Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 22

• Toots Hepcat · 07/24/08, 3:58 PM

Yeah, WF procs are a two roll system -- after the connect, they roll to see if they crit.

Your crit with that gear using WotLK agi conversion is 23%. Considering the occasional parried or dodged WF proc, 20% crit rate seems about right.

Beowolf · 07/24/08, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gurth999

Agi would be lower because it is now only 1% crit/40 agi.
Int would be higher because of BoK, and talent.

With the BT EP per agility rating of 1.69, and the new agil per 1% crit being 40 instead of 25, wouldnt that make the BT agil EP value drop to 1.056 ( (25/40)*1.69 ), THEN we add 1.1 for ap to it for a grand total of 2.156? That's less than STR is currently...

• Toots Hepcat · 07/24/08, 5:27 PM

Beo -- truth.

Try simming your spell hit/crit values with ED. I got about .5 for spell crit.

That means that the merged value for crit rating would be 2.19. Guess what you're gemming for at that point?

Revdarian · 07/24/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

With the BT EP per agility rating of 1.69, and the new agil per 1% crit being 40 instead of 25, wouldnt that make the BT agil EP value drop to 1.056 ( (25/40)*1.69 ), THEN we add 1.1 for ap to it for a grand total of 2.156? That's less than STR is currently...

You are forgetting that you are getting 20% haste from WF weapon which influences the score => that is why you can´t just go ahead and take the current weights.

Pronk · 07/24/08, 5:38 PM

Regarding the value of int, mana has a value. It’s just hard to quantify. For instance if you had no mana you couldn’t cast spells so the amount of damage you did from spells would be zero. Your overall dps would drop.

Int’s value = dps + talents + kings + spell crit + value of mana. We need to figure out the value of mana to figure out the true value of int.

Really what we need is the max value of mana. We already know the min value is zero. So the max value is probably the minimum mana required to hit every shock, Storm Strike, Lava Burst, etc. that our cool downs will allow, in the longest boss fight possible, taking into consideration Shamanistic rage and regen. All mana over this best case scenario would have about the same value as stam.

You can then take all the potential damage from spells, minus spell miss rate, divided by the time it took to cast those spells to get your dps from mana.

There might also be another way to value mana. For instance, under an OOM scenario you could pop your best mana pot. So how much damage from spells can you do assuming the average mana returned from the best potion, with an alch stone, divided by the 2 minute cool down.Or compare it to the opportunity cost of not being able to pop a haste pot or whatever.

I’m just saying that now that we know a larger portion of our damage is going to come from spells, and since we’ll have new game mechanics, maybe we should reevaluate some of our paradigms.

• Toots Hepcat · 07/24/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Pronk

Regarding the value of int, mana has a value. It’s just hard to quantify.

It wasn't that hard.

Result: we will have less mana utilization then we currently have when twisting, which I am able to do using 0 int on my gear, SR, super mana pots and a standard raid buff loadout without a ret paladin.

◊ Malan · 07/24/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Imabug

Maybe I'm the only one on the Beta, but I've noticed that occasionally I'll see Windfury go off and it'll proc my Maelstrom Weapons. However, close to 80% of the time, it doesn't. Has anyone else noticed this oddity? I assumed Windfury was still concidered an "Attack" by a melee weapon, unless something has changed.

About a day ago I noticed this tool. Didn't verify by looking at the logs, but I definitely opened a series of attacks on a mob, got WF crits and didn't get a stack of Maelstrom until a melee crit occurred. Bug or intended, it happened enough that I'm sure its occurring.

Beowolf · 07/24/08, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

21/50/0
You can put one point at dual wield spec to static shock if its greater dps boost. This build lose 4% melee hit and static shock. With some number crunching with my own gear this is 60dps + 100-150dps loss. So you need 160-210dps from Elemental fury. With 20% spell crit(high number) you would need 1700-2000 crittable spell dps. Yuo get now 100dps from searing totem + 150dps from shocks(no flame shock dot) + 250dps flame tongue off-hand and about 400dps from lava burst(10s avarage rotation). Total 900dps from crittable spells or 90dps from elemental fury. We just don't have enough points.

If the reports are true, and 9% to hit is ALL we need total from gear/talents for max melee and spell hits, it might be better to drop dual wield specialty all together. There are numerous top teir enhancement shamans that run with less than 100 hit rating 'and 9% or less from talents' that do amazing damage. Perhaps something like this?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros: Max UR and WF totem for the group, SOME static shock procs
Cons: 6% less overall melee hit, 4% less damage per hit with melee weapons.

Now if Static shock ends up doing much less DPS than we think, you can take those points out, as well as improved shields, and do something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Might be the best of both worlds so to speak. And updated YO's could tell us if its best to max out dual wield or max out weapon mastery.

Then again, the Wolves might do 250 dps each for all we know. Its best to leave these discussions for when they are implemented and polished, IMO.

Rounced · 07/24/08, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

If the reports are true, and 9% to hit is ALL we need total from gear/talents for max melee and spell hits, it might be better to drop dual wield specialty all together. There are numerous top teir enhancement shamans that run with less than 100 hit rating 'and 9% or less from talents' that do amazing damage. Perhaps something like this?

Don't forget about the Duel Wield penalty which will keep the hit cap on white hits at 28%. Not sure that any of the other options for those 3 points would be worth more then the dps associated with 6% of your total white damage.

Pronk · 07/24/08, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

It wasn't that hard.

Result: we will have less mana utilization then we currently have when twisting, which I am able to do using 0 int on my gear, SR, super mana pots and a standard raid buff loadout without a ret paladin.

Good call. So now we just need to now the damage caused by those spells to get the dps from mana.

Except if you have enough mana regen to sustain yourself, then int doesn't have any value, the mana regen does. Also if you're using mana pots, then int (or mana regen) will have value in the difference in damage caused between the mana pots and another trinket pot.

◊ Malan · 07/24/08, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

If the reports are true, and 9% to hit is ALL we need total from gear/talents for max melee and spell hits,

Jeezus no. Spells are special attacks. They cap at the same rate that melee special attacks do on the beta.

There is a horrible pattern in this thread since beta became public of people posting shit without understanding the mechanics on Live, let along not understanding the beta mechanics. Can we put a halt to that?

Beowolf · 07/24/08, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Jeezus no. Spells are special attacks. They cap at the same rate that melee special attacks do on the beta.

There is a horrible pattern in this thread since beta became public of people posting shit without understanding the mechanics on Live, let along not understanding the beta mechanics. Can we put a halt to that?

Edit: I understand where your confusion is coming from Malan. I know that there is still the 28% DW penalty. I was only referring to special attacks and spells with the 9%. Sorry!!!

I'm in the BETA, and I understood that clearly enough, Malan. As stated in the Enhacement shaman wiki:

Originally Posted by Enhancement Shaman Wiki

Hit Rating

Enhance Shaman do not require large amounts of Hit Rating on gear. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence. Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

...

There is no magic value of +Hit that an Enhance Shaman needs We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others. That does not mean that the goal is to have low hit rating either though. Rogues and Warriors require large amounts of +Hit to be effective because of their energy/rage feedback system and because they do not have talents that can hit cap their specials before considering hit on gear. Enhance shaman have no such feedback system and are able to hit cap specials through talents - therefore, hit rating above and beyond your talents is great to have, but is not a necessity.

You stated that on Beta, 9% hit total seemed to be enough to cap ALL special attacks, including spells, on a +3 mob in the BETA. I haven't had the chance to test this for myself, but it seems to me that our goal should be to focus on getting 9% hit from gear/gems over wasting talent points that affect only melee hits. Anything over 9% should be of even LESS value now, seeing how a far greater share of our damage will be coming from spell damage instead of 90% from melee, right? This is even more true if we are trying to trim our talent tree enough to get Elemental Fury.

Assuming people take the Dual Wield specialization talent, they will have an innate 6% chance to hit with melee and special melee attacks, but will still need to acquire enough hit rating to reach the 9% to cap out their spell hits. Getting that much hit rating would push our melee hit rating to 15% and spell hit rating to the capped 9%. Unless the DW specialization is somehow miraculously affecting spells as well, it almost seems like a waste if you have 9% from gear...

spanko · 07/24/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

With the BT EP per agility rating of 1.69, and the new agil per 1% crit being 40 instead of 25, wouldnt that make the BT agil EP value drop to 1.056 ( (25/40)*1.69 ), THEN we add 1.1 for ap to it for a grand total of 2.156? That's less than STR is currently...

I'd like to point out that a 1.69 EP rating for agility is way lower than the sim has ever given me. I've been using Yo!'s sim since it first came out for EP values since SSC/TK (I'm in a KJ farming guild now) and I've always been confused at the EP numbers Sebudai gave. No matter how much my gear changed, and it has changed a lot, I have never gotten a crit rating EP value lower than 1.9 out of the sim. I've ran it with and without LotP, I've done 10 50,000 hour runs and taken averages, all of that and 1.9 is the absolute lowest amount I've ever seen for crit rating, 1.85 for agility (w/ kings). I think the "official" AGI and Crit T6 EP numbers are very undervalued.

LazyJoe · 07/24/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

Unless the DW specialization is somehow miraculously affecting spells as well, it almost seems like a waste if you have 9% from gear...

It will atleast affect static shock (but well, 6% of a lightning orb's damage is pretty insignificant compared to a whit hit).

Anyway since we will get 20% haste from the new windfury totem, even if we will do much more magical damage, we will do 20% more white hits, so hit rating will probably still be an interesting stat. But only time will tell...

And you didn't read properly everything about hit rating, even if it is now common to melee and spell, it still converts at the old ratings, so to get 9% speel hit you will need 113 hit rating, which corresponds to 7,2% melee hit.

Beowolf · 07/24/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by LazyJoe

It will atleast affect static shock (but well, 6% of a lightning orb's damage is pretty insignificant compared to a whit hit).

Anyway since we will get 20% haste from the new windfury totem, even if we will do much more magical damage, we will do 20% more white hits, so hit rating will probably still be an interesting stat. But only time will tell...

And you didn't read properly everything about hit rating, even if it is now common to melee and spell, it still converts at the old ratings, so to get 9% speel hit you will need 113 hit rating, which corresponds to 7,2% melee hit.

Assuming they didnt sync spell/melee hit ratings to work at the same rate, an Elemental Fury talent spec like this one would be best for overall personal+raid dps. Hit capping spells, with 1 point in DW spec, will also hit cap you for melee specials:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The alternative is to completely drop Imp SS and the point in DW spec, and put all 3 points in Static Shock.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Slightly less overall raid benefit 'two fewer SS charges' but I would consider it an increase to personal DPS via 6% chance to proc your LS on the target. SS makes up roughly 9% of my damage now. A 25% increase to 9% would be roughly 11.25% of my overall damage. Will Static Shock proc enough to do more than 2.25% of my overall damage???

Wish we had a simulator for this

anion · 07/24/08, 7:47 PM

Interesting idea that the 6% melee hit talent has less value now that we'll be getting more damage from spells and will actually want to cap our spell hit (which, thankfully, seems to have been lowered to 9% for +3 level mobs).

Assuming we're supposed to be sharing gear with hunters, who already have to gather up 9% hit...one can assume that it won't be all that difficult for us to muster up that 9% (I know I have quite a bit more than that on my pve gear right now...sharing with rogues, of course)...still, DW Spec is a 6% increase to only our white damage at that point...which even if our spell damage doubles and the WF/SS to white damage ratio remains about the same, would work out to about 1/3 to 2/5ths of our damage...so you get somewhere between 2% to 2.4% dps increase for 3 talent points...seems pretty decent.

Paladia · 07/24/08, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

Slightly less overall raid benefit 'two fewer SS charges' but I would consider it an increase to personal DPS via 6% chance to proc your LS on the target. SS makes up roughly 9% of my damage now. A 25% increase to 9% would be roughly 11.25% of my overall damage. Will Static Shock proc enough to do more than 2.25% of my overall damage???

I think improved stormstrike is an absolute must and is one of the best dps increases point by point. As stormstrike in itself is a good amount of damage (10%) but it also increases UR uptime, adds flurry (without consuming it), it adds windfury procs and malestrom weapon stacks. On top of that it also adds two additional 20% damage increases for other classes.

I do not see how any viable raid build could be without it.

Beowolf · 07/24/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Paladia

I think improved stormstrike is an absolute must and is one of the best dps increases point by point. As stormstrike in itself is a good amount of damage (10%) but it also increases UR uptime, adds flurry (without consuming it), it adds windfury procs and malestrom weapon stacks. On top of that it also adds two additional 20% damage increases for other classes.

I do not see how any viable raid build could be without it.

The RAID benefit is the reason to grab it. The personal benefit, is not so great. We only need 30% crit with a 10 second SS as it is now, 2 seconds off that wont change that requirement much, IMO. Its only a 2% increase to overall PERSONAL damage for 2 talent points. Or you could put one point in DW Spec and get that same 2% increase.

Someone should do the math for POSSIBLY 2 LBs with 20% more damage vs 6% chance for you to proc Static Shock. Remember, this is WotLK, and every rogue will be using and procing TWICE the poisons compared to TBC. Do you honestly think they will suffer through a sharpening stone in a raid over the amazing poison talents they are getting? I wouldn't be surprised if the extra SS charges will go STRAIGHT to rogues, with a Elemental shaman getting perhaps 1 extra charge every 2-3 SSs.

There IS a reason Elemental shamans are going to be using LvB in PvE, you know

aqt · 07/24/08, 9:09 PM

I just read the first page and a little on the 2nd in which I noticed the talent weapon specialistion. But,looking now at the official calculators,it seems that they have removed it?I'm sorry but I'm tired as h*ll and haven't been able to go through all the pages so I was wondering if someone could enlighten me if they have removed that wonderful talent?

"Weapon Specialisation:
Axe - Increases critical strike damage bonus by 25%
Mace - Has a 5% chance to increase your melee haste by 10% for 15 sec.
Fist - Attacks from your fist weapons have a 5% chance to reduce the enemies armor by 20% for 6 seconds."

LazyJoe · 07/24/08, 9:15 PM

Going from a 10 sec CD on stormstrike to a 8 sec one is a 25% direct dps increase, so 2,5% more damage if you consider SS as 10% of your overall dps.

2,5% dps alone is far better than what you would gain with 4% melee hit (assuming your special attacks are already capped). A bit lazy to do the exact math, but 4% melee hit should give something close to 1,5% overall dps increase.

So even when considering only direct dps improved stormstrike win by a large margin. Now add all the secondary effects : better flurry uptime, more maelstrom procs, more static shock procs, more weapon enchants/trinkets procs.... everything favors improved stormstrike, even when considering only personnal dps it will be very strong (and the raid utility is totally awesome).

Jakuniku · 07/24/08, 9:24 PM

Originally Posted by aqt

I just read the first page and a little on the 2nd in which I noticed the talent weapon specialistion. But,looking now at the official calculators,it seems that they have removed it?I'm sorry but I'm tired as h*ll and haven't been able to go through all the pages so I was wondering if someone could enlighten me if they have removed that wonderful talent?

"Weapon Specialisation:
Axe - Increases critical strike damage bonus by 25%
Mace - Has a 5% chance to increase your melee haste by 10% for 15 sec.
Fist - Attacks from your fist weapons have a 5% chance to reduce the enemies armor by 20% for 6 seconds."

Yeah that talent is gone and replaced with Maelstrom Weapon.

Gurth999 · 07/24/08, 9:34 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

The RAID benefit is the reason to grab it. The personal benefit, is not so great. We only need 30% crit with a 10 second SS as it is now, 2 seconds off that wont change that requirement much, IMO. Its only a 2% increase to overall PERSONAL damage for 2 talent points. Or you could put one point in DW Spec and get that same 2% increase.

Someone should do the math for POSSIBLY 2 LBs with 20% more damage vs 6% chance for you to proc Static Shock. Remember, this is WotLK, and every rogue will be using and procing TWICE the poisons compared to TBC. Do you honestly think they will suffer through a sharpening stone in a raid over the amazing poison talents they are getting? I wouldn't be surprised if the extra SS charges will go STRAIGHT to rogues, with a Elemental shaman getting perhaps 1 extra charge every 2-3 SSs.

There IS a reason Elemental shamans are going to be using LvB in PvE, you know

Improved Stormstrike will give 30 debuffs per minute to untalented stormstrikes 12. So its potentially 2.5x more LB's benefit with the talent.

While its possible rogues may be eating some of them (I'm not convinced they'll be using deadly brew yet, combat still looks strong) elemental (and Moonkin perhaps) should still see some significant benefit even if their rotation is no longer all nature.