Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 15

angi · 07/21/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by wuffles

Well for a cycle more similar to a rogue, you would need to be able to maintain 1cp SR and 4/5 rip (to match 1SnD/5rupture), and I'm not sure we'll be able to pull that off without something like combat potency, ruthlessness, imp. SnD(in our case it would be imp. SR), or relentless strikes. At first glance, it seems like we will need atleast a 2cp Savage Roar to keep it up without having to hit everything perfectly and refresh it before it expires. Currently, that doesn't seem too difficult to fit in, but that's counting 2pc t4 procs and a higher crit rate than what I expect we'll see in WotLK. I'm just not sure OoC and Primal Fury will be consistant enough to keep both SR and Rip up for maximum duration.

It will be interesting to see if rake becomes worth it or not - it doesn't look like arms warriors will be taking trauma.

Tigers Fury gives 120 energy per minute thats around 20 energy more per 12s cycle or approx 1,5 cp more. 2T4 is half of that. Savage Roar is only interesting with 5cp in my eyes, because the uptime is then over around 2 cycles and you can rip or fb in between. It should be perfectly timeable with Berserk cooldown so you get it over the full time of Berserk leading to fat burst dmg.

coredumperror · 07/21/08, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by halmmar

[Braxxis' Staff of Slumber] was an awesome level 64 staff. Not the level 70 rare you'd think it would be, given its stats.

Don't forget that Braxxis and Earthwarden had no stam on them in their original incarnations. The stam was added in 2.1 I believe (maybe earlier?) because they'd been improperly itemized. Seeing as how this is still extremely early beta, and we're seeing sweeping changes left and right, I don't see why we can't expect that weapon to get some more tanking stats by the time it goes live.

Vodrin · 07/21/08, 7:12 PM

Rogues don't 1pt SnD 5pt Rupture. Thats only doable with 2pc tier4 bonus. In sunwell gear 5s5r or 4s5r is optimal.

Moof · 07/21/08, 8:56 PM

I can imagine Savage Roar still being in its very early stages seeing as we never heard anything about it until the Beta (although, I guess that's fairly obvious seeing this is the beta after all). Also there's the fact that no talents so far seem to affect it unlike Nourish which has 2. I'm guessing there will be a modification to an existing talent to allow for increased duration similar to that of Slice and Dice. Savage Fury seems quite fitting to include it, although my only concern would be that it would mean another "must have" talent to spend points on in an already somewhat bloated tree.

Boevis · 07/21/08, 9:02 PM

That is certainly one interesting thing about that talent, as your gear improves and your finishers are avoided less (assisted by the 10 expertise) the talent becomes increasingly less useful. Likely, it will be very useful simply for the 10 expertise.

charriu · 07/22/08, 6:04 AM

While browsing through the wotlk spells on wowhead, I noticed, that the Rip tooltip had changed in an interesting way:

Finishing move that causes damage over time.  
Damage increases per combo point and by your attack power:
  1 point: [(138 + 0.01 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  2 points: [(237 + 0.02 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  3 points: [(336 + 0.03 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  4 points: [(435 + 0.04 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  5 points: [(534 + 0.05 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.

Astral · 07/22/08, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

That is certainly one interesting thing about that talent, as your gear improves and your finishers are avoided less (assisted by the 10 expertise) the talent becomes increasingly less useful. Likely, it will be very useful simply for the 10 expertise.

Thinking outside of the "end-game box" (where +hit/exp. gear actually exists), it's also a Tier 4 talent. It's available at lvl 25/26, or 27/28 if you choose to get Primal Fury first to get those finishers out faster (yay monkey gear). There is no +hit or expertise at these levels (except for [Expert Goldminer's Helmet]), so that -5% target avoidance is pretty good to level up with (especially if you want to take on mobs higher than your level).

manapaws · 07/22/08, 10:55 AM

It seems the majority have commented on the bloated tree.

However, perhaps this is an intentional move by Blizzard? It serves to allow there to be multiple feasible specs instead of one cookie cutter, and allows for different playstyles and different requirements (ie 10m/25/pvp). IMHO it's a good move - allows for some personality. I'd say on EJ forums within a few months will be mathematically optimised talents / gear stats anyway

Additionally, I remember during the Beta of TBC, Blizzard saying it was trying to redo gear. They were trying to make more options available so that everyone wouldnt look identical like at the end of BWL's era. This is up to each individual's opinion as to whether this was achieved or not - I think it was by adding some stats (Pene/Exp/Haste etc) and with gems allowing further customisation. Perhaps this is Blizzards next step in allowing people to define their own character.

In conclusion it is, of course, very early days and much could change yet.

tlbj6142 · 07/22/08, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by manapaws

It seems the majority have commented on the bloated tree.

However, perhaps this is an intentional move by Blizzard? It serves to allow there to be multiple feasible specs instead of one cookie cutter, and allows for different playstyles and different requirements (ie 10m/25/pvp).

But the current tree with its "cookie cutter" build means I can be a great bear and a great kitty with one spec (for PvE). Which, IMO, is one of greatest benefits a Feral Druid has over other tanking classes (or melee DPS classes). With the new trees I have to nerf one of the two forms to be great in the other form. Which, destroys the class as a whole. And as such nerfs one of the "benefits" of being a Feral.

Malazaar · 07/22/08, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by charriu

While browsing through the wotlk spells on wowhead, I noticed, that the Rip tooltip had changed in an interesting way:

Finishing move that causes damage over time.  
Damage increases per combo point and by your attack power:
  1 point: [(138 + 0.01 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  2 points: [(237 + 0.02 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  3 points: [(336 + 0.03 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  4 points: [(435 + 0.04 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.
  5 points: [(534 + 0.05 * AP) * 6] damage over 12 sec.

That would mean that they finally fixed the tooltip after i petitioned it like a thousand times. It also suggests that they fixed the missing AP bonus for the fifth combo point (currently it's 0.04 * AP for both 4 and 5 CP).

With savage roar, mangle and trauma up you will be seeing some sick rip ticks (up to 2k i imagine).

Currently i'm a bit disappointed about rake - with all the good stuff they did to ferals this skill is still pretty lackluster (scales a lot worse than mangle even with mangle and trauma up).

Another thing that has been bothering me is mangle. With imp. mangle, ferocity and 2t6, mangle will only cost you 29 energy. It may even surpass shred in those situations, considering the fast cp-buildup.

manapaws · 07/22/08, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

With the new trees I have to nerf one of the two forms to be great in the other form. Which, destroys the class as a whole. And as such nerfs one of the "benefits" of being a Feral.

I completely agree with this. It's why I enjoy playing my feral over my previous one-role class. It's also why I / We get raid spots. It is early days, and perhaps lots of trimming is still to be done.

You can't honestly believe that all of us fulfil the same roles though. For exmaple in my previous guild, since we raided with 2 ferals, I was cat form around 95% of the time. In my current guild, since we run with 1, I am bear form 95% of the time. There are also many roles somewhere inbetween on this spectrum. I am of the opinion that one should be able to weight their gear (already possible) and their talents to suit.

Regardless of anything, druids will be the ONLY (not sure about DK's?) class who can fulfil 2 roles in one raid. In all seriousness, we do not know what type of encounters we'll face in WOTLK yet and that will have an influence on our playstyle and talent choices.

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

means I can be a great bear and a great kitty with one spec

With all the damage buffs we're getting, ie Tigers Fury, Savage Roar, Mangle affecting Maul et al. there were a few in this thread worried about impending nerfs. Perhaps not being able to be 100% awesome at both bear and kitty is the way to control that?

That being said, Im going to run with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for my PVE tanking build.

Valerian · 07/22/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Another thing that has been bothering me is mangle. With imp. mangle, ferocity and 2t6, mangle will only cost you 29 energy. It may even surpass shred in those situations, considering the fast cp-buildup.

Mangle is 160% Weapon damage. This is increased by Savage Fury to 192% Weapon damage. Shred is 225% Weapon damage increased to 292.5% with mangle up.

Therefore:

1.92/29 = 0.0662
2.925/42 = 0.0696

Shred still scales better than mangle in terms of DPE and it has a higher constant damage portion as well, even with improved mangle and 2T6. This is not including the 10% extra shred damage from Rend and Tear either which makes shred even better. The combo point factor does make it a bit more appealing but its a significant loss of DPE switching from shred to mangle. It would make our cycles much easier though :P

tlbj6142 · 07/22/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by manapaws

That being said, Im going to run with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for my PVE tanking build.

Maybe it is just me, but the old Primal Tenacity was nearly worthless and the new version is worst. Not sure what, if any, benefit it provides. Unless, of course, boss mobs start stunning us every 30s for 6s. Then, the "while stunned" damage reduction might be worth considering.

At this point, I'm trying to decide if I can give up Intensity. I've never lived without it, so I'm not sure how much I depend on the "instant 10 rage". FWIW, is that 10 more rage than normal Enrage? Or do you just get 10 of the enrage rage up front when you have this talent? If it is the later, I can probably live without it. Just need to wait an extra second before pulling. If it is the former, well that extra 10 rage is real nice during a pull.

Valerian · 07/22/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

Maybe it is just me, but the old Primal Tenacity was nearly worthless and the new version is worst. Not sure what, if any, benefit it provides. Unless, of course, boss mobs start stunning us every 30s for 6s. Then, the "while stunned" damage reduction might be worth considering.

At this point, I'm trying to decide if I can give up Intensity. I've never lived without it, so I'm not sure how much I depend on the "instant 10 rage". FWIW, is that 10 more rage than normal Enrage? Or do you just get 10 of the enrage rage up front when you have this talent? If it is the later, I can probably live without it. Just need to wait an extra second before pulling. If it is the former, well that extra 10 rage is real nice during a pull.

I believe its 10 extra rage, not just 10 rage up front. The only real problem I have with the talent tree at the moment is that infected wounds might be worthwhile to take for PvE if its usuable on bosses. In that case I'd have a problem fitting in all the talents, though removing 5 talents from natural shapeshifter/master shapeshifter allows a fair bit of leeway. Really 2-3 more points would be all I really need, so merging or reducing some of the talents, even just a little, would probably provide enough to get all the necessary tanking and dps talents. I think reducing predatory strikes to a 3 point talent (with the same effect) would be the simplest solution.

Sh4d0wfury · 07/22/08, 12:24 PM

It's 10 extra rage

Once I tried to raid without intensify and it's a nightmare. Going into bear form and wating 3 seconds before you can mangle is quite a pain when you are doing timed event ZA or saving someones life. It takes a while to get used to it.

I would probably raid with this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , 10 expertise improves threat generating alot, which seems to be the new focus on wrath and it's alot more usefull than primal tenacity. Maybe dropping predatory instincts for master shapeshifter, but i think it's not worth it

Wednesday · 07/22/08, 12:33 PM

Looking at the official wow-europe talent calculators, the tooltip for Infected Wounds reads:

While in Cat Form, Bear Form or Dire Bear Form, increases your damage from melle critical strikes by 2/4/6% and your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by 3/6/9%.

Edit: Ah, my bad. Disregard.

angi · 07/22/08, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sh4d0wfury

It's 10 extra rage

Once I tried to raid without intensify and it's a nightmare. Going into bear form and wating 3 seconds before you can mangle is quite a pain when you are doing timed event ZA or saving someones life. It takes a while to get used to it.

I left it since we can skill Nurturing Instinct and put the last point in Natures Grasp for PVP and i barely miss it. If you need rage you simply have to time your Enrage so that you have enough rage before the pull or simply wait until your first white hit. After that the 3 talent points in Intensity are worth nothing. If you have rage problems you can simply wear more dmg gear.

Originally Posted by Wednesday

Looking at the official wow-europe talent calculators, the tooltip for Infected Wounds reads:

While in Cat Form, Bear Form or Dire Bear Form, increases your damage from melle critical strikes by 2/4/6% and your chance to avoid area of effect attacks by 3/6/9%.

They are currently bugged, Infected Wounds and Predatory Instincts are exchanged and they are not up to date.

Inaiwae · 07/22/08, 2:33 PM

I am trying to calculate what dmg would Rake have to deliver in order to be viable in our dps rotation. I think it simply needs to do more damage than Shred, otherwise why include it in our damage cycles?

But i am not able to find out what is the base damage for Shred formula ("Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 743 to the target."). I expect it is "paw base damage" + ATP modification, but what is "paw damage"?

Ovidus · 07/22/08, 2:56 PM

Isn't it just damage range shown in character screen? That multiplied by 2,25 and then 743 added on top of that.

Polynices · 07/22/08, 3:17 PM

I have never had Intensity and I have never had any problem tanking anywhere up to T5 (as MT/OT and early T6 (as OT). Three talent points is a whole lot for something that's just a crutch. You really don't need it. And that frees up 3 points for much more useful stuff.

Maeltne · 07/22/08, 3:37 PM

Just found this:

Idol of Perspicacious Attacks - Items - WOWDB

Idol of Perspicacious Attacks
Binds when picked up
Unique
Relic Idol
Requires Level 74
Equip: Increases the damage dealt by your Maul ability by 120 and Swipe ability by 24.

IMHO swipe should change to hitting 5 targets, and also apply infected wounds.

Grotholl · 07/22/08, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Inaiwae

I am trying to calculate what dmg would Rake have to deliver in order to be viable in our dps rotation. I think it simply needs to do more damage than Shred, otherwise why include it in our damage cycles?

But i am not able to find out what is the base damage for Shred formula ("Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 743 to the target."). I expect it is "paw base damage" + ATP modification, but what is "paw damage"?

Looking at Wowhead;

"Rake the target for [AP / 100 + 90] bleed damage and an additional [138 + AP * 0.06] damage over 9 sec. Awards 1 combo point."

So with about 2000 attack power,

2000/100+90=110('Initial' damage)
138+2000*0.06=258(DoT)

Correct me if i'm wrong.

The damage multiplier would have to be greatly increased for it to be viable.

EDIT: I was just using 2000 for the sake of the example, but thanks for the correction.(If anything, it shows how poorly rake scales, DOUBLE the attack power and only 120 more damage?!)

Ja7us · 07/22/08, 3:54 PM

2000? Ferals at level 70 have 4000+ attack power, so that would be 130 instant and 378 bleed damage. Still not beefy enough to muscle out Shred (or even Mangle), but it does get the Mangle bonus (as well as Trauma, which Shred does not). It's also boosted by Savage Fury; with Mangle, Savage Fury and Trauma all up it's getting +30%, +30% and +20%. Does anyone know if these are additive or multiplicative?

If additive: 914 damage, ignores armor; 1171 on a crit or so.

If multiplicative: 1030 damage, 1320 or so on a crit.

Rake may also be made better, depending on cycle time, because of its effect on Shred via Rend and Tear. If cycles are too long to keep Rip up constantly, a Rake to ensure the target is bled may be a DPS increase.

Relative · 07/22/08, 4:09 PM

As someone whos been messing around with dps cycles (granted, I'm only lvl 71 at this point) I've found the following things.

1) My crit is lower, I generate combo points more slowly.

2) Shred is amazing due to Rend and Tear

3) Even with rend/tear, on a fully sundered mob, Rip still feels like a better option

4) Rake is useful (getting to that in a sec)

My current "best dps cycle" has been the following:

Mangle, Rake, Shred to 4,5 cp, rip
Tigers fury (with King of the Jungle)
Mangle, shred to 4,5 cp, repeat

So rake is currently only being used by 'me' to get the extra 10% shred dmg for my first cycle IF I don't crit the mangle and the rake (and therefore, would just rip)

I'll WWS some of tests (if it lets me)once I get home from work and post them.