Noctivagant

Regarding feral, I find the crit changes deflating relative to the excitement from the talents.

With 2x CP generation and iLoP it obviously has a very direct impact on effectiveness. Where is the community at in measuring the net gain from the "nerf" versus the buffs, or is it just too early to tell?

 

tlbj6142

Here's the blue quote I have read...

So, it looks like IW is their fix. I have always though it was a lag issue as it seems only happen PvP where lag issues are doubled since 2 players are involved, not just 1.

 

TimWischmeier

Beside the already mentioned IW fix and the fact that this is indeed rarther a technical issue than a bug, I got aware of this bluepost (07/23/08):
source

 

tlbj6142

That's probably what I'll do (though I'm not sure what I'll give-up to take ILotP). I wonder if Primal Precision >> Savage Fury for leveling given that you often have very little +hit while leveling and all of your attacks are face-to-face which allows mobs to Parry as well as Dodge. So, the -5% mob avoidance (for all white and yellow attacks) might prove to be better than +20% DPS on Mangle.

 

Moof

I like this idea. Perhaps giving increased chance to dodge for a few seconds or something making it similar to a mini-evasion. Many have been asking for barkskin in forms for quite a while now and it would definitely help with cat survivability in pvp. Although with cower on a such a short cd, it would be slightly OP, that could be fixed by changing it to say, a 30sec cd and tripling the threat reduction to match.

 

Duilliath

Yes, I saw that. I don't quite think it's the end-all be-all solution he claims it to be, especially not after stating so bluntly there is no bug. There have been loads of videos uploaded, there have been plenty of reports (including nice graphics for the Blues to look at) and this rubs me the wrong way.

I was expecting the bug fix to be more along the lines of a repositioning of the catform model (so the front paws would be at the start of the hitbox).

 

Malazaar

I'm a bit confused, is our agi:crit ratio changed from 25:1 to 40:1 at lvl70 or does it deflate to 40:1 at Level 80 ?

 

Druidiful

I believe that it is switching to 40:1 at 70 and then declining on the way to 80.

 

Pike

So...rather than making monsters tougher at level 70 to make things challenging, they upped our ratios? Then, as we level, they go back to where they were?

 

◊ Merple

From my understanding, we'll take a hit at 70, and it'll get worse from there.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

• Astrylian

Are you guys forgetting that we get more agi on gear as we level up? Needing more agi per crit with each level isn't "getting worse".

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kalbear

To be clear, they're matching the agi:crit ratios that druids have with the agi:crit ratio that rogues and enhancement shamen have. It's a nerf to what cat form had before, but it also means that the same itemization that rogues will want we'll want. At least in theory; as pointed out rogues will also be getting a lot more +hit that druids will not want so much, so it won't be as ideal.

It is in the sense that the other classes are not changing similarly to druids. Rogues are essentially unchanged from their ratio; it is only cats that are changing. So yes, that is getting worse.

Considering that the gear that is desirable for a high-tier raiding cat won't be replaced for a fairly large chunk of the 70-80 curve (and quite possibly not until T7) you're looking at a very large nerf in overall crit chance, as there will be no gear you'll be replacing any time to make up for that. If you do want to make up for crit, you'll have to do it via crit%, not via agility.

 

joe_in_hell

Everyone lost crit/hit from 60 to 70, it's no surprise to lose it again from 70 to 80.
You don't only lose crit from agi, you will also lose crit from critrating as you level

 

Rannasha

But we're looking at a significant loss of crit-chance as soon as patch 3.0 goes live. On top of the normal crit-loss you get when you level up. With a modest 600 AGI, you will lose 9% crit-chance when you start leveling compared to what you have now.

 

kalbear

To reiterate - if you go up against a lvl 70 as a lvl 70 now, you will have an X% chance of crit.

In the beta, if you go up against a lvl 70 as a lvl 70, you will have an (X-10)% of crit.

This has nothing to do with level vs level, gaining levels as you improve, etc. This is blizzard rebalancing how the stats work.

 

Melthu

Yes, but that was true for everyone. This time we're getting hit harder than other classes, which amounts to a nerf in our relative power. Unless for some reason this is relieved at level 80 (for example, our agi:crit ratio remains the same as it was at 70 while it decreases for other classes, which is highly unlikely) we will be underpowered relative to classes like rogues (after all, we're weaker now even with our buffed agi:crit ratio).

Don't take this as complete doom and gloom; we still have very little knowledge of what the game will be like at level 80. It's possible that thanks to our new talents and abilities (Savage Roar) our stat conversion ratios needed to be brought down to the same level as other classes to be balanced. The only thing that is certain is that well-geared druids will be hit harder than other classes in terms of "lost" stats when the expansion hits, but it's not like feral druids have trouble grinding.

 

coredumperror

I haven't seen anyone mention the extremely strong buff that Faerie Fire is getting in Wrath. The lvl 76 rank of it gives a whopping 1260 Armor pen. Every previous rank of the buff has provided a static increase of 110 ArP per rank. The new rank in Wrath gives 650 more than the highest BC rank. That also makes it more than 50% better than Curse of Recklessness's 800 ArP buff, unless Blizz adds a new rank for that curse as well (there isn't a new rank of it on Wowhead).

Boss armor is surely going to go up as well, but I can't imagine this change as being anything but a major buff, even to the point where Restos may be asked to keep it on bosses if there's no moonkin/feral in the raid (though the chance of that scenario is also going to go down drastically as well, with all the synergy buffs Moonkins are getting). However, this also means that bringing a Feral DPS to a raid with no Moonkin adds even more synergy.

 

Mijae

While the change to agility is a nerf to that stat, it doesn't mean the spec is being nerfed. Agility scaled too well for us in relation to other stats and they needed to bring it back in line. When the patch goes in, we'll be losing crit but gaining AP. By changing it so that one stat is not greatly superior to another, we can even better utilize gear that has it's item points distributed over more stats.

Maybe the gains and losses will balance out, maybe not. My initial number crunching showed us still gaining damage overall at 70.

Regardless, you can't just look at a single change and say it breaks us.

DruidStats_v3.0.2.2.xls - 10/17/2008

 

TimWischmeier

The talent calculator on the official homepage is showing a change in the description of the berserk talent: "Berserk instantly clears all effects which cause loss of control of your character and makes you immune to them for the duration while in bear/direbear/cat form."

Does anyone know if this is the fact in the current beta? And does anyone know whether you can shift whithout loosing the berserk buff?

 

Ravager

I agree. Having a 40%-50% crit chance seemed like a really obscure way to scale our DPS - the argument mostly being "our white damage is pathetic". I always considered crits to be something of a bonus and it seemed a little weird (although I didn't complain much) that I was critting half the time.

Hopefully with the changes we can expect more consistent damage that scales better with AP than just by loading up on as much crit as humanly possible.

 

Duilliath

Actually, that's the same one that mobs were using.

 

tenshirou

Time for some math. At my current level of gear, I have 1100 dps. With the change in crit, I will lose 11% crit. In general you gain 1% of dps per 1% of crit. With Primal Fury, the increase in combo points actually makes it close to a 15% drop in dps, but I am going to go with the 11%. So on the day 3.0 comes out, I lose 121 dps.

The only buff to our dps we get on that day is to Predatory Instincts comes out to 210 more ap or at 14 ap per dps, or 15.7 dps. So I am down 106 dps yet.

Now Tiger's Fury is being changed such that it is useful now. Every 30 seconds, I can increase the amount of damage done by 77 for 6 seconds. In 6 seconds I get 6 white attacks and assuming a full energy bar, 4 yellow attacks. We will say they were all mangle buffed shreds. So in 6 seconds, I get 462 extra white damage and 400 extra yellow damage, or 862 total. Now I have to average that out to the 30 seconds of cooldown so 28 extra dps. Still missing 76 dps from where I was.

Now why didnt I use the King of the Jungle talent, well, because I am comparing what I lose versus gain the day of the patch with as few changes as possible. The closest build to what I use now is:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
If I wanted to change my spec, I could come up with this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
I do not have any solid numbers on how much of dps boost KotJ is, but the 4% crit is easy, 4%. Leaving me 40dps shy of where I was yet. Now here comes the other reason why I was avoiding new talents. Moving 7 points around allows a rogue to get the new Unfair Advantage and Prey on the Weak. 25% increase to crit damage and 2% increase change to crit. I once again do not have solid numbers to say how much of a boost in damage that is, but I am willing to bet it comes out higher than Master Shapeshifter and KotJ.

Two last notes, we do not get our 25% ap increase until lvl 75. I have not heard what amount of ap we will have at that time, but I can make some educated guesses. [Bloodwood Greatstaff] is roughly analogous to the mt hyjal staff at lvl 76. So it is safe to assume if you have any badge gear/T6 you will be using it still. This leads me to a second point, [Summoner's Stone Gavel] is lvl 75 and sunwell quality. Itemization wise, we are one the short end of the stick again. I really hope they do something to offset our scaling because otherwise, I do not see how any raid would ever count on feral dps, we may only be allowed to tank in endgame.

PS that 11% crit hit, its going to cause rage problems in bear form. I get a lot of my rage right now from the extra rage I get from crits. Less rage = less threat = us not being as viable of tanks.

Edit: It changed my links to the item itself. >.> Lookup Bloodwood Greatstaff and Summoner's Stone Gavel on wowhead's beta site.

 

tlbj6142

If we have reduced crit, I hope we get some other means to generate combo points as Primal Fury becomes less useful if our crit rate is low. Being able to 4/5cp rip, or 4/5 cp SR, after 2-3 yellow attacks is nice. Especially with the new Tiger's Fury/KotJ mechanism. They'd have to give us a ton more AP to make up for the CP loss.

Edit: Yeah! What he (above) said....lol

 

Relative

Tenshirou:

You are forgetting the extra 20% attack power from weapon that we get from Pred. Strikes. You are also leaving out Rend and Tear, which is an additional 10% shred damage, as well as another 3% all stats from SotF. Also (if you care) 10 expertise from talents should tighten up your DPS cycles.

In addition to the above talents, itemization looks to have made a shift toward stats like haste, expertise, armor pen, hit and crit. How all this will play out at 80 with raid gear is yet to be seen, but I doubt we'll be left out of the DPS fun.

 

◊ Lord BEEF