Tjuhl

Hi, I'm Wûtz, I'm an Enhancement Shaman and I'm a PvPler. *windfury-wave*

(Joined WoW BC pretty late thus got the Season1 + PvP gear and the Season3 helmet and the gladiator weapons, beat a full Arena2 geared Hunter dmg-wise in Karazhan. Daily quest area PvP. Some 2on2 and 3on3 Arena, unfortunately not with the optimal build (I duo'd with a Disc Priest and a Ret Pala, my 3on3 team was Warrior + Priest. etc. pp.)

I put my account to a freeze a few months ago to join the Warhammer Online beta and will soon return to WoW (when WotLK releases or earlier [note to self: DON'T donate 2,500g to your former guild when you think you are leaving the game! Just DON'T! Ever! ;( ]). After spending some time with the new talent trees, I'm currently considering two builds.

(1) offensive build 11/60/0.
Max PvP damage, more relying on my healer, additional damage through improved lightning shield (+15% dmg, +3 orbs). High burst damage.

(2) Support-oriented build
Additional snare (Imp. Fire Nova Totem), ability to heal myself or others in emergencies (Eye of the Storm talent) - at the cost of Guardian Totems and improved shields. More durability, can stay longer in-fight (?).

Could you comment on those PvP-wise? Which spec would you prefer, and why? Thanks!

 

darkInertia

In addition to what Berg mentioned, we'll also have elemental focus working with the flame shock/lava burst synergy, so once you get a rotation going, a large number of our shocks and maelstrom casts will be focused through this talent.

All of our regen is through SR still, so that is what is going to limit our mana consumption, at least more than how large our mana pool is to begin with. Plus holy pallies will be judging (with the range bonus as well) for the haste bonus, so we should have JoW more than we do now (without a ret or prot pally in the raid).

 

Pronk

This really isn't a good thread for PvP discussions. Just a quick thought though, Maelstrom Weapon might have reduced pvp viability because of resil. Plus, flame shock is not a good pvp shock. Generally Earth shock or Frost shock is a better use of that timer.

 

Tornaz

It strikes me that the change to Maelstrom weapon to allow insta casting heals as well as offensive spells would make for a useful PvP utility build, going 13 deep in resto for dispel resistance. With spellpower now as a unified stat from Mental Quickness, and MQs mana reduction potentially applying to the healing mana cost for a total of 11% reduction.

 

Sprout

Everyone is assuming that

1) We are looking at balanced items. Diminishing returns on items which have very heavily stacked stats will limit min/maxing. But this means in balanced items we WILL end up with int AND agi together. Depending on the level of dimishing returns thats not necessarily a bad thing.

2) We are assuming the same or close to the same values in item budget. This is the big flaw IMHO. It makes sense with the combinations of crit hit and haste that the ibudget costs of these WILL go up. Which means regualr stats and AP will have more relative value in a purely melee environment (rogue/kitty gear comes to mind). If I were on the itemdesign team I would be putting more into Agi and AP for those sets, and soemwhat less into crit. You could then raise the agi/crit ratio for druids and rogues to bump their melee crit.

Assuming this to be the case, you will see less crit on rogue gear than mail, but more agi and AP. the mail gear for hunters and shammies would have more crit because of the types of ratations involved, but both classes would have a higher agi-> crtio ratio (which is what we have seen in the beta).

But obviously haste/hit/Crit/AP alone is not an option due to diminishing returns, so the mail will have Agi and int (hopefully in like a 2:1 ratio) to further bump the melee and spell crit, and to add AP and mana as needed. The key here is to balance the int (which is less useful when mana>0) so that shammies AND hunters both have similar mana usage. This will allow the int levels to be balanced in the gear to keep mana >0 and make the gear equally useful for both classes.


The value of agi/crit/int/AP can be debated all day long, but until we know the base item budget costs for these (Im assuming crit will change, and probably AP as well) we wont KNOW which one is better.


One last thing, agi vs int, I think the person who posted that above 30% int may have more value was thnking that with the very high 40 agi/1% melee crit value we have now (instead of 25 in BC) that the relative gains from melee crit % may be pretty close to the spell crit+ mana we gain from int. Witht eh FS/Malestrom/LvB autocrit that thinking may not be 100% true. Once again the numbers will play themselves out.

 

Pronk

The problem is it's going to be very hard to get 5 crits on someone in 15 seconds. I don't want to say it's impossible, because there's always the chance that someone would be AFK and let you just wack away, but I wouldn't waste those 5 points on that chance. 5 points in toughness is probably a better use of points. The same is sort of true if you sub elemental. Elemental devistation is not a good pvp talent. The porbablility of you being in range of someone for 10 seconds, if you get a spell crit is so unlikely that 3 points in reduced damage from fire, frost and nature is a much better use of 3 talent points.

 

• Toots Hepcat

Current mana consumption (per minute and per 5s) of a raiding shaman, assuming twisting with a 2-1-1 shock cycle and 3/3 MQ, 100% SF uptime and talented totems, all numbers approximate because i am lazy and this is not rocketry:

6 x strikes (225 mana): 1350 mp60, 112.5 mp5
8 x shocks(291): 2328 mp60, 194 mp5
10 x WFT drops (243): 2430 mp60, 202 mp5
10 x GoA drops (232): 2320 mp60, 193 mp5
----
Mana from W Shield: 600 mp60, 50 mp5
Mana from M Spring: 600 mp60, 50 mp5
----
7228 mp60, 602 mp5

Future mana consuption
7.5x strikes (225 mana): 1688 mp60, 140 mp5
10x shocks (291): 2910 mp60, 242.5 mp5
7.62x LvB (subbing level 70 LB mana cost of 300): 2286, 190 mp5
1.44 LS (376): 541, 45 mp5
----
Mana from M Spring: 600 mp60, 50 mp5
----
6825, 568 mp5

So no. If you are able to maintain a twisting cycle today, you shouldn't need any additional int to maintain a maximum dps cycle in WotlK.

Add 580 mp60, 50 mp5 for 5s shocks, and remove 541mp60, 45 mp5 if it turns out Lightning Shield is mana free when WotLK goes live (I doubt it, actually).

Worksheet:
Melee Attacks per 60: 15 (SS) + 40 (max WF) + 72 (2.6s/1.3 flurr/1.2WFT=1.6s or 36 swings/min): 127
Crits per 60 w/30% crit: 38
Potential LB/LvB Maelstrom procs: 7.62 (this must be NATO)
Spell Attacks: 17.62
Attacks that could proc LS charges: 144.62
LS chg expended/min: 8.672
LS refreshes: 1.4462

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.

 

• Toots Hepcat

If this is like other stacking procs then that 15s refreshes itself after every crit. It is ridiculous to think you WOULDN'T see 1 crit every 15s, resilience or no. If you compare like gear to like gear, a shaman should have about a 14-18% crit chance in arenas.

Anyhow, to my knowledge Maelstrom Weapon has NOT changed to allow instant cast heals -- it was changed to ONLY allow instant cast damage. The talent tree on wow.com does not reflect the most recent in-game tree -- the one on wowhead et al does. If there is a disconnect between Blizzard's documentation and the game, the game is always correct.

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.

 

Rounced

Besides with the increased spell crit chance and with the new haste associated with a windfury totem, shaman will probably be running around with a fast offhand with flametongue (or maybe frostbrand) imbued on it. Which will hit much more frequently, allowing for more crits (per unit time) and so increasing the uptime of Maelstrom Weapon.

 

dedmonwakeen

I am in the slightly odd position of being able to build a car....... yet rather unsure how to drive it.

Thanks to the folks on this forum (particularly Toots) I've added Shaman support to my simulator...... including support for most WotLK mechanics. But....... I'm uncertain how to drive it.

This is the priority list I am currently using:

actions=windfury_weapon/auto_attack/strength_of_earth_totem/grace_of_air_totem/shamanistic_rage/stormstrike/lightning_bolt-maelstrom_5/flame_shock/earth_shock/lightning_shield

"windfury_weapon" puts on the weapon imbue.... obviously, this will only get executed once

"auto_attack" merely starts the main/off hands swining (or "restarts" if you put a non-instant-cast spell in the rotation)

the "maelstrom_5" qualifier says to invoke the spell (LB in this case) only if the buff has reached a 5-stack

Would someone mind offering a good WotLK action "priority list"? Assume that conditional-logic of any kind could be used to qualify the specific actions.

Also, an armory link to someone who understands enhancement itemization would be very helpful.

Thanks!

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

• Toots Hepcat

I think what you're asking is which abilities contribute the most DPS and in what order.

Stormstrike is first, because it has a good chance to proc windfury, and this will remain our primary DPS cycle.

Maelstrom would be next, because the spd conversion (and, eventually, the auto crit from LvB) will be the highest; also, we want to expend the charge so we can start building the next one.

Then Shocks, alternate flame and earth

Then lightning shield.

Then Searing.

Then SR (every 2)

Then totem refreshes (every 2).

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.

 

Killme888

Ok... As I've previous said... Why in the hell would you even think of that? Only hybrid classes benefit at all from that, and even then, it's not an "OMG WE"RE OVERPOWERED NOW" increase. There is no way they're going to increase the itemization points for it considering all the pure physical or caster classes would essentially get nerfed, and why would they want that?

 

Adrammelech

I personally think the issue is less seeing a crit every 15 seconds, and more how often are you going to be sitting on a target to get the 5 stack? Enhancement shamans see a lot of focus fire in my experience, and so you quite often are forced to play defensively for long stretches, further, enhance isn't exactly difficult to peel (though the GW change will help with roots). Clearly, we'll have to see how things pan out, but the talent strikes me as better for raids/BG's than arenas.

 

dedmonwakeen

Thanks! That was exactly what I was looking for.

One clarification question:
Totem refreshes are Strength of Earth, Windfury, Mana Spring?

EDIT: Removed lazy question.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Paladia

Please mate, just read this thread before repeating old questions.

 

Sprout

Wouldn't it be:

SS
Mael
FS
LvB (if full mael)
CL (if full mael and no FS up)
LB (if full mael and no FS or LB)
SR
Totems


Assuming they fix the swing timer of course.

 

Rounced

If they peel you with a 4 stack just cast the spell, very hard to interrupt a 0.4 second cast, and then shift to GW and get back in the chase.

 

Sprout

you have a point about nerfing the pure classes, but how can you NOT think this wont create a problem with hybrids? It would essentially mean that pallies and shammies get double the bonus per item point. Druids not so much since they cant cast much in kitty and bear.


so for the same cost as today I am getting increase in my spell hit/crit/haste AND my melee spell hit/crit/haste.


I suppose that you might argue that since you can only do one thing at a time its not that huge of a bump, and you may be right. But it would not suprise me at ALL if bliz did change the costs.

 

Tana Umaga

Of course that was not my intention, I wasn't trying to give advice, I stated it was just an opinion about something which some people here defended before, that after some decent amount of crit other stats are better to stack (that was referring to stacking int on wotlk). And I know the profits of stacking crit beyond mere crit chance, I am ashamed to say I didn't had them in mind when I wrote this. Sorry if it led someone to confusion. I still believe that after a certain amount of crit it experiments a deceleration in its increasing benefit, but I used wrong arguments.

 

dedmonwakeen

My apologies. I got lazy. Trying to cover -all- the classes in the sim makes for a crap-ton of reading.
Still.... No excuse for being lazy. Question removed from post........

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

• Toots Hepcat

FS should always be up (see prev. post re: mana util, 5 stack should happen at most once every 8s and either way the autocrit means it's worth waiting the stack until LvB is up)

Why would we ever cast chain lightning in single mob situations? The reason elementals add CL into the rotation is for the faster cast time; a single LB will get more out of our spell damage.

Finally: I'm guessing even if they DON'T fix the swing timer issue, we'll still be using Maelstrom unless we do massive amounts of offhand damage. A swing timer like quartz can be used to minimize the MH penalty of the reset.

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.