Rounced

Here's where I got my numbers from.

Wow Web Stats

Feel free to work it out from there if you want.

 

dedmonwakeen

I was under the impression that it was an automatic proc (provided you hit). If this is not the case, then my sim is seriously flawed.

When I switch to a fast weapon:
Flametongue damage increases
Lightning Shield Orb damage increases

DPS does increase........

I was reluctant to post this because I didn't want to destroy my credibility: Slow/Slow and WF/WF is such a clear winner under TBC mechanics.

EDIT: Removed the bone-head stmt on OH enchant up-time.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Mman

@TK

DKs can specc for tanking or DPS. The difference between them and warriors is that they are not tree dependent to perform those roles, but they still have to choose either dps or tanking talents. You will/can have both tanking and dps DKs in a raid just like you have tanking and DPS warriors.

DKs, given enough time, will be competetive for our spots. Melee spots are limited, and DK can fill one of those spots. Also, one of the biggest reason enhancement shaman are taken to raids is for our buffs. If those buffs are less valuable (because other classes can cover them) then we in turn are less valuable to the raid. It is also important to remember that it doesn't need to be only a dps DK who will replace us. DK tanks can also pick up those buffs and give them to melee.

However, I agree with you. Our spots are not really threatened as of right now (although anything can happen if Blizzard does not balance well). Doesn't mean I like the idea of my buffs becoming un-unique.

 

T.K.

@Mman

It's a simple matter of looking at the closest portrait available to us. Arms and Fury and Feralz. Although their damage is increasing to maintan them in line with Wrath DPS spected numbers, I think you'll agree with me when I say that devs have been more intended into fixing the whole "tanking while arms/fury and the dicotomy at feral specc of getting better at tanking or dpsing" thus getting them closer to what DKs haven shown at their trees.

I really say this because I was, untill very soon, one of the DK-reroll-mass-guy. I do understand they can go DPS specc, as making a pure tank-only class wouldn't be a lot famous among most players. But my point is that Blizz want's DKs to tank. They will design encounters that favor anti-spellcasting tanks. Why would they spend the huge resources to create a new class desgined to fulfill a role that's lacking today and let it slip out of that role?

I really don't pug anymore, but sometimes when I'm on an alt or trying to get my retarded DST (yay for 21 weeks non-stop Gruuling without a single drop) the most dificult thing to get outside my guild are tanks. And I'll go a bit farther and say that's what happens in most servers.

If they can fulfill their tank roles while providing these buffs, I'm really looking forward to it. Much more space for me to drop my totens and don't need to worry if they are close to everyone that needs them or when I can't make a raid our dps don't drop to sh*t.

I was running away from numbers as I don't have the links to our WWS parses now, but normally I range around 2k-2.1k dps in Brutallus. That's with drum rotations, retadin, boomkin in the raid, Arms warr and hunters. Comparing at a TBC level I really find that I'm pulling my weight and if we just keep that much proportion at Wrath, I'll def not regret not rerolling.

 

Mman

I have no doubt that Blizzard wants DKs to tank. They probably will even create numerous raid bosses in wrath that favor them (although I wish they wouldn't). However, what Blizzard wants is rarely what people do. People will spec to DPS as DKs, and with the current philosophy of Blizzard I don't seem them nerfing DK dps to "encourage" them to be tanks.

 

Psykhe

I might be wrong here, but isn't the weapon enchantment proc (mongoose, etc) proc per minute based? Meaning a 3.0 speed weapon has per hit twice the chance to proc en enchant than a 1.5 speed weapon?

 

Tornaz

Yes. And indeed a slower weapon, because of a higher chance to proc per hit, will result in a higher uptime once instant attacks are figured in.

 

• Toots Hepcat

EDIT: At first I didn't see it...but it's the haste.

The 3s cooldown prevents WF proc rates from scaling with haste...so at some point, haste is only affecting your white damage. Flametongue scales with haste.

I bet if you tested with even slower weapons -- 2.8 and 2.9 -- you'd see it to a lesser degree. Also, if you tested with more AP, which would benefit WF but not FT. 3600 seems low since many of us have that (or close to it) now.

A clever idea, poorly analyzed, is cloaked stupidity.

 

dedmonwakeen

Verified. I forgot about the PPM setup...... which my code already supports.

After looking at the output between two runs the up-time on Executioner (which I have on the OH) actually went down with the faster off-hand.

Knowing I was just guessing at gear points I was reluctant to make statements regarding slow-vs-fast and wt-vs-ft

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Wotnot

What are other tester's thoughts on Maelstrom Weapon as a talent used for questing and levelling? After around 3 hours of play so far I found that the stacking buff is dropping off before I can actually make use of it.

I will usually have a mob dead or near dead by the time I'm near a full stack for an instant cast, and if I want to use it I have to keep chain pulling mobs, otherwise it will drop off.

While 15 seconds sounds like a long time on paper it doesn't play out that way for me. Vengeance (a similar stacking talent for Retribution paladins) lasts for 30 seconds before dropping off, which I think is a more appropriate duration for Maelstrom Weapon.

In a raid or instance environment, holding onto a stack longer isn't going to increase our DPS, but with it dropping of in solo play that extra new attack we are given is difficult to bring into play.

 

Stromni

You will make soooo much more use of Maelstrom Weapon once you get lava burst. I use it all the time altho mana heavy , flame shock....4-5 stacks of Maelstrom...BOOM 3k lava burst crit

Also at 77 my crit % plummeted to right around 19-20% unbuffed. From what i can tell Elemental Devestation is going to be a requirement (as well as call of flame). My Lava Burst Crits feed my crit % which in turn makes Maelstrom weapon stack faster, which allows me to crit again with Lava Burst!! I havn't tried out Improved Shields or Static Shock, neither seem like they are worth the points, and of course our doggies still dont work yet.

 

Hothgor

You will probably have 1-2% more crit if you regem your gear properly in light of the change in where we get attack power from. Additionally, you can expect another 2-3% crit increase when they 'fix' our t6 set in preparation for the WotLK release, due to the changed mechanics.

 

Orlgin

Hmm, I seem to have overlooked something when I was building the FT model: Static Shock

I didn't read Static Shock closely. It gives a 6% chance every time you deal damage. Flametongue weapon procs should, in theory, proc Static Shock as well. I also failed to account for the fact that Static Shock can theoretically proc itself.

A 1.4 speed weapon with just flurry and windfury totem can swing every 0.78 seconds. You will hit 87% of the time assuming you take enough hit rating to reach the spell hit cap of 9%. So effectively, you actually average 0.9 seconds per swing.

This means you get a 12% chance to proc Static Shock every 0.9 seconds (one 6% for the melee hit, one 6% for FT proc) per weapon.

Since I was using the dual fast weapons model, this means I theoretically should average a static shock proc every 3.75 seconds just from the white hits and FT procs.

Now add in some more numbers: every 8 seconds, you get 3 possible chances to proc static shock with stormstrike (2 weapon hits and 1 FT proc). On average, every 5 seconds you get a possible chance to proc static shock with Maelstrom Weapon. Every Static Shock proc also adds a 6% chance to fire a second one.

If you are using TLC, every Lightning bolt it fires also gives a chance to proc static shock.

Every shock that you use will also give a static shock opportunity.

That is an awful lot of opportunities.

in 40 seconds:

You will generate 88 white hits and 88 FT procs. You will stormstrike 5 times for a total of 15 possible opportunities. You will generate 8 Maelstrom Weapon chances. You will shock 6 times. You will fire five Lightning Bolts with the TLC.

Total of 210 opportunities. This generates 12.6 Static Shock procs which each get an opportunity to proc.

Average number of procs every 40 seconds is 13.356

Average number of procs every second is 0.3339 or very slightly more than one third.

Using 1/3 since it's easier math, we then need to calculate how much damage Lightning Shield can do. It has a 0.3 coefficient. Let's assume 3000 AP with top rank Lightning Shield doing 380 base damage. You get 124 additional spellpower from the Flametongue Weapons themselves so Lightning Shield should deal: 687 damage

This is 229 DPS. Substantially better than I gave it credit for.

I will be checking for other possible errors I might have made. If I made an error above, please speak up as I want the data to be as accurate as possible.

 

WarTotem

Orlgin, it all depends on whether or not FT is a fxied dmg or a proc. If it is the latter (which I believe it is), it doesn't proc anything.
You can test it with [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. I have made a ticket once and the GM assured me that the trinket not proccing from WF was working as intented as it is a proc and procs don't proc procs. Similar, if Flametongue is a proc, it should not give you any of the caster buff charges.
I'm likely believe Flametongue is a proc due to it's mechanics (it doesn't proc from missed swings), which means no Static Shocks either. I can test it later tonight if you need proof.

 

Stromni

hehe, i went into beta with over 300 badges, trust me, all of my gear there is Agility and Crit... even with that the crit coefficient for CR to Crit % went up something insane like over 2x's as much between 70 and 80. I dont have a single STR gem in my gear, and i still lost 2% to crit every single level....it will happen to you tooo *makes ghost noises ooo00oooo* I am hoping that they update t6 gear before the expansion actually comes out (remember when the patched in all the talents in naxx days before TBC actually came out). Want to make sure i have everything up to snuff before i go off leveling.

As a side note to Orlgrin, damn i am definatly going to have to try out Static Shock and Improved Shields now, just hate losing Elemental Devestation to do it, become almost dependant on that for getting crits.

Oh and the mace from the new Ring of Blood event is awesome. 407 max end dmg with its stats (and the fact its 111 dps) is just sick. Nice to know there is a good upgrade available before 80 epics.

 

waitin4wlk

concidering that fast FT offhand and static shock might become the FotM setup over WF/WF, the contibution of spelldamage to our total dps might well go over 40%.
thus, i would propose to swap maelstrom weapon and mental quickness in the tree, while increasing the mental quickness coefficient from 30% to 60%. this would have two major benefits:
a) it would prevent lategame scaling issues (it was already stated above that the SP to AP ratio is 6 to 10)
b) it would also prevent weird x/28/x reso and ele specs.

if someone from the beta agrees with me then please post it on the suggestion forums or something...

 

Pitbuller

When you look WWS chart it's show how many normal hit yuo did with that skill. You also need sum glancings and crits.
So I re-do math with rounced WWS.

Total attack: 434 + 154 + 60 + 18 + 17 = 684
Total time: 325s
Estimated static shock procs: 41.04
Estimated static shock damage: 24624
Estimated static shock dps: 24624 / 325 = 75.76dps

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Zackbumm

Thats true. There are allready really slow weapons with 2.8 and 2.9 speed in the beta (e.g. http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ish_rew_03.jpg). as somebody allready said before there are also 3-4 green quest rewards with 2.9 speed around lvl 71-72.

Last time I checked my attack power with a def tank and ret pala in my group (we were all lvl 77) in halls of stone i had around ~ 3400 ap. With lvl 80 and new epic gear (most of my actual stuff is still tbc / itemlvl 140+) this number could be more around 4500-5000 ap.

edit: 3400 ap with blessing of might. no other buffs, food or anything else.

It is a raid tool and not very useful for questing/leveling. you should spend your points elsewhere until you are 80 and start raiding again. I´m still wearing a lot of TBC items at the moment (with lvl 77) and my crit chance dropped below 20 percent, which will probably happen to most of us.

 

Mman

I REALLY hope FT is supperior to WF in the offhand. Why? Because I am almost certain that if FT is clearly the winner Blizzard will buff WF. The easiest way to do this probably would be to adjust the internal cooldown, which would be excellent. Blizzard has said that WF is meant to be the enhancement weapon enchant, and I think they have designed all our new talents based around the fact that we favor slow weapons. If buffing WF is neccesary to keep us in the slow/slow niche I am all for it.

But, knowing blizzard, they will probably nerf FT instead.

 

dedmonwakeen

Zack, I'm actually very interested in the base gear composition. (ie: no enchants, no buffs, no talents)

Could you outline your contributions from gear alone for all interesting stats for your lvl 77 toon as well as a possible extrapolation for lvl 80 epics?

I'm also curious if you have just seen a common inflation across all stats or if the relative amount of each appears to be changing for desired Enh Shaman gear.

I fully understand that this would just be your best guess, but it would still be invaluable for the purposes of driving my simulator.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rounced

I'm actually praying they work on Frostbrand and make that a viable offhand imbue for PvP. Increasing the snare to 50% helps but without doing something about the pathetic damage and how that damage barely scales it just isn't usable.

It's PPM mechanics are inherently well suited to slow weapon and using it would make it so we wouldn't need to use Frost Shock to stay in melee range leaving our shock timer freer for interruption or for getting Flame Shock up to get a guaranteed crit with Lava Burst.

What if they changed Elemental Weapons so that Frostbrand also scaled with melee AP? Remove the 15% increased damage aspect and change it to 15% of the Shaman's Attack Power is added as damage. It would still get the 10% of the caster's spell power (so that it would still scale the same as current for elemental and resto shaman) but enhancement would be able to add additional damage based on their Attack Power.

So the Talent would change from

Elemental Weapons (Rank 3)
Instant
Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%.

to

Elemental Weapons (Rank 3)
Instant
Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%, increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon by 15% and the damage caused by your Frostbrand Weapon by 15% of your Attack Power.

 

Zackbumm

I still wear a lot tbc-items, even with lvl 77. you can see my actual tbc-gear here: The World of Warcraft Armory. It was great at lvl 70 but with every level up I have lost tremendous amounts of +hit, +crit and so on (as expected). there is a thread here at elitist jerks that has the exact numbers. I dropped Shard of Contempt with 77 because the expertise rating it gave me was just not worth it anymore.

the reason why i havent changed more pieces of my gear with lvl 77 is because of gems & enchants on my old gear. they are of course still way better then level 77 quest greens. all of my (blue) upgrades are from halls of stone and drak'tharon, e.g.