LazyJoe

But that's using actual mechanics.

Things like the new windfury totem, maelstrom weapons, lavaburst/elemental devastation, improved stormstrike, changes to curses/imp scorch.... All of thuis will have a significant impact on our dps, some will improve windfury, some will improve flametongue, but the simulator can't take all of this into account so we just can't tell.

 

Sprout

so with the loss of hit from resto talents, you still have 16%/15% with your gear? Wouldnt you need to regem to get the spell/melee hit high enough, thus losing various stats in the process?

Did you include ED as well? 9% melee crit is a big chuck of damage.

Also Yo's does not take MW/LvB/ED cycle into account. This will change the ratio of melee DPS to spell DPS, which will change the numbers. Less % of white dmg, and WF/SS dmg, greater % of spell dmg, so the loss of WF on the offhand would have slightly less impact on the total DPS of the person in question.


The only way to get an accurate assessment of this in my mind would be to either modify Yo's simulator or do a hands on test in the beta.

 

Rounced

Quote from Koraa

which seems to imply that Flametongue weapon may not end up being a viable weapon imbue for Enhancement. As far as I know Frostbrand works on a PPM mechanic meaning there would be no real advantage to using a fast weapon with it.

 

Pitbuller

Spell resist/hit mechanic has reworked and only 9% needed to cap. Point was show that fast with flame tongue is much more viable with hit/crit merge. There is no way to show any real results now and it's pointless when mechanic change whole time. Maybe sim end showing that 21/50/0 with 1.3/1.3 is the winner and spell damage is more than half of total. But until we have such tool I will trust Yo's. Melee mechanic are staying almoust same and that is what old simulator do best.

If flametongue dosn't have fire damage proc any more then we use as always slow weapons and I don't have to change my sign.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Oteb

I skimmed thru this thread but couldnt find an answer

40agi = 1 crit.
Does it apply both melee crit and spell crit?
and if so
Int also applies crit. But is it spell and melee?

 

dedmonwakeen

My WotLK Enhancement sims show that in the "Slow/Slow"-vs-"Slow/Fast" debate, I can make the numbers do whatever I want....

Pro: increased Flametongue damage
Pro: increased LvB/LB damage due to more frequent MW procs
Pro: increased Lightning Shield damage due to more frequent procs
Con: decreased Stormstrike damage.

I gutted the post because we just don't have enough info yet. I could make the data lean one way or the other quite easily.

There is a basic trade-off between spell damage and physical damage. Depending upon the relevant damage mitigation, target debuffs, party/raid buffs...... I could tilt the results either way.

I think that is a good thing because it means Enh Shaman would have the freedom to choose between either Slow or Fast off-hands depending upon the encounter and group make-up. Of course, if Blizz goes and completely changes the Flametongue weapon, we're back to "slow and steady".

EDIT3: Gutted the post.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

• Toots Hepcat

Obviously, no shaman in his right mind would ever put a fast dagger in his upgrade plans. The Slow/Slow, Slow/Fast discussion is always about opportunity upgrades -- you have a crummy, slow, green axe and an epic dagger drops. Is it worth the upgrade?

Thus, the question was: at what weapon speed does flametongue on the offhand out-dps windfury on the offhand? And at what weapon DPS would that fast offhand be superior to a given slow offhand?

It's a question that was never answered fully, because this is primarily a forum for maximizing dps, not making do with whatever you find lying around. Also because the level of conversion is insane -- a quick sim indicates that to equal the DPS of a 94 wdps, 2.6s weapon with a weapon with a speed of 1.8s, you'd need 150 wdps with Windfury, or 145 wdps with Flametongue. In other words, you'd need a weapon roughly 80 iLvLs higher.

The spell hit/crit conversion, as well as spell damage from Flametongue imbue, may improve this calculus a little bit -- but not that much. A shaman with a fast dagger will still suck, and I don't have a lot of interest in calculating how MUCH they suck.

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.

 

• Nite_Moogle

Agi only applies to melee crit and int only applies to spell crit. Crit rating double-dips. The change that allows agi and int to contribute AP makes it so that crit rating doesn't become unhealthily valuable.

[Carebare]: I'd rather not fit through doorways than be a troll

 

Pitbuller

Can you re-run sim with new Wf-totem(20% haste)?

Scorch change 15%->10% hurts flame tongue a bit but Focus magic behavior with it can also do wonders. Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of fast daggers I just want know sure that WF is still clear winner. This has happen many times before: Patch somehow buff other Imbues but still WF with slow somehow end-up our only choice.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

dedmonwakeen

Bah..... Can't believe I did that..... Thanks for the catch.

I'll re-run and edit my post. DONE.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Pitbuller

Baseline: (slow/slow)
Player=Shaman_Enhancement DPS=4368.7

vs.

Alternate: (slow/fast)
Player=Shaman_Enhancement DPS=4303.6

Alternate being only 1.5% worser is really close call. Can't wait for final patch and real numbers. If shaman gonna see that high dps with 80lvl stats we gonna see big nerf. No other class have seen almoust doupled dps.

Edit: Bad typo. Not 70lvl.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

dedmonwakeen

Please remember that I had to make a wild guess on gear itemization.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rhaegal

Look at the details of the stats he's using. The amount of crit rating is huge (600? as much as AP?), he put in double the strength as agility, didn't include intellect, and the weapons he put in are both 200 DPS one-hand weapons. Even if the sim is modeled accurately, the stats have little-to-no bearing on the reality of what our gear is going to look like, especially in entry-level raids.

To use vanilla WoW to TBC item differentials, Kel'Thuzad loot was ever-so-slightly better than level 70 dungeon blues. If the difference is reasonably consistent, or even increased slightly, we should be looking at one-hand blues at level 80 being ~112-120 DPS, and the first tier of epics at ~135-140 DPS. Not 200. Those 4k DPS values are very bloated.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

dedmonwakeen

Exactly. That's what I tried to explain: I know how to build the car..... I just don't know how to drive it!

Monstrous errors in gearing will not only influence class-to-class comparisons, but even same-class-spec comparison with subtle changes.

If someone doesn't mind taking a risk and making a few guesses on itemization, I'd certainly appreciate it.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rounced

Shouldn't be that hard to guesstimate gear values at level 80.

Blizzard already gave us a Rosetta Stone to help.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...gskirintor.jpg

Level 80 epic ring: 33agi, 51stam, 34crit, 31haste, 100AP

Since that's 5 stat values lets use the "2 ring" to compare. (22 str,stam,int,agi,spi)

Assuming stam and AP both cost half of every other stat and simply assigning all other stat points a value of 1 we get a value of 99 for the "2 ring" and a value of 170.5 for the level 80 epic.

Since crit/haste/hit rating will all scale downward in values as we level up, you should be able to simply use current values for those stats. For all other stats (AP mainly since you can work on the assumption that the percentages will end up similar to current) simply multiply current values by 1.72 and that should give you a good working level for where they will probably end up.

 

Rhaegal

If you're dead set on finding out what we're going to look like stepping into introductory raids in WotLK, one way of doing so might be to build a list of hunter mail in Sunwell, filling in gaps with T6/badge/crafted stuff, and DW theoretical weapons equivalent to [Hand of the Deceiver]. Hunter mail, because that's roughly what we'll be wearing, given the devaluing of strength compared to agility and even intellect. Assume gems to be hit or crit rating. Whether relative quantities of armor pen, haste, hit, crit, etc. on the gear will remain the same is in no way guaranteed, but it should give you a good guess at what we'll be working with starting out, given our only historical basis for comparison.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

◊ Malan

I wouldn't count on Flametongue being anything other than a spell damage buff, I believe that's what the CMs indicated it was moving toward.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Skiace

Since static shock is currently broken, we have no way to know if it has an internal cooldown (and how long it might be) so how can you be sure how much benefit a fast weapon will get out of it?

 

dedmonwakeen

That's too bad.

I used the following profile and Roucie's 1.7x multiplier on gear contributions to relevant stats.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I also increased the weapon dps by a modest 10%.

And....... the portion of total dps provided by Stormstrike dropped enough such that a hyperactive off-hand weapon could provide enough extra spell damage through procs to make up for the reduced SS damage.

Ugghh. I'm going to delete the guts of my post above..... There is too much "it depends".

It really would be a shame if they changed the FT Imbue.... As it is right now, it is close enough that you could actually carry around two different off-hands depending upon what buff/debuffs are present.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rounced

Except there is a new build and static shock appears to be working as intended in it.

 

• Nite_Moogle

It's fixed now, but I would guess there's no ICD as the proc chance is horribly low.

[Carebare]: I'd rather not fit through doorways than be a troll

 

Rhaegal

It's not as low as it sounds. The wording in the talent is that it has a chance to proc "when you do damage", which includes WF procs, SS, Shocks, and LvB. With 2.6 spd weapons flurried and with WF totem, shocks every 5 sec, stormstrike, Lava Burst once every 10 seconds on average, and (for the sake of argument) 2 WF procs every 10 seconds on average, you do damage ~2 times per second. With a 6% chance to proc, that's a proc just under every 10 seconds (again, on average). A 3-second internal cooldown could have a very noticeable impact on the output of Static Shock with that kind of proc rate, assuming it remains such that it can proc from any damage.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

testthewest