Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 110

polocabbit · 10/06/08, 11:51 PM

@Rounced: Here are my test results based off of the requested information in one of your previous posts.

Weapon Speed: 2.0
Haste: 12.48%
Test Time: 20 minutes

Maelstrom Weapon w/o Flurry

Naked w/o WF Totem:           196 Procs     9.8PPM
Naked w/ WF Totem:            230 Procs     11.5PPM
Geared Haste w/o WF Totem:    232 Procs     11.6PPM
Geared Hastte w/ WF Totem:    248 Procs     12.4PPM

Maelstrom Weapon w/ Flurry

Naked w/o WF Totem:           212 Procs     10.6PPM     (Flurry: 30% Uptime)
Naked w/ WF Totem:            239 Procs     11.9PPM     (Flurry: 28% Uptime)
Geared Haste w/o WF Totem:    273 Procs     13.6PPM     (Flurry: 58% Uptime)
Geared Hastte w/ WF Totem:    302 Procs     15.1PPM     (Flurry: 53% Uptime)

@Sprout: No, that was me. I answered you a few times with yes, but it seems your chat window was being flooded or something and you weren't able to see my response.

Rounced · 10/07/08, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by polocabbit

@Rounced: Here are my test results based off of the requested information in one of your previous posts.

That's awesome, thanks so much for the testing. So it looks reasonably good that the Proc rate is based purely on the base weapon speed and that haste will then increase MW's PPM rate.

beetlejuice · 10/07/08, 3:21 AM

I made a search in the forum, i haven't seen anyone to discuss the issue of

Static shock talent doesn't seem to critical hit and thus it doesn't benefit Elemental devastation.

I checked it some minutes ago on the PTR server, i just want to say that this seems to be a worthless talent for pve, if it remains like that. Only reason to use it, would be pvp and just to benefit from the 9 charges in total, of lightning shield.

Tornhoof · 10/07/08, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by mek

Yes, the WF glyph is that bad, as are other effects (such as totems and the old Improved WF totem) which affect WF's AP bonus only. (eg. one of the new 80 ones is significantly worse than Stonebreaker's Totem).

Which reminds me, are those * Totem of Indomitability relicts still working with Lava Lash? Most of the relicts I saw are quite bad for enh.

polocabbit · 10/07/08, 4:18 AM

Ghostcralwer just made a post concerning Maelstrom Weapon

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Maelstrom Weapon -- We have a concern that the proc per minute frequency is too often. According to our numbers, it's balanced for a two-handed weapon and a bit generous for a dual-wielder. However, this would be a nerf to Enhancement dps overall that we'd have to make up elsewhere, and it seems to be a fun change shamans are enjoying. So we're going to let this ride for now. It's something to keep an eye on, but we aren't going to change it yet.

(source)

I'm hoping they leave it in its current state because she's absolutely right about it being a really good change. However I'm concerned about how they might nerf our dps if they feel that the PPM is actually too high and attempt to adjust for it through other talents/spells.

Gurth999 · 10/07/08, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by polocabbit

Ghostcralwer just made a post concerning Maelstrom Weapon

(source)

I'm hoping they leave it in its current state because she's absolutely right about it being a really good change. However I'm concerned about how they might nerf our dps if they feel that the PPM is actually too high and attempt to adjust for it through other talents/spells.

I dont think the concern is so much about enhance overall dps as GC mentions nerfing the PPM would require 'making it up elsewhere'. They might be concerned about the ratio of spell dps to melee, or just the amount of contribution made by the 5 points in MW. (I was almost ready to suggest they might be concerned about MW making enhance too good in pvp but it just made me laugh.)

thunderfang · 10/07/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by beetlejuice

I made a search in the forum, i haven't seen anyone to discuss the issue of

Static shock talent doesn't seem to critical hit and thus it doesn't benefit Elemental devastation.

I checked it some minutes ago on the PTR server, i just want to say that this seems to be a worthless talent for pve, if it remains like that. Only reason to use it, would be pvp and just to benefit from the 9 charges in total, of lightning shield.

Static Shock procs Lightning Shield, and Lightning Shield never crits.

Pitbuller · 10/07/08, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by beetlejuice

I made a search in the forum, i haven't seen anyone to discuss the issue of

Static shock talent doesn't seem to critical hit and thus it doesn't benefit Elemental devastation.

I checked it some minutes ago on the PTR server, i just want to say that this seems to be a worthless talent for pve, if it remains like that. Only reason to use it, would be pvp and just to benefit from the 9 charges in total, of lightning shield.

Lightning shield is damage shield and this is reason why it's not crit. Static shock use lightning shield orb and do no crit. Reason yuo pick static shock is 150dps. Very solid talent. Our job is do dps no matter do it crit or not. We pick every dps talent. You can ask and beg blizzard to change it to crit but before that it's still dps talent.

If you are worried about mana then spec to convection. You can still use 2/3 of time water shield and do more dps.
Static shock do 50dps per point and cost 100mp5 + water shield globes.
Concussion give 9dps per point. Convection give 20mp5 per point.

Stopokingme · 10/07/08, 9:35 AM

New post by Ghostcrawler about shamans in general, here the excerpt concerning our spec:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Maelstrom Weapon -- We have a concern that the proc per minute frequency is too often. According to our numbers, it's balanced for a two-handed weapon and a bit generous for a dual-wielder. However, this would be a nerf to Enhancement dps overall that we'd have to make up elsewhere, and it seems to be a fun change shamans are enjoying. So we're going to let this ride for now. It's something to keep an eye on, but we aren't going to change it yet.

Source: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Shaman Changes

mek · 10/07/08, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

According to our numbers, it's balanced for a two-handed weapon and a bit generous for a dual-wielder.

Does this make anyone else a little bit squeamish? Is there even the slightest hint anywhere in the Enhancement tree of wielding a 2-hander being anything other than... archaic? This is the first word Blizzard has breathed about Enhancement using a 2hander in over 2 years, and I find it totally incomprehensible.

◊ Malan · 10/07/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by mek

Does this make anyone else a little bit squeamish? Is there even the slightest hint anywhere in the Enhancement tree of wielding a 2-hander being anything other than... archaic? This is the first word Blizzard has breathed about Enhancement using a 2hander in over 2 years, and I find it totally incomprehensible.

I believe GC's statement was a polite way of saying "Someone fucked up and set MW's PPM to the wrong value." It should not be read as some attempt to make 2H attractive for shaman again.

Stopokingme · 10/07/08, 9:53 AM

I'm more seeing it as yet another indication of how good the communication between the various teams is.

Janraea · 10/07/08, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by mek

Does this make anyone else a little bit squeamish? Is there even the slightest hint anywhere in the Enhancement tree of wielding a 2-hander being anything other than... archaic? This is the first word Blizzard has breathed about Enhancement using a 2hander in over 2 years, and I find it totally incomprehensible.

They pulled the code for the mechanic from the retadin seal of command (which has worked that way in beta for a few patches now), and paladins all use two-handers. Nothing to worry about.

Sprout · 10/07/08, 12:22 PM

So with the results from last night are we comfortable saying that haste scales MW PPM? If so can we get a sim updated to test how well it scales?

I think we are close to a final version of our talents and skills, and I was hoping to get a jump on regemming and any gear adjustments I need for me enh set. If anything drops this week in Sunwell, I'd liek to know so I can pick up any useful pieces.

Amaxe · 10/07/08, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Lightning shield is damage shield and this is reason why it's not crit. Static shock use lightning shield orb and do no crit. Reason yuo pick static shock is 150dps. Very solid talent. Our job is do dps no matter do it crit or not. We pick every dps talent. You can ask and beg blizzard to change it to crit but before that it's still dps talent.

If you are worried about mana then spec to convection. You can still use 2/3 of time water shield and do more dps.
Static shock do 50dps per point and cost 100mp5 + water shield globes.
Concussion give 9dps per point. Convection give 20mp5 per point.

Forgive me if I misunderstand the mechanics or your intent, but doesn't Lightning Shield depend on your being struck? If the tank is doing his job right, shouldn't Static Shock be irrelevant then?

Am I misunderstanding something crucial here?

Mman · 10/07/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Amaxe

Forgive me if I misunderstand the mechanics or your intent, but doesn't Lightning Shield depend on your being struck? If the tank is doing his job right, shouldn't Static Shock be irrelevant then?

Am I misunderstanding something crucial here?

You do know Static Shock allows your melee hits to proc your lightning shield orbs, right?

gojant · 10/07/08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Amaxe

Forgive me if I misunderstand the mechanics or your intent, but doesn't Lightning Shield depend on your being struck? If the tank is doing his job right, shouldn't Static Shock be irrelevant then?

Am I misunderstanding something crucial here?

The talent Static Shock has a 2/4/6% chance to discharge a Lightning Shield orb, it also adds 1/2/3 shields per point in the talent.

Krim · 10/07/08, 12:45 PM

Static Shock procs when you hit the enemy - 6% chance.

I'm testing my PPM now. Using the same weapon all the time (mongoose'd Rising Tide). Will run with:
- Naked w/o Flurry/WF totem
- Naked w/o Flurry
- Naked w/ Flurry/WF Totem
- Geared w/o Flurry/WF totem
- Geared w/o Flurry
- Geared w/o WF Totem

Will edit my results in later on. Each test will be around 5 mins approx.

Mman · 10/07/08, 12:57 PM

Why use a weapon with mongoose? That adds another level of complexity because we don't know how the ppm uses that particular source of haste. Just buy a cheap green 2.0 speed weapon for ease.

I still don't think it is clear how maelstrom is treating different sources of haste. Nothing has really been consistent, everybody has reported different results at different times.

I think the main thing to test for with haste now is maelstrom is treating geared haste. Somebody needs to do a good long test naked and with maybe 2 different amounts of haste on their gear so that you have 3 tests with like 0%, 5%, and 10% haste. If maelstrom is just using base weapon speed then the proc rate should go up as your haste goes up.

Levva · 10/07/08, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Orlgin, we have a single parse that suggests an increased proc rate and as of yet have no proof that it's due to dropping below 1s. I mean, the standard deviation of that parse was nearly 10%. It may have been a series of lucky streaks, or it may be that one or more of our haste sources is being ignored by the PPM calculations. It may be a bug. It may also be that the guy failed to report he had WF on his weapon, which certainly would account for a 20% higher proc rate. Point is, we don't have enough data to determine any of that.

Furthermore, your math on the subject is just weird numerology; the units are all wrong. You're actually calculating the number of swings in 12s, a worthless metric, which may be why everyone ignored you. Here's how you'd calculate proc chance per swing:

Procs per second = Procs per minute / 60
Chance to proc per swing = Procs per second * Swings per Second

Or if you please: (Procs Per Minute * Swings Per Second) / 60

With a 12.4 PPM, PPS ~= .206
3.6s weapon: .744 chance per swing * 16.67 swings per second ~= 12.4
.5s weapon: .103 chance per swing * 120 swings per second ~= 12.4

We can be reasonably sure that Blizzard knows how to do this calculation, since it's one of the more important elements of the proc-happy BC expansion.

There really shouldn't be anything magic about 1.0...as a troll with DS, I routinely drop below 1s with Bloodlust up. It doesn't make my PPMs go nuts.

Is there a typo here? I suspect you mean Swings per minute? If not thats one hell of a haste rating required to get 120 swings PER SECOND, you'd get dizzy.

• Toots Hepcat · 10/07/08, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Is there a typo here? I suspect you mean Swings per minute? If not thats one hell of a haste rating required to get 120 swings PER SECOND, you'd get dizzy.

Lightning knives have been hell on my sense of units, man.

Amaxe · 10/07/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mman

You do know Static Shock allows your melee hits to proc your lightning shield orbs, right?

Actually no. Hence my question if I was misunderstanding the mechanic of it.

Thank you.

Of course if it is a 6% chance, I'd have to run the math to see if it is worth it. IIRC, Mongoose procs at about 4.5% for a 2.6 speed weapon. This would be an investment of 6 points for 6% chance (since I understand you need Improved Shields as well)

Still, it is a new ballgame with this fact (the talent seemed bugged when I was in PTR) and I'll have to try a spec with its inclusion.

I'm guessing it is unanimous here that Improved SS is worthless?

Sprout · 10/07/08, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mman

Why use a weapon with mongoose? That adds another level of complexity because we don't know how the ppm uses that particular source of haste. Just buy a cheap green 2.0 speed weapon for ease.

I still don't think it is clear how maelstrom is treating different sources of haste. Nothing has really been consistent, everybody has reported different results at different times.

I think the main thing to test for with haste now is maelstrom is treating geared haste. Somebody needs to do a good long test naked and with maybe 2 different amounts of haste on their gear so that you have 3 tests with like 0%, 5%, and 10% haste. If maelstrom is just using base weapon speed then the proc rate should go up as your haste goes up.

The testing last night seems pretty consistant. I do think longer tests would be nice, but there is no need to be naked to test. As long as you have no haste in the set your ok. Take a look at my tests from last night. Yes they were only 10 minutes, but if you look at the other tests done last night you will see some very good evidence of haste increaseing the PPM. More testing iss always better but I do think we have enough now to at least start simulating the results.