Atren

Amaxe: 100% chance there is typo, it is actually PPM. Probably each point improves PPM by equal share.

 

vesicular

Possible you had some stacks up when you died and it persisted through death? I noticed just know as I logged in I started fighting a target dummy and i got a full stack on the first hit. It occurred to me I may have had a 4 stack when I logged out. After testing, MW does persist when you log out. I wonder if they're also letting it persist through death.

 

Acks

Thank you Krim and Malan.

Yea, im not concerned with my dps per se, just using it as a baseline (lv80 premade gear, no changes) and then tweaking other things.

Malan, how do you find mana regen in a raid setting? Are you being grouped with hunter/spriest? On the Boss dummy, i am having ~30 seconds of OOM before SR is ready each time, so i'm curious if raid buffs (specifically hunter/spriest regen mechanics, pally buffs) balances us out in this respect. My guess is that it would. Heck, even a single mana pot could carry me through a 5-6 minute boss fight self-buffed according to the numbers im seeing now.

One other thing, what are you guys using for metrics? I dont trust recount for comparisons. WWS doesnt work. Ive seen links to wowmetrics.com or something, as well as something called Stasis (open source) available via google code. Do you guys vouch for either of these as a better means of parsing my logs?

Cheers

 

Krim

Then make WF scale with haste. End tier talents that do not scale directly with gear; but through other talents are just plain bad. If they have to make WF scale with haste they should allow it - it's not like WF is going to 1 shot people anymore.

 

◊ Malan

Mana is frequently tight in a 5 man. In the 10 man raid I did last night (was the first chance I've had to raid on beta) I didn't find it too bad, but I was unable to consistently use Lightning Shield. We had a hunter but he was BM I think so he didn't have the mana return buff, and we had a druid for replenishment but no shadow priest. So I ran dry several times even with water shield up, but had any of those other mana buffing classes been present I think I could have maintained LS the entire time.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

uffdabock

I was just on the PTR a minute ago and I noticed the ability Spirit Hunt {Your Spirit Wolves' attacks heal them and you for 5 sec. (10 sec cooldown)} was no longer there. Is this ability no longer a cd and just always up? The heals also appeared to be healing for more than usually. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

 

Sprout

Ok eitehr I am doing something wrong or there is something weird going on here...


Test:

20 min
dual badges fists, WF/WF
Imp WF totem, flurry, 75 haste rating from gear

Was using a full rotation to best emulate actual raids. (priority MW/SS/ES/LL)
Had a war with me in the group

I was seeing about 1500 dps, about 200 more than last patch. Thats good in my mind, right where is should have been.

Mana was running out just before or right as I hit the SR timer. With replenish it should not be an issue.

Now, as to MW proc, I got 138 procs in 20 minutes on 2 weapons. That is ~ 17.25 PPM. Much higher than other testers. I am going to rerun without special attacks to see if the PPM changes. The ONLY thing I can think that is different is the special attacks. (SS/ES/LL/WF procs)


On another note:

During my rotation ES was constantly stepping on SS for GCD, which meant I was either delaying SS or ES. Obviously SS came 1st, so I was basically losing alot of ES dmg because I was effewctively only cassting every 7.5 seconds. Earthshock eveyr 7.5 sec instead of every 6 seconds reduces total ES dmg by ~20%. ES was accounting for 10% of my dmg, so you are effectivly losing 2% dmg because of this.

My thought was either to use the ES glyph to prevent the GCD issue (0.5s GCD for ES). You could do SS/ES/LL and pretty much stick to that except for MW procs. This would get you pretty much the full 2% back. The quesiton is does the SS glyph give you more than 2% more dmg.

----
ok back to testing without special attacks. I will edit this post in a bit.


Test:
25 min
no totems
No special
No haste except flurry

54 procs- ~10.8 ppm

 

◊ Malan

You need to test with a single weapon for PPM with no specials.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Morelis

Anyone else finding that even having to stand there and eat the full cast time using Lava Burst is still a net gain in DPS? The clearcasting procs also do wonders for my mana efficiency, which since I'm still wearing a lot of Sunwell leather, is quite poor. On the lvl80 dummies I'm gaining about 200 DPS by swapping ES for FS and using LvB whenever it's off cooldown over just using SS, ES, LL and LB on a 5 stack.

 

Malleus

What is giving you 6-second CD on Stormstrike?

 

Krim

With Elemental Fury and the guaranteed crit from Lava Burst it'll hit for some 6-7k value; with it's 2 second cast the DPS is higher than you'd generate through auto-attack. If you can time Lava Burst and cast it when WF is off-cd without any MW stacks it should prove to be an increase, yes.

However - timing your WF and MW procs and using Lava Burst in between this should be allowed - distinguishes the good from the bad in my opinion.

Fixed. Sorry for the mistake.

A question about Spirit Wolves - how much are they healing for? On the PTR for me they only heal for 1 - 2. Might be a display bug, not sure though as I'm using Blizzard default UI - only addon is recount.

 

Aylii

They just integrated the ability within the wolves and removed the cast button, since it was going off every 10 seconds anyways.

 

Sprout

One note for my PVP brethren.

MW is purge/dispel-able. At first glance this seems be bad, but in my mind its actually really good thing. MW can now be used as protection for your buffs. Might even work with healing grace, making 13 points into resto a possible enh config to protect SR, Hero, etc.

 

• Krish

You're testing on a dummy, most likely. The wolves heal for a % of the damage they actually deal, and the dummies have 1HP (the rest is "overkill").

 

Krim

Thank you. If it's a %, could someone suggest Spirit Wolves' Spirit Hunt ability also regenerating a % of mana for the damage. I was thinking a value like 50% of the damage they deal is granted as mana as well as health. Would help in both PvP and PvE.

 

Urgok

I simulated my shaman earlier today using LvB instead of earthshock I lose about 160dps, I don't have a beta account so I'm sorry to say I can't provide you with more concrete information.

It looks like mana consumption goes down by quite a bit though, 13000 using LB, 9500 with LvB and 9100 with LvB and Elemental Focus.

 

Gurth999

SR get moved back to being able to be dispelled? I certainly don't see dumping 13 points in resto for 30% dispel resistance being a good move for pvp. Elemental focus and elemental devastation will probably do just as good a job protecting other buffs as healing grace would and they have other uses besides.

As for whether MW is dispellable being good or not, that depends on what you consider more important, having buff x up, or getting your instant spell. Personally I think I'd probably rather have MW as not dispellable, but I don't expect that will happen either. There was talk blizzard (I don't remember if that was from an interview or just a blue post) was changing the way dispels would prioritize but I've seen nothing about that recently.

 

Mengus

Imp SS and 4pc PvP bonus i'd assume

 

• Aeolian

I do not believe they stack.

 

Illundai

They do, but the bonus is -1 sec on Stormstrike on Beta.

 

◊ Malan

No its still the same.

When they crit you'll get healed for over a thousand, otherwise its a steady stream of 300-400 healing every 1-2 seconds.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

• Suryaa

Alright buddy, hop down from that soapbox, no one cried wolf to Blizzard here.. I gave a brief example of how to test a possible bug Malan found in his experience with the latest MV. Afterward, it was followed by an in game observation of my own, towards the new MW. It seemed productive enough to me at the time when there was clearly a possibility of a bug. Your response on the other hand was a bit unnecessary. Thank you for spending the time to respond to me, though in the future, I am one of the last people you need to educate here.

Using slowWF/slowWF I was seeing the same proc rate as I did with the lighting knives crit based MW. It was a short test as mana is suddenly a factor these days. Maybe the current PPM is or maybe it isn't intended/bugged because clearly in small groups mana is an issue now. If we were getting procs from other people then that was a bug and my post was intended to snuff that out. I think what we all want is a 100% working as intended MW that we can start to work with. If there are problems with unintended procs from other players as well as a problem with below 1 sec increase of PPM, then they need to be found out now, while the devs still want to spend the time to balance our class properly. Last thing anyone wants is for them to come along two months from now and notice something isn't right. They then decide to fix it, suddenly we are doing under par dps and they do nothing to bring us back in line.

Yes, the off the chart scaling which crit would have fueled to the old MW (if you had the mana to sustain it) is a non factor with the new PPM system, so end game gear won't scale exponentially now. The problem is, in a test using high haste/haste procs, when attack speed dropped below 1 second the PPM jumped from 12.4 to 16.4 with a single weapon, which needs to be addressed. I tested it three times to make sure it wasn’t a fluke but clearly this isn't nearly enough. We need hours of hard testing to verify the true proc rate. If it is scaling below 1 second then you have to ask will that impact weapon speed selection. If so, will it be enough to push us back to fast weapons? I’m thinking fast/fast is very unlikely. It may simply push slowWF/fastFT which seems to be right in line with the devs goals, but if it is scaling below 1 sec the sim would have to recognize this to give proper output. After we see proper sim numbers backed up by in game reinforcement of those numbers we will know where we stand.

 

Rounced

My response was related to this.

So maybe you should back off a bit and actually look at what you typed.

The bug that happened with Malan is a concern and it will be found but your post wasn't only about the bug and I have no issues at all with what you wrote regarding that. My issue was only with the statement of judgement you placed in that in game observation.

Oh and Lightning Knives stacked FASTER then this PPM system does, not by just a little bit but by almost double.

You only get a 36% proc rate when you use a 2.6 speed weapon. Lightning Knives was running your crit rate + 9% or roughly the exact same rate but on 1.4 speed weapons hasted down to under a second. So in actual fact the stacking rate for the crit mechanic with Lightning Knives was 86% faster then what we are currently seeing.

Does that math make sense to you, chief, or should I try to explain it in simpler terms.

 

• Suryaa

Look “chief,” no where in any of my posts did I state PPM out preformed crit lightning knives. In fact I’m pretty sure I spoke of crit MW scaling off the charts with gear.

If you are going to post numbers in the attempt to be condescending you should at least be thorough about it and add in all of the factors like SS and LL. In your words you are being unproductive.

The fact that the numbers are consistent until you go under 1 second is what needs to be looked into, and the purpose of my last post. You didn’t even bother to acknowledge that fact.

 

polocabbit