per cast. At 50resist for the group for 20secs per stack, 3stacks max, it'd be a killer for PvP. Would force warlocks to not dot the DK, and pretty much avoid trying to kill the DK at all. Between the 150from acclimatation and the 80 from frost presence(if you're being focused might as well pop it), you'd see an interesting amount of mitigation on caster damage especially from locks. Also means it'd proc off Roots damage ticks, meaning you'd raise nature resist easily for those pesky cyclones. Binary resist check, but with 230 you're more likely to get a full resist ^^. That'd be the anti CC I was looking for in the DK PvP, high resist rates. Might be that those spells count as initial casts for each ticks though, I have to find a SW:P mob somewhere close to where I can go, if someone has ideas, not far from LHC or from Shattrath.

 

Captain Keeez

heel I would pick up Anti-Magic Zone if you want to go full support like that. I dont think it will be pulling to much dps, but the raid utility could make it worth it (Ebon Plaguebringer, Anti-magic zone, frozen rune weapon). Well, FRW will probaly only help your own dps as I doubt many mages will be raiding frost, and not by much at the current damage of icy touch.

 

Pyros

Vicious Strikes isn't very good because unholy attacks are low base damage to start with, I'd rather go for death coil boost since you use that pretty often in comparison.

Master of Ghoul is pretty meh and you don't need full pointsin Ferocious Dead to get perma ghoul. You can get 2 ghouls out at the moment, but it seems to be a bug since it only works if you use a reagent to summon first one(or a corpse, but doesn't work with the other).

Unholy Rune mastery is terrible in its current state. Even when it procs, there's nothing good to use the runes on but another degen which only does 60%weap dmg. If you want Blood Baked Blade up, you probably want to be dual wielding, and you want it up for cryptfever/ebon plague. Means it'd be a good idea to get the frost DW talent.

You don't need the 51pointer, it's only good when AEing, and even then it's meh at best. Same for frozen weapon if you want full stack, you want to DW, so again you need the DW talents in frost.

Remove the 51point, Glacier Rot, and 1point from improved bloodstrike I guess. Or could go with only 2points in DW.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Something like this, that's how I'd go at least. Could also drop some not too useful stuff to go antimagic zone to pop it on the tank or whatever.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

heel

Insightful, thanks.

 

Lamaros

Can we pelase try and stop this thread degenerating into a "rate my talent spec" one. It's not especially useful to readers normally, and given the specs are mostly from people not in the beta, and that the beta will change before release it's even less useful.

Thanks.

Edit to elaborate (again):

The title of this thread is 'DK WotLK Discussion - Talents and Abilities'. As a general rule then posts should involve a discussion of some DK talent or ability. That means it should ask questions about said abilities if the mechanics are not known, or perhaps speculate on the strength or weakness of abilities, with justification for those views. The simple stating of opinions without reasoning is not useful, nor is it useful to ask purely personal questions that have no wider interest for other readers.

To come to this thread and read two pages of posts where there is no new information and no interesting new speculation is not the purpose of this thread. The Official Blizzard forums are open for WotLK discussion now so people can post "here's my DK talent tree, what do you think?" there if they feel the need.

Please try to include content in to any post you make in this thread.

Edit2:

And please read a bit about the DKs before you post questions. At this point it is horribly redundant to see people asking "will DKs use +spellpower" again; it's been asked a number fo times already and some quick reading or searching will solve those peoblems.

I will update the first post when I get some time with some of the more frequently asked questions so we hopefully stop this happening as much.

 

grayrest

There has been a considerable amount of speculative theorycrafting on the mage thread to the point of generating numbers and coefficients with assumed values. Winter's Grip is looking like the definitive raiding talent so the two leading candidates have been deep frost and Frostfire elemental, pending Frostfire talent interaction and coefficients. Unless the speculative theorycrafting missed something or Arc/Fire are buffed, the vast majority of raiding mages will make use of FRW debuff.

 

Lamaros

Update on the new runforging by Ghostcrawler. As I speculated, DK runes wont stack with normal enchants for technical reasons, but it isn't a big deal because they aim for them to always be best in class:

And some stuff about fixing frost:

 

spiritamael

Obliterate has 40% more weapon damage and bigger additional damage than the Blood Strike, but dont forget that with Sudden Doom talent every Blood Strike does an additional 20% of your Death Coil damage. So the main question is - is 20% Death Coil dps lower than Obliterate minus Blood Strike dps.

btw the main question that tears my mind apart is what "finishing move" does more dps: Death Coil or Dancing Rune Weapon... >_<