Casupaa

Ghostcrawler on the "fast/slow dagger issue":
"Changing Mutilate (or dagger itemization) to beef up slow daggers a little would be nice. The way we'd do that though would probably be to mess with poison procs, which risks being a nerf to rogue dps overall, so that's not something we're comfortable doing at this stage. We think you're still cool using a high dps slow OH dagger, so you shouldn't always be in the situation of sharding any slow daggers. Long-term it's something we'd like to revisit though."

Well, this rather bad Poisons/FA/Mutilate synergy has been bugging me for a long time. Would a speed dependent FA be out of hand?

1.8+ = 3 energy
1.6 - 1.7 = 2 energy
1.5 and below = 1 energy

 

poidz

as i was doing this spreadsheet query yesterday i thought i might share some of the findings i saw at least for my gear level. DP is on offhand unless otherwise stated

simply plugging in my gear/spec, crux against double fang setup wields (where crux is gemmed with a delicate crimson spinel):


fang/crux (DP): 2882.45
crux (DP)/fang: 2879.92
fang/fang: 2876.21
crux/crux: 2866.05
crux/fang (DP): 2859.18
fang/trackers: 2841.86
fang/messenger: 2835.68
fang/SBoU: 2827.95
fang (DP)/EoO: 2825.71
EoO/fang (DP): 2821.74

with a typical 51/5/5 build, may be different for your gear levels, just posted for comparisons sake

edit: added crux/crux

 

• chalon

That would make slow daggers more desirable, sure, but it would also nerf our DPS at this point.

Bottom line is yes, it's true it's a bit unoptimal. But at the same time our current "best" weapon combination appears to be MH Webbed Death (1.4s) and OH Sinister Revenge (1.8s). He is correct in that a slow OH w/ DP isn't really a huge DPS loss compared to a fast one, though obviously if there were a fast 171 DPS weapon that would be a bit better than Sinister Revenge.

EDIT: Checked the arena weapons, and the Deadly Gladiator Shiv has the same speed/DPS as Webbed Death, so therefore Sinister Revenge is the best OH.

 

Kukulkan

Probably i made a mistake, but playing with rings, seems with the ArP decline, as angelita/Runed/Stormrage have ArP, and with agil/AP gaining more, seems Hyjal exhalted rep ring to be closer if not a little better than those 3, with HKB being first. Again not sure, maybe someone else can run that ring to see what it ends up.

 

Feist-Mok

2 notes and a question

Playing around w/ spreadsheets show AToL surpassing DST for me with a combat build atm, by a pretty substantial (20-30 dps, depending on spec/cycle) margin.

Similarly, I've found at least in my case (Early sunwell gear), I'm well past the Agi > hit point of inflection.

Finally, since I've been having trouble managing to hammer out a definitive answer for myself and I've seen enough conflicting information that I want to try to get a handle on this.

For mutilate, Fast MH, and highest DPS OH is the way to go w/ Instant Poison MH.

For combat, Slow MH, Fast OH, with Instant poison MH and deadly off. Correct?

 

• chalon

There really isn't a hard and fast rule for Mutilate necessarily. OH DPS/stats can offset speed, but only to an extent. It's really hard to say definitively, it depends on what weapons you have available and what your gear is.

As for combat, you're generally correct, though it's actually much closer on whether the MH should be IP or the OH, and depends a bit on what the speed difference is.

EDIT: Oh, and for combat it depends on whether or not you're Swords, Fist, or Fist/Dagger

 

Arindelest

The issue is that although you're correct in saying Agi and AP got a relative boost (which are what the Exalted Hyjal ring has in abundance), especially compared to ArP, which is now worth relatively less, BotEC was already so far behind that this alone isn't making up the difference.

 

ant1pathy

For weapons with the same stats (PvP daggers for instance) what's the best combo to have? If I have access to either two s2 1.8 speeds, or one MH and one OH s2 dagger, what's my best combo?

Can you give any numbers for the inflection here? I picked up a s2 MH Fist weapon to go with my EoO for combat in case I don't like Mutilate, and don't want to get my poisons in the wrong hands.

 

ferommor

I've seen all the new spec that you guys did for the new upcoming patch. What are you planning about the hit rating cause without precision we gonna have to get a real high hit cap or they gonna reduce it, anyone have a answer to that, my rogue have 344 hit rating unfood buff.


Thanks in advance from a fellow rogue

Ferommor Kirin Tor Horde side ftw :P

 

Bowien

Wisdom from Aldriana:
Also keep in mind that once we start leveling to 80 in the expansion I think most people will be picking up precision after maxing opportunity/RS. You won't have it until then, but as Al said you don't really need it to do competent DPS.

 

• Aldriana

1) I've always felt that Vulajin's sheet overestimates the value of AToL somewhat. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons, and I can't say it hasn't been fixed at some point along the line; but while AToL is getting a bit stronger, relatively speaking, I confess I'm skeptical about it beating DST that badly.

2) As a general rule on Mutilate, you want fast weapons; if you only have one, you probably want it in your MH. But you should really really really check the sheet to be sure, particularly when comparing weapons of significantly different DPS.

 

◊ Vulajin

Regarding AToL, it is definitely superior to DST by a fairly significant margin for a Mutilate build, and has always been. For a Combat build, I would only assume that AToL could surpass DST if you stacked a lot of haste rating, and even then certainly not by 20-30 DPS.

 

Warr

I'm still seeing real basic questions getting asked at least once per page. The answer to the dagger question is "it depends." There is no hard and fast rule as to what makes a dagger better like there has been for the last 4 years. Weapon speed, raw DPS, and stat distribution all make a difference to varying degrees.

For pretty much any other question, the answer is "use the spreadsheet." There answers for the vast majority of your questions have been out there for a couple weeks now and you can find them yourself if you take the time to experiment.

Reposting how to add extra daggers one last time:

Optimal stat weighings also vary from spec to spec and different sets of gear. One way to get a good general idea of what you should gem for is add a certain amount of stat or rating to any row, see how much it gains you, and undo changes. Not too scientific but it matches the results that the authors have come to. Don't use a low number; the spreadsheet can't account for low numbers since they are often lost in a floor function (I used 10 of a stat/rating or 20 AP for my tests).

I can't speak for the mods, but they must have a lot more patience than me when they see of these questions for the umpteenth time.

 

Rei86

I'm very confused about using fast MH/OH Dagger for mutilate

I don't understand how fast/fast daggers will help you out in PVE situation since my understanding for sometime now is that two slow daggers was the best option for mutilate.

I'm guessing come WoTLK its a better option to go with a fast MH/OH for PVE? And also I know this thread isnt for PVP but what about that?

 

Kukulcan

The choice between a fast\slow dagger for offhand is not a rule.. the best thing is testing different choices with the available spreadsheets i guess.

For example i found out that for my gear , Tracker's blade beats The Mutilator as mutilate offhand ( hardly guessable if not using spreadsheets ).

Well, even with patch, the hit cap doesn't change tbh.. since the Precision Talent remains the same for weapon attacks ( just a poison component hit is added ). Hit cap, also, depends both from target lvl and player lvl ofc and this doesn't change in patch ( but does in wotlk ).

Anyway, the cap values for hit are actually these ( font : rogue pve dps on this forum ) :

Attack Type Boss (73) Lvl 72 Lvl 71 Lvl 70
Special 64 16 8 0
White 363 316 308 300

This is with 5/5 Precision and without draeneis ( i am horde ) and without imp FF..
So the ''hard'' hit cap, is 363 against bosses. Hard to answer ''is that value worth reaching?''.. the common answer is ''it would be if u wouldn't have to pass up on so much other stats to reach it''.
The real matter is that talking of PVE DPS , hit is a very important stats ( more than others for a combat build ), but still the dps depends from even a balance of stats , as always the best way to see if u should go up on hit , is using a spreadsheet.

 

Ikilu

It has to do with Instant poison procs and Focused Attacks. The fast one goes in the mh for Mutilate specs because finishers only proc off the main hand and since you want IP on the faster weapon, you get slightly more IP procs by putting the fast weapon in your main hand.

This has been extensively discussed recently in the thread. If you would like to learn more, use the Search function and search this thread. There is an abundance of math here and you can always use the spreadsheets too. People here aren't trying to be dismissive but the question has been asked, and answered, multiple times in the last 20 pages or so.

All my best comments during raids come from a book called, "How to be Witty at Parties"

 

• Aldriana

I just wanted to call out this statement, because while it's generally true in 2.X, it is no longer widely true in 3.0. Once you're above the poison hit cap, hit is not necessarily the best individual stat - for instance, socketing for hit isn't necessarily the way to go. Agi, AP, and Crit are increasing in value relative to hit, such that for some rogues, Agi may well be a better individual stat. To figure out whether you're in this category, I recommend use of, that's right, you guessed it, a spreadsheet.

 

Kukulcan

Actually using Vulajin's sheet for 3.0 ( BC version ) seems like that regemming all my stuff on agi gems ( or almost all ) would be a dps improve even with a combat build. So i guess it must be like that.

 

spookz

For 3.0 the bold part is no longer true.
Even for Combat builds AP/AGI are getting really close or, depending on your gearlevel, are overtaking hit.

For me (mid Sunwell) and a 5/51/5 build the values are approximately like this (used Vulajins BC 4.1 Sheet with standard raidbuffs):

AP = 1
Agi = 2.18
Exp = 2.05
Hit = 1.86
Crit = 1.85
Haste= 1.83
ArP = 1.81

As you can see Agi is clearly the winner here, followed by exp(until dodgecapped) and AP quite close.
Hit, Crit, HAste and even ArP are all in the same ballpark but far behind Agi/AP.

 

swelt

Can I just ask to confirm the reasoning on this? As I understand it, it goes like this:
1) Assumption: you will be using instant + deadly poison because this gives maximum dps and enables envenom
2) you want instant poison on the fastest dagger to get maximum procs
3) you want instant poison on your main hand because specials have a chance to proc instant poison as well
ergo, instant poison on fastest dagger in main hand.

The reason I wanted to pick up on this is that I believe it's getting picked up and repeated out of context. People are talking about this in the context of levelling, which is natural given the imminent expansion. I don't know about you, but I won't be using deadly poison for levelling, I've always found it hazardous to leave dots on everything I touch in a solo environment. I figure you can either take all the poison talents and level with instant poison on both weapons (with deadly brew applying crippling for 'is poisoned') or you could ignore improved poisons and go with dual wound for a surprisingly small loss in DPS. The latter option gives very fast apply rates, and thus short time to 'is poisoned' which might make it more appealing for levelling. It also frees up talent points low in the assassination tree for other useful levelling talents like remorseless attacks or improved eviscerate. In this context, with dual wound poison and no improved poisons, the reason to have the faster dagger in mainhand is hardly compelling, surely balanced or even outweighed by the larger mutilate (or even ambush) damage.

Now I totally understand that you are focussed on modelling sustained pve dps. What I'm concerned about is that this message is being repeated and distilled out to the masses, and they are ending up banking bigger better mainhand daggers in favour of Edge of Oppression, which I believe to be a mistake.

Given the number of people that will be coming here, prompted by the patch, looking for the latest wisdom, could we craft some kind of simple guidelines? I'll have a go at a starter:

1) for raid dps, use instant poison on one hand, deadly poison on the other. In most cases, apply instant poison to the faster dagger and put this in your main hand for maximum instant poison procs. Use the spreadsheet to determine the optimal weapon combination. The reason for this is that gaining additional instant poison procs has a significant impact on your overall DPS
2) for other situations (e.g. solo play), consider the poisons that you will use and equip your weapons to suit. Options include:
- instant+deadly, as raid pve
- instant+instant, relies on deadly brew to apply crippling poison, higher average damage dagger in main hand
- wound+wound, if not using improved poisons talent and/or deadly brew, higher average damage dagger in main hand

I'm not suggesting these guidelines are accurate, but rather I'm saying that it would be really useful to get these kind of guidelines published and clear to help the community during this period of change.

 

Casupaa

Looking at the daggers at our disposal, it's obvious that they want us to use 1.8 daggers, from an itemization point of view. Mutilate is not working as intended, when a 156 dps dagger, beats a 171 dps one. Speed dependent FA, would be the more "fun" way of trying to fix this problem, possibly tweaking lethality, to make up for inadequate damage.

 

Epsilar