Shadow Priest: Help me melt faces!

tedv · 05/29/08, 12:43 PM

The main theorycrafting thread has been getting a bit glutted lately with basic requests about gearing and play choices. Since we're supposed to keep these threads clean of discussion not related to actual bleeding edge theorycrafting (see: Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Public Discussion), think of this thread as a place to ask those questions. A few basic things to remember:

This is NOT a substitute for reading the theorycrafting thread. Make sure you read the root post at the very least.
People don't have to help you just because you ask. The less effort you put into your question (spelling, formatting, and background research you've done), the less likely you are to get a useful response. Saying "srry for the msspelings" is not a substitute for actual effort. If you want a quality answer, write a quality question.
If you're just asking for a quick answer without culling 50+ pages of theorycrafting, please don't argue about the responses you get from people who have read the whole thread (and probably contributed to a lot of it too). You're asking us to do your thinking for you. Have some faith.
All the general posting rules apply as well. Fill our your profile, don't sign your posts, don't troll, and so on.

Edit: There are a few things that have a pretty big impact on your DPS that people neglect to mention, so please include them.

Whether you have a shaman (50 DPS from wrath of air, plus more from bloodlust)
Your latency (the difference between 150 ms and 350 ms is huge)

SpriestlyFaede · 05/29/08, 12:53 PM

DPS Improvement in Hyjal

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I am having a problem hitting high dps at my current raiding progression.
I am 2/5 hyjal, working on kael & vashj still.

(1) What should a shadow priest expect as far as dps for hyjal/early BT
I have 1181 unbuffed shadow damage.

wws says I did apx 740 dps on anthereon. mindflay was 40% of my damage.
I am doing something wrong and want to improve. I've been told i should be hitting 1000.
I use facemelter & classtimer mods for dot tracking.
I use typically vt-swp-mb-swd-mf, then refresh on cooldowns.
Inner focus is macroed to SWP for mana sake.
I use a stopcasting macro on mindflay to not cut off ticks.
I read How to fix your DPS - Maximising DPS 101 on shadowpriest.com.
I WANT to improve and i'm willing to work for it.

Reverie · 05/29/08, 12:53 PM

Reposting from the parent thread so people who may have the question can reference here and will be editing my original post out.

QUESTION:

Originally Posted by Reverie

I've a few questions regarding consumable usage in raids, particularly Destruction Potions. It's common knowledge that the S.Priest motto is pretty much "Shadow Priests: We pot so you don't have to.", however now on shorter, tank/spank fights (Teron, mostly) I can chain-pot Destruction Potions instead of Mana Potions, and see a VERY nice return on DPS. My questions are: 1) Is there a certain point in a SPs stats (Damage, IFSR regen, etc.) that allows usage of Destruction Pots over Mana Pots in longer fights (Council, Illidan, etc.)? And 2) how badly does haste impact the ability to use potions? To clarify, haste increases damage throughput, but reduces mana efficiency, we all know this, but how badly does this reduce in mana efficiency affect the ability to switch from Super Mana Potions to Destruction Potions?

REPLIES:

Originally Posted by Snowy

When you're first getting to Council, Illidan, I don't think you can afford to use Destruction pots. Your damage and mana efficiency (and more importantly the fights take longer when you first encounter them) pretty much dictate keeping your potion timer free for mana pots. Even going back now, I occasionally have to pot on Council. You aren't going to have a huge abundance of haste at a BT-gear level so it doesn't really play into the equation. That's Sunwell gear, and once you get into the Sunwell fights, mana shouldn't really be an issue at all. I've used very few mana potions in Sunwell -- mostly at M'uru and even then it was only until I learned the rhythm/time of the fight to reliably Shadowfiend each time.

Originally Posted by rooj

Actually, I think one of the reasons haste is so good for us, is that unlike other classes it doesnt' actually reduce mana efficiency. Remember, our mana regen is based on dps, and haste increases dps, which means the faster we do dmg, the faster we gain mana. At a certain gear level and with other consumables (oils, flasks), I find myself nearly never having to pot outside of either, 1) dying early, 2) having to cast a ton of dispels or PWSs. I would imagine that destro pots would be fine regardless of the length of the fight.

As for gear level, I am at about 1296 shadow dmg with 85 haste and don't have a need for supermana pots in normal situations as long as I use spelldmg food, weapon oil and flask.

• Snowy · 05/29/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by SpriestlyFaede

wws says I did apx 740 dps on anthereon. mindflay was 40% of my damage.
I am doing something wrong and want to improve. I've been told i should be hitting 1000.
I use facemelter & classtimer mods for dot tracking.
I use typically vt-swp-mb-swd-mf, then refresh on cooldowns.

If 40% of your damage is from Mind Flay, you're not refreshing on cooldowns. I am looking at a WWS from last summer, when I should have had a gear level comparable to yours. I did exactly 1000 DPS at Anetheron, with the following skill breakdown: Siawyn - WWS

Even anazlying my own, I can find flaws -- at the time I definitely was not using SWD enough, although getting hit by Carrion Swarm can preclude the use of SWD for a while. Still 30% mind flay is a lot better than 40%. Remember that flay is really "filler" damage, inbetween MB/SWD cooldowns.

To show a more mature gear level and distribution, this is my WWS from back in early April. I don't think I had any Sunwell gear at the time, so this was full BT gear, doing 1479 DPS at Anetheron: Siawyn - WWS

As you can see Mind Flay damage has dropped to 25%. I used more SWD, even though the fight length was notably shorter. The screaming message out of this is if your Mind Flay damage is 35%-40% or even higher, that should be a red flag that you aren't using MB/SWD enough, or you're not using every GCD appropriately.

SpriestlyFaede · 05/29/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Snowy

If 40% of your damage is from Mind Flay, you're not refreshing on cooldowns......The screaming message out of this is if your Mind Flay damage is 35%-40% or even higher, that should be a red flag that you aren't using MB/SWD enough, or you're not using every GCD appropriately.

Thank you. I find myself afraid to use Death at each cooldown. Is it better to interrupt a mf then when swd cooldown comes up mid cast? I think I fear I will put my healers out if they are healing me through SWD's if im using them constantly. Should I add in VE to my hyjal rotation or learn to trust my healers ? =)
I will track wws tonight and report on it.

tedv · 05/29/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by SpriestlyFaede

Thank you. I find myself afraid to use Death at each cooldown. Is it better to interrupt a mf then when swd cooldown comes up mid cast? I think I fear I will put my healers out if they are healing me through SWD's if im using them constantly. Should I add in VE to my hyjal rotation or learn to trust my healers ? =)
I will track wws tonight and report on it.

I would always use VE, unless it's a trash monster that will die in less than 15 seconds. I recommend using Shadow Word: Death regularly. It will train your healers to toss you heals every 12 seconds, and it's a sizable DPS increase. If mana isn't an issue, you should be interrupting Mind Flay at the 2 second mark whenever ANY cooldown is up: Touch, Blast, Pain, or Death.

SpriestlyFaede · 05/29/08, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

I would always use VE, unless it's a trash monster that will die in less than 15 seconds. I recommend using Shadow Word: Death regularly. It will train your healers to toss you heals every 12 seconds, and it's a sizable DPS increase. If mana isn't an issue, you should be interrupting Mind Flay at the 2 second mark whenever ANY cooldown is up: Touch, Blast, Pain, or Death.

Wonderful! I will use SWD at each cooldown tonight. Mana hasnt been an issue even on the long al'ar fights we have, so I will interrupt the MF's. Ive also started making Destruction pots since my mana has been ok, for boss fights.
I look forward to posting WWS for our raid tonight and being able to post it here for feedback and hopefully see a MF damage reduction closer to 30%.

rooj · 05/29/08, 2:20 PM

I have noticed (and this makes sense from a theorycrafting point of view) that the more haste I have, the higher % of my damage comes from MF. We get more MFs in, and ta-da, more % of dmg done.

• Snowy · 05/29/08, 2:51 PM

That's actually a good point too. My last Brutallus, 1637 DPS: Siawyn - WWS

32% MF
25% MB
16% SWP
13% VT
10% SWD
1% DP

For full context of anyone analyzing this, I used food, elixir (not a flask), and oil. 3 drums, 1 bloodlust, no WoA (mages needed TA.) I did not soak.

[e] Going even further, you can compare Woob & I. Woob did 1677 DPS. He was flasked and had WoA, so that was a noticable difference. He also had 7 drums, and used 3 destro pots. The difference is I have about 100 more haste rating than he did at the time. (it's even greater now due to the OH + neck that I picked up later) When click on Priests and compare us side by side, you can see quite clearly the difference:

We both cast 42 Mind Blasts.
I cast 24 SWD to his 22. (he got burned but it was late so I'm not sure how much it affected him)
We both had 100 VT ticks
He had 1 more SWP tick than I did.

The difference was I had 196 Mind Flay ticks compared to his 177.

rooj · 05/29/08, 3:11 PM

I noticed that you used Elixir of Draenic Wisdom (along with major shadow power). Do you prefer DW to Mageblood? (Because of the dmg buff from DS?) Or was it just because of how much cheaper DW is compared to mageblood and since mana probably isn't an issue anymore for you anyway. I imagine with the 2.4 change to spirit regen, Draenic Wisdom provides a decent amount of mana regen on its own.

The cost of flasks has started to go insane on my server (nightmare vine prices have gone bonkers). Sadly, I think flasks are still more economical than elixirs only because of how many times I die during progression raids, but I am hopeful that once I learn not to die as often, I can look for alternatives to flasks.

tedv · 05/29/08, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by rooj

I noticed that you used Elixir of Draenic Wisdom (along with major shadow power). Do you prefer DW to Mageblood? (Because of the dmg buff from DS?) Or was it just because of how much cheaper DW is compared to mageblood and since mana probably isn't an issue anymore for you anyway. I imagine with the 2.4 change to spirit regen, Draenic Wisdom provides a decent amount of mana regen on its own.

Draenic Wisdom is way more mana regen than mageblood. I think like 2x or more. If you're using elixirs anyway, that's the one to use. Flask of Pure Death is still the best choice for increasing DPS though.

SpriestlyFaede · 05/29/08, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by rooj

I noticed that you used Elixir of Draenic Wisdom (along with major shadow power). Do you prefer DW to Mageblood? (Because of the dmg buff from DS?) Or was it just because of how much cheaper DW is compared to mageblood and since mana probably isn't an issue anymore for you anyway.

Wisdom and Major SP are on my armory because a group of us did a Kara badge run last night. Im an alchemist so I make my own flasks (love the procs) and use Flask of Pure Death for each raid. Im trying to use up the last of my wisdom's/adepts/shadow power pots on runs like kara to get some use of of them and get them out of my inventory

They arent something I generally use, and never in a 25 man. I prefer the flask.

Originally Posted by tedv

Draenic Wisdom is way more mana regen than mageblood. I think like 2x or more. If you're using elixirs anyway, that's the one to use. Flask of Pure Death is still the best choice for increasing DPS though.

Yeah, I don't use Mageblood, I dont find it the best choice for the toons Ive played (spriest, mage, shaman).

Originally Posted by rooj

I think flasks are still more economical than elixirs only because of how many times I die during progression raids, but I am hopeful that once I learn not to die as often, I can look for alternatives to flasks.

If you want a cheap set for learning besides flasks I do recommend DW. Its a better choice imo than Mageblood. Find yourself a guildy who is Elixir Specced and will give you the procs.
For Progression raids, what do you mean? Do you have access to the aldor/scryer flask vendor? That would be a free alternative if you dont have to spend dkp. If your guild is getting those token drops ask for some for progression nights.

• Snowy · 05/29/08, 3:49 PM

As others have said, DW is better than Mageblood, and also is worth a little more damage if you have a Improved Divine Spirit priest in the raid. I just elixir from Kalecgos->Felmyst since that's purely farm content, and save the flask for Twins->K'J.

wow · 05/30/08, 8:23 AM

Dunno if this belongs in this thread, but would it be worth it to completely drop socketing for bonuses with 5haste/6dmg and swap meta to MSD?

No one i've looked at uses MSD at all which should answer my question but I wanted to make sure. The other thread seems out of date on this matter and says "shadowpriests don't generally use any yellow gems".

SpriestlyFaede · 05/30/08, 9:25 AM

As promised, here is the WWS from our (1st!) Naj'entus kill last night. I sustained 865 dps (a 100 dps improvement from my usually standing)
Faede wants to hit 1000 dps. From my armory and WWS, what do I need to change to go that?

tedv · 05/30/08, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by wow

Dunno if this belongs in this thread, but would it be worth it to completely drop socketing for bonuses with 5haste/6dmg and swap meta to MSD?

No one i've looked at uses MSD at all which should answer my question but I wanted to make sure. The other thread seems out of date on this matter and says "shadowpriests don't generally use any yellow gems".

That changed when they simultaneously added a spell haste / damage orange gem cut, nerfed mystical skyfire's proc, made haste lower the global cooldown, and added ember skyfire with an easy to meet metagem requirement. It's an unholy alignment of the stars, but yes, Ember Skyfire is the way to go now. The numbers I ran a while back said that MSD is roughly a 6 spell damage upgrade over ESD if you have 0 spell haste, and this number decreases as you gain more passive haste. Once you have 150 passive haste, they are both worth 14 spell damage.

Originally Posted by SpriestlyFaede

As promised, here is the WWS from our (1st!) Naj'entus kill last night. I sustained 865 dps (a 100 dps improvement from my usually standing)
Faede wants to hit 1000 dps. From my armory and WWS, what do I need to change to go that?

First, there's the immediate issue that you are casting flash heal and bandaging. Just doing more shadow damage will heal more health per second than a bandage will due to vampiric embrace. You also lose a ton of mana when shifting out to flash heal. You are better off casting power word shield on yourself right before breaking the shield and then resuming all out damage.

Next, take a look at actual cast time. In a 408 second long fight (almost 7 minutes), you got:

Shadow Word: Pain: 98 ticks, 19.5 seconds cast time, 294 seconds uptime
Vampiric Touch: 86 ticks, 27 seconds cast time, 258 seconds uptime
Starshards: 38 ticks, 12 seconds cast time, 114 seconds uptime
Mind Blast: 27 hits, 40.5 seconds cast time
Shadow Word: Death: 16 hits, 24 seconds cast time
Mind Flay: 70 ticks, 70 seconds cast time

Totaling this up, that's a total of 193 seconds of cast time in a 408 second fight, assuming no spell haste. (If you have spell haste, that just makes this look even worse.) In other words, less than half of the fight you actually cast damaging spells. That's the real problem. Now I know that you lose some damage time while the shield is up, but that's not going to be more than one minute over a 7 minute fight. And spell pushback is going to hurt your mindflay damage if you don't have earthshield and concentration aura. But if you look at DoT uptime, that's clearly not the problem. Your pain uptime is 72%, and it really should be at least 85% on this fight. Your touch uptime is only 63%! Starshards, which can get up to 50% uptime, only hit 28%.

Looking at actual Vampiric Touch uptime relative to other damage spells, you dealt 275945 damage that could trigger Vampiric Touch, or a maximum of 13797 mana. You gained 12521 mana, which is only 90% efficiency. 10% of the damage you dealt didn't regenerate any mana. That could be a lot worse, but still needs improvement.

It just seems like you are spending time not casting damaging spells, and the best way to improve your damage is to cast damage spells.

SpriestlyFaede · 05/30/08, 11:13 AM

Statements from Tedv:

Originally Posted by tedv

(1)First, there's the immediate issue that you are casting flash heal and bandaging......

(2)In other words, less than half of the fight you actually cast damaging spells. That's the real problem. ....
Your pain uptime is 72%, and it really should be at least 85% on this fight. Your touch uptime is only 63%! Starshards, which can get up to 50% uptime, only hit 28%.

(3)You gained 12521 mana, which is only 90% efficiency.
10% of the damage you dealt didn't regenerate any mana. That could be a lot worse, but still needs improvement.

(4)It just seems like you are spending time not casting damaging spells, and the best way to improve your damage is to cast damage spells.

Thank you for spending the time to analyze this!
(1) Again, trust my healers. Keep up VE.
(2) Manage my GCD. I realized last night I am not fully taking advantage of a precise GCD skill rotation/preference.
(3) Always Always keep VT up. I think I was focusing on SWD cooldowns more than VT and that took some mana regen away.
(4) Cast more damage spells, work on a GCD rotation! Basically, pay more attention, get better!

Thank you for spending time to help me realize where I can improve and analyzing this WWS for me. Our guild just started using WWS the past month and we are all striving to improve.

Balkoth · 05/30/08, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by wow

Dunno if this belongs in this thread, but would it be worth it to completely drop socketing for bonuses with 5haste/6dmg and swap meta to MSD?

No one i've looked at uses MSD at all which should answer my question but I wanted to make sure. The other thread seems out of date on this matter and says "shadowpriests don't generally use any yellow gems".

Yes, the other thread is out of date. Been working on the revision, but having to set up a new web site for the guild and trying to recruit for a third of our main raid that quit put that project on the back burner for a bit. Haste gems can be used, but really only the 6 damage/5 haste gems. Even at the best case, 1 haste = 1.1 damage. Therefore, you get the following gem values:

Spinel (12 damage): 12 damage
Pyrestone (6 damage, 5 haste): 11.5 damage
Lionseye (10 haste): 11 damage

Thus, there's no reason to ever use a lionseye unless you somehow can't get a pyrestone.

Aural · 05/30/08, 8:54 PM

As a note for people, the biggest thing I did to increase my dps was to stop clipping my dots. Making sure that I cast VT with 1 second left (I've got 123 spell haste, and my party usually has drums going) and not refreshing SW:P until the last tick goes. It gets you into a rhythym, and once you get a feel for it, you'll get better at managing your casts and cooldowns. Dot Clipping cost me about 200 dps, all told. (Thanks to Snowy for the protip in the other thread!)

I have improved VE since my guild is working on Sunwell fights and the extra healing is useful, and I've found that going SW-D-Mindblast helps keep my health from spiking too badly. If you're worried about healing, keep VE up and SW-D-Mindblast instead of the other way around. If you talk to your healers and you've got consistent healing, then you should get comfortable using SW-D every cool down.

VT is your priority. Your usefulness to the raid is your mana regen, and the DPS is secondary. Keeping up VT and SW:P is a fair amount of damage, too. I usually top DPS on Illidan by keeping my dots up constantly, and just fading every time he changes form. It helps that I get to be at the front of the group, since I'm charged with mindflaying any demon that targets the warlock tank so that the other ranged casters can burst it down.

On fights with multiple mobs (trash pulls), tab-dotting can be effective, but I have more luck doing DPS to one target while having another target as my focus, keeping VT and SWP active on the focus target. It also gives better mana returns to my group mates than just hitting 5 mobs with SWP and trying to VT 3 of them.

On the help me melt faces side of things, I'm having issues on Brutallus. My guild has just started working on him, and I'm having trouble finding a position that keeps me in range of my shaman but doesn't get me slashed. Also, without the 4 piece bonus, how much DPS should I be seeing? I'm at 1400 spell damage and 123 spell haste, usually get 1 Bloodlust, elemental totems and 3 drums.

nataku · 05/31/08, 3:46 AM

Hmm, I've been puzzled with my dps on Brutallus. Even with soaking Meteor Slashes, I think I should be able to hit ~1550 dps with my gear but I've been constantly at 1450-1470 dps despite having a resto shaman.

Any thoughts? I'm flasked/oiled/food but only popped one destro pot on this particular attempt.

Wow Web Stats

My professions would be a source of increase and I'm pretty close to dropping Tailoring for Leatherworking. The other thing that jumps out at me is how much less average damage I do compared with other people with similar gear which I can only attribute to lower ISB uptime (one lock was fire, another is new'ish).

Missa · 05/31/08, 4:38 AM

Could a moderator please delete this post? Thanks. I had to edit out my post because there's apparently some pretty major flaws, and I see how option to delete it.