Beowolf

I mentioned that a couple of pages back :P

 

PsyBomb

Wolflord, that's not quite correct. If you want to stack a derived stat, the trick is getting gear with as good a spread from its sources as possible, to maximize the item budget. Stacking pure AP will be worse by a long shot than splitting between Agility, AP, Int, and Str (in that order).

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Hidden

In our current best-ingame gear we have around ~36-38% Crit unbuffed, if we had less Crit and more AP from our gear, we would be gemming Crit. It's not like crit becomes bad at 30% like you make it look, Crit will always become better as we gain more AP and the other way round, so I never see Intelligence ever becoming better than Agility per point.

Here's the quote from Beowolf that Wolflord and I were refering to:
We weren't talking about how our gear was itemized but about what stat is better to stack(that's the stat you usually gem as well), and Intellect is obviously a bad choice there.

 

Wolflord

Only we dont design the items. Our only design decisions come from gem choice, in which stacking stats is rewarded. If we reach a hypothetical point where we want to stack AP over other stats then of course we look at which items give the greatest combined stats feeding AP, but our only choice in the matter is how we gem (and obviously AP > agi/int > str in returns to attack power).

 

Deadstar

Shouldn't Linked Armor of the Sphere say "hit", instead of "melee hit"?

Other than that, this is the kind of itemization we can look forward to, no?

 

Atren

Except most stats return more than just AP. Str is useless now given the weight difference (0.5 for AP and 1 for Str). So we have 2 AP vs 1.1 AP with kings. Int is complicated as it gives more than 1 AP, but agility beats AP. Same goes with Hit and Crit ratings i bet.

I really do not see why int beats agility when we reach 30% crit.

 

Jheherrin

I cant ever see agility being worth less than intellect.

Intellect gives 1AP base, 1.1 in raids, 1.2 talented in raids, maybe 1.3 if we figure in bonus to spell crit.

Agility gives 1AP base, 1.1 in raids, crit and UR uptime.

Once agility hits 30% the only part of agility that will become less valuable is the UR uptime. The benefits from the crit will still be there as crit still affects all your attacks.

Saying that agility will be worse that Int after 30% crit is like saying that crit from agility will be worth less than 0.2AP. We currently rate agility somewhere between 1.6 and 2.5 (depending on gear and sim results) based on its bonus to crit rating. Can you really see this dropping to 0.2 in WotLK ?

 

Beowolf

We need yos to be updated to check this :P

 

Wolflord

I definitely agree that melee crit should still prove useful once we pass 30% crit. In the current game my crit is nearly 33% unbuffed and Yo's simulator puts my value of crit rating higher than it has ever been for me (rivalling strength fwiw).

 

LazyJoe

The only change affecting melee crit will be maelstrom weapons, and this talent will increase its efficiency, so it will be a better stat than it is nowadays.

 

Tana Umaga

[e]Wrong argument, post deleted.

 

Atren

What does crit contribute to (assuming DW):

1. Unleashed rage uptime -- very unlikely to have that under 99%.
2. FLURRY uptime -- Quite likely to have that under 99%. This is what most of you seem to miss. Especially with new WF totem.
3. Proccing Maelstorm weapon -- hopefully soon it wont reset swing timer.
4. Just damage.
5. Shamanistic Focus -- not sure of this uptime.

If i forget something, i am sorry.

EDIT: That is assuming agility to crit. If pure crit rating then few more come in mind:

1. Damage.
2. Elemental Devastation.
3. Elemental Focus.

 

◊ Malan

What the hell.
That's right up there with "lol you have to hit to crit!" in terms of silliness.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

LazyJoe

But if you are not hitcapped, what if you don't hit at all ? Your ap would contribute 0 to your dps ! By following this logic we should prioritize hit above everything else...

 

Luc

You should avoid trying to give advice to people based on your 'feelings' about the effect of the stat, especially on a board dedicated to theorycrafting.

If you are able to, do the math.
- Either using some calc and statistics to get accurate estimations of the relative effectiveness of each stat in it's contribution to DPS
- Or build a spreadsheet to run a simulation of a fight situation, allowing you to plug in different stat values and see the different results.
Either method, if done correctly, can give you the relative weights of each stat to a fairly accurate level.

There are plenty of examples of both methods for most every class and spec on these boards.

If the math required to do that stuff is beyond what you know (which isn't a slight on anyone's skill at actually playing the game. 98% of the playerbase wouldn't understand the reasoning behind the formula for Flurry uptime) then don't try to 'wing it' on a board filled with helpful posts by those that do understand.

There are thousands of great raiders who are not mathematicians who come here to get the best information about gear and talent selections in order to better themselves in game in each way they can. Don't go and fuck them up by confusing them with bad information.

 

berg

Now take that perfectly nice looking item and swap 40 int with 40 crit rating or 280 armor pen and it improves dramatically.

Int is not a min/max stat for us, this is just the way it is. We do not want Int, we have just been changed so that we can somewhat tolerate it.

 

Pronk

It seems like we forget some times that crit is great even if it didn't proc anything. Don't crits do more damage? Doesn't that also mean that crit increase the value of AP? I mean that if you crit with your weapon, and you do double damage, doesn't that double the value of your AP, for that hit? So then the higher your crit percentage the more additional value you'll get from AP.

Crit is still good all the way up until 100%. The issue is, as someone already pointed out, that item budget penalizes the more you stack a stat. This is only a pseudo issue for us as we have no ability to re-stat items. However, we can gem. So now to get back to the whole point of this thread and these boards, not to oversimplify things here but we're basically trying to figure out which is better, 20AP or 10 crit.

 

LazyJoe

Improved stormstrike, static shock and maelstrom weapons are going to increase our mana consumption a lot, so I believe we will need Int to keep up with our dps spells. Its use won't be limited to ap and spell crit.

I bet it'll still be limited to some extent, but won't be as negligible as it is nowadays.

 

◊ Malan

No its not. Crit rate of return diminishes as you gain more.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

berg

Lightning shield no longer has a mana cost.
20% more mana on stormstrike and a lava burst every 10-15 seconds is balanced by us dropping 5 totems every 2 minutes as opposed to ~15-20 depending on your rotations.


Even ignoring flurry crit does diminish. If you have 0% crit adding one crit represents a 1% damage increase. So you went from 100% -> 101%

If you have 50% crit and go to 51% your damage goes from 150 -> 151 which represents a .67% increase. Effectively you only improve your non-crit damage. As your gear improves so does AP since it improves 100% of your damage.

 

Stopokingme

Gems will be a lot more interesting then the bland choices we have now though, with expertise, armor penetration and haste being added in as well. With how good expertise and armor penetration are rated in current end game content, I'm wondering if we'll actually have the room for AP or crit gems.

 

LazyJoe

Crit has diminishing returns due only to flurry uptime, this is a common misconception. (I believe this isn't exactly the right place to discus this however).

Let's say you hit every second for 100 damage, no miss, no glances, no flurry.... just plain regular 100 dps.

By going from 0% crit to 1% crit you go from 100 dps to 101 dps.
-> Relative gain : 1/100 = 1% more dps.
-> Absolute gain : 1 dps

By going from 50% crit to 51% crit you go from 150 dps to 151 dps.
-> Relative gain : 1/150 = 0,666% more dps.
-> Absolute gain : 1 dps

By going from 99% crit to 100% crit you go from 199 dps to 200 dps.
-> Relative gain : 1/199 = 0,502% more dps.
-> Absolute gain : 1 dps

Every percent of crit gives you exactly the same 1 dps increase.

Crit rating doesn't have diminishing returns in term of dps output, like every other stat (except armore penetration who has increasing returns ofc )


However, item bugdet has diminishing returns (the more of a stat you have, the more it costs), so you may say crit rating has diminishing returns on item budget, but you can say the exact same thing with every stat.

 

berg

The relative increase diminishes for crit, the absolute value is unchanged like you showed above.

With AP the relative change increases with higher values in other stats (crit/haste)

Relative increases are what matter and are what we base AEP and similar metrics from.

 

Pitbuller

Still agi is better than int when under 100% crit. That nonsense start this whole crit topic. Can we be more on topic now.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

LazyJoe

Well if you take into account only relative gain, then even attack power has dimishing returns.

SAy you have a 100 dps weapon and 1400 attack power, this give you 200 dps.

Now with 2800 attack power you have 300 dps, 100 dps absolute increase, 50% relative increase

Add another 1400 ap, with 4200 attack power you have 400 dps, still 100 dps absolute increase, but only 33% relative increase.

You can do the exact same calculations for everything, haste, expertise, hit rating.....

When you say "something has diminishing returns" it means the more you have of this something, the less you gain, but this isn't the case as I just showed.

But you're right, the more crit you have, the more you will gain from other stats, you can say crit rating has increasing returns on attack power, but crit doesn't become less efficient, it is ap that becomes more efficient.


Anyway as I said it all comes down to item budget, because stacking one stat has diminishing returns in terms of item lvl.
(EDIT : and of course I was speaking only in terms of direct dps output, crit rating definitely HAS diminishing returns because of flurry)