dedmonwakeen

A while ago I created a multi-player event simulator to model caster dps...... and now I'm finally getting around to the physical dps classes.

I'm truly grateful for the wealth of information on these boards and on wow-wiki, but I have a few nagging questions before I can complete my architecture. I believe I've trolled through enough "Search Results" to warrant posting a question. Or at least my desire for information has come to outweigh my fear of public ridicule anyway.........

Question #1
I guess this is more of a terminology question: Can I use the term "bleed" to refer to all Physical DoTs? (with the implication being that they benefit from Mangle and suffer no armor-based damage reduction).

Question #2
Are glance/block/crit valid attack-table results for DoTs? For example: Can the application of Rend be a Glancing Blow, in which case the damage ticks would be ( Total_Rend_Damage * Glancing_Blow_Reduction ) / Num_Ticks? Or can Rend be Blocked, in which case the damage ticks would be ( Total_Rend_Damage - Target_Block_Value ) / Num_Ticks? Is the answer ability-specific?

Question #3
For casters, the modeling of target-debuff damage-multipliers was pretty straight-forward: All direct-damage spells included the multiplier at end-of-cast. All dot-damage spells queried the multiplier at each and every tick. The mechanics of Mangle would give me the impression that Physical DoTs work in a similar manner. However, are there any damage-multipliers affecting Physical-DoTs that are included at the point of attack?

Thanks in advance for any insight you have to offer.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

sp00n

1)
Sure, I don't see why not.

2)
I think there is a possibility that the application itself is blocked (as in totally blocked - no application), but I'm not entirely sure. Besides this, there is only a hit / no hit mechanic, i.e. no glancing blows (would be a special attack anyways, which do not suffer from glancing blows) or crits.

3)
Debuffs/Buffs affecting a physical DoT that are present at the time of application do count for the whole duration of the DoT effect (this is the cause for those 'a more powerful spell' messages when trying to refresh Rupture while it's still ticking and you procced mongoose on the first application). They are however of course affected by abilities such as shield wall or cheat death.

 

Iliyan

I don't believe that there are ways to reduce Bleed effect ticks, outside ticks that are based on percentages of base damage( Aka Ignite, but thats a DoT anyway.. not a bleed)
HOWEVER, I believe that RESILIENCE reduces all periodic damage ticks( including bleeds).

Bleeds, same as DoTs can not crit.

Hope that helps, I'm sure you will get more "coherent responses" from someone more knowledgeable then me.

 

dedmonwakeen

Ah..... I should have made this connection myself! Thanks, sp00n!

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rhaegal

1) I'm not 100% sure that every physical DoT in the game is considered a bleed, but all player-inflicted ones (Rend, Impale, Rupture, Rip, Rake, Lacerate... is that all?) are. For the purposes of this model, I'd say it's a fair assumption.

2) No. The application of bleeds cannot glance. All bleeds are specials, for which glancing is irrelevant, and the only one that isn't always applied by a special (Impale) can't be applied by a glancing blow. I'm fairly certain blocks don't factor in either. I think the only blocks I've ever seen on DoT applications are on Rake and Lacerate, which have up-front damage components and the damage of the DoT is not affected by the fact that the initial damage was blocked. Even if the up-front damage is less than the block value of the mob or player, the DoT gets applied in full. And, like caster DoTs, bleeds cannot crit. (Exceptions being the up-front damage of Rake and Lacerate, but again, critting that or not has no effect on the resulting DoT damage.)

3) Not that I'm aware of, and I don't think the mechanics exist to determine whether or not a debuff was on the mob upon application of the DoT, only whether it's on them on a per-tick basis. While the base damage of bleeds are determined upon application (i.e., temporary AP buffs will increase the damage of Rip, Rupture, etc., for the duration of the DoT even if the AP buff fades before the DoT), the actual damage per tick is base damage times any multipliers from buffs/debuffs at the time of each tick, just like spell DoTs.

Incidentally, you have to be a little careful about using the terms "bleed" and "physical DoT" interchangeably. The up-front damage of Lacerate and Rake are considered bleed damage despite not being associated with the DoT, and are therefore not reduced by armor. I don't think there are currently any other player abilities with direct bleed damage effects, but that doesn't mean there won't be in the future, or that mobs don't have such attacks available.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

• Feist-Mok

I know that the application of a rogues Rupture can miss/be parried/be dodged (aside from being negated by expertise/surprise attacks of course).

I don't believe any of those things can happen to individual ticks, and I am fairly certain that Blocks cannot happen here.

Also, are you rolling in Rogue Poisons into this consideration? If so, you cannot consider them all to be 'bleeds' as our poisons are all Nature damage, and have their own mechanics entirely.

 

Rhaegal

Poisons are elemental damage, like you said. There's no reason for them to be included in this discussion any more than you would include Serpent Sting or an enhancement shaman's Flame Shock, despite being applied by a primarily physical DPS character.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

• Feist-Mok

While this is true...
Makes me want to make sure. There are a number of non-physical DoTs applied by physical DPS classes.

 

dedmonwakeen

Thanks for this clarification...... very, very helpful.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

dedmonwakeen

I have separated an "action" into three portions:

(1) Resource cost: rage, mana, enery, focus, ...
(2) Hit-mechanics: spell hit mechanics (including binary considerations) vs attack-table mechanics
(3) Damage reduction: spell dmg resistance vs physical dmg reduced by armor

There is a base class "Action" and two main sub-classes: Attack and Spell.
Attack and Spell are pretty much only differentiated by #2 above.

All player actions are derivations of either Attack or Spell.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Dontmindme

In terms of damage per tick, my understanding is that personal buffs are applied to all ticks. Debuffs on the boss are taken into account on a per tick basis.

So one could have a buff that increases one's AP as the bleed is applied. This value is used to determine the base damage of the bleed upon initial delivery and for all ticks. Even if this buff drops mid-bleed, the AP benefit continues to apply.

However, if the boss has a debuff that increases bleed damage by say 10%, this applies on a per tick basis. If this drops mid-bleed then the tick damage will actually decrease.

 

• Feist-Mok

Rogue Poisons are an odd duck here then. They have no resource cost, as they're a proc. They proc based on hits that follow attack table mechanics on a fixed percentage, and the procs have spell hit mechanics applied for appications/resists., as well as for damage reduction.

 

Ashere

Garrote

And yes, there are some non-player-inflicted ones available from gear as well, but such weapons don't exist around lvl 70 I think, so we can probably forget about those (for now). I have absolutely no idea either how those react to something like Mangle as well.

 

Duilliath

You might want to be careful with Rip.

Mangle can be dodgy at times and double affect it, or not at all (for at least one tick).

 

Rhaegal

For the most part, I think those are server-client communication issues, where mangle gets applied or falls off very close to the tick time, especially when the person applying mangle isn't you. I don't think it happens enough, or at least predictably enough, to try to include in a DPS model. I would assume that if this happens with Rip, it can happen with all bleeds around the application/fading of Mangle.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Valerian

Its actually because, for some reason, there are two mangle debuffs that can be put on a mob when in cat form. The normal one is Mangle (Cat), but sometimes if you time things properly you can get a debuff just called Mangle up on the mob. If a bleed was being buffed by Mangle (Cat) and somehow Mangle gets put up before the rip ticks you can get its effect added to the Mangle (Cat) effect which results in the extra rip damage. Why there's that generic Mangle debuff that can be added is unclear but it is what is causing "double" mangles.

 

dedmonwakeen

I'm writing this down someplace safe right now........ Thanks!

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

dedmonwakeen

I've had to model "triggered" actions in the past...... such as the lightning "spell" that gets cast on Lightning Capacitor procs.

I -do- have questions about how Improved Poisons and Master Poisoner work (Like: Are they additive or multiplicative?) But..... I need to do some homework first before starting a new thread question on poisons.......

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Gruntle

You're mixing up Impale and Deep wounds. Impale adds damage to all yellow critical hits, Deep wounds applies a bleed for all your critical hits based on weapon damage. You're of course right that a glancing blow will never apply the bleed though.

 

Rhaegal

Doh! Thanks for the correction. My warrior has been prot so long that the arms tree other than Deflection, Imp TC, and Imp HS are vague memories at best.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Yoruiichi

And Pounce =)

In response to the statement:
1) (Rend, Impale, Rupture, Rip, Rake, Lacerate... is that all?)

 

alienangel

I'm curious how debuffs on the boss that affect your personal stats for calculations affect this (e.g. Imp hunter's mark) - the extra AP from IHM will go through your usual talents and set bonus modifiers to calculate the damage of say, a Sinister Strike - would it affect the damage for a rupture though? I'd guess the application of the buff wouldn't change rupture damage on the per-tick basis, but it may or may not change the initial value calculated for all ticks.

 

mek

Lacerate had some very strange interactions with Mangle, probably due to it being stackable. Not sure if it's still the case, but it was definitely weird and might end up being a special case.

I agree that Lacerate, when fully blocked, still applies the dot, but from leveling a druid I seem to recall that Rake, if fully blocked, would not apply the dot. I could be wrong.

The flat value of the bleed (as a result of your character's statistics) is checked on application only. But debuffs and buffs on the target (like Mangle, Shield Wall, and whatever other % modifiers might be present) are checked per tick. Exactly the same as spell-based dots.

 

Duilliath

Well, since some Ferals have managed to apply the double mangle with a high probability of success (there's an explicit post explaining how to do so somewhere near the end of the Feral Mega Thread), it should at least be noted as possiby behaving quite funky - what with double modifiers boosting it.

 

Jone

Yeah, I was posting more on Mangle abuse mechanics, but the sad part is, I really do think it's abuse and not suitable for an EJ thread. There is a great deal of oddity with the way mangle applies, and I suspect the differentiating of bear and cat mangle in Wrath is mostly an attempt to stop these glitches.