Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 59

LazyJoe · 08/29/08, 10:26 AM

To get a really complete sim, we need to have a choice between various priority systems :

Simple one : SS > FS > LvB (braindead but probably still quite efficient)

Complex one : SS > FS > LB (if x sec of Elemental Devastation left OR LvB on cooldown for more than x sec) > LvB (otherwise) > ES (if FS dots are ticking, and low probability to use LvB in the next 6 sec)

(there may be a lot more options, for instance should we use LvB or SS when we can do both ?)

Anyway even without considering LB, unless we are spell-hitcapped and the 1% minimum spell miss rate disappear (it seems blizzard is going in this direction, but this is still beta...) we will use earth shock at least after a missed LvB

tukez · 08/29/08, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Buffokill

Depending on how fast MW stacks and the cool down of Lava Burst, will the rotation even include Earth Shock still?

So I implemented the priority list and maelstrom weapon + some other wotlk changes. I tested with the default config + ED + MW(LvB) and priority SS > FS > MW > ES. ES got under 7 dps.

I will do the Static shock and then post the new sim version.

Buffokill · 08/29/08, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

So I implemented the priority list and maelstrom weapon + some other wotlk changes. I tested with the default config + ED + MW(LvB) and priority SS > FS > MW > ES. ES got under 7 dps.

I will do the Static shock and then post the new sim version.

hey, if you can number crunch that static shock is worth speccing into I'd be all for it. Another thing you might want to look at is what could we do with the new talents and mechanics at level 70 for the 3.0 patch

tukez · 08/29/08, 12:55 PM

I have couple of questions about lightning shield. Can it miss? Can it crit and if it can, where does the crit chance come from and does it proc ED?

Also can Static Shock proc from Searing totem, FS dot or Lightning Shield itself?

Draenorm · 08/29/08, 3:01 PM

I've yet to see a lightning shield miss in beta, but that's just from personal experience leveling up on same levelish mobs. No, it can't crit. Static shock won't proc from searing totem, won't proc from another static shock, but will proc from lightning shield itself proccing. As for the flame shock dot, I don't have an answer. I'm sure it'd be fairly easy to figure out though.

tukez · 08/29/08, 4:17 PM

0.4.5 WoW 3.0 mechanics
-Strength gives 1 ap.
-Agility gives 1 ap and 40 agility gives 1% crit.
-Mental Dexterity talent.
-Windfury totem imbue removed.
-Rockbiter imbue removed.
-Added windfury totem haste buff.
-Maelstrom Weapon with Lava Burst or Lightning Bolt.
-Concussion affects LvB and LB.
-Call of Flame affects LvB.
-Shock rotations changed to priority list, check the config file.
-Static Shock talent added.
-Improved Shields talent added.
-Nature's Guidance talent removed.
-Improved Weapon Totems talent removed.
-Ancestral Knowledge talent added.
-Minimum spell miss of 1% removed.
-Haste affects global cooldown with spells up to 1.0s.
-EP value calculations changed: spellcrit and spellhit removed, agility and intelligence added.

Those are the changes I have made. If some change does not read here, I probably haven't made it. Currently Lightning Shield can miss and crit. I will correct these when I know can it miss.

And yes, it is probable that there are some bugs..so keep that in mind. There shouldn't be any major bugs though.

enhsim - Google Code

Sprout · 08/29/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

I have couple of questions about lightning shield. Can it miss? Can it crit and if it can, where does the crit chance come from and does it proc ED?

Also can Static Shock proc from Searing totem, FS dot or Lightning Shield itself?

LS is a spell and should work like any other spell in regards to misses

Im not 100% but Static shock probably wont proc from any DOT (FS) or from any totem. It should proc from the FS initial hit.

Pitbuller · 08/29/08, 6:13 PM

First result from Tukez Wotlk sim:

EP                  value     DPS       test total DPS

ap                  1         0.48      2766.14
crit rating         2.86      1.38      2771.99
hit rating          3.28      1.58      2776.06
expertise rating    0.0       00.00     2743.31
haste rating        1.11      0.53      2763.16
armor ignore        0.20      0.10      2754.97
spellpower          0.68      0.33      2764.02
strength            1.10
agility             2.49      1.20      2780.52
intelligence        1.37      0.66      2764.29

70lvl gear and build with wotlk talents. All strength gems convert to pure ap.

white dps               1027.52          38.02%
wf dps                  647.13           23.95%
ft dps                  0.00             0.00%
ss dps                  205.99           7.62%
searing totem dps       92.01            3.40%
earth shock dps         108.23           4.00%
flame shock dps         132.30           4.90%
frost shock dps         0.00             0.00%
lava burst dps          0.00             0.00%
lightning bolt dps      445.93           16.50%
lightning shield dps    43.36            1.60%
DPS                     2702.46

First dps went over 3000. Then I removed all buffs/debuss with not stack anymore. This is still 800dps better than in live. Best dps rotation looks like to be maelstorm weapon vast > flame shock > storms strike > earth shock > llightning shield re-cast.

Config file with new buff stackking rules and sunwell gear. Mage debuff missing.

#################	//comment marks are # and //
##ENHSIM CONFIG##	//if you write comments on the same line with config line
#################	//leave at least one space between the comment and value

//IMPORTANT: Be careful when inputting your stats. Read is the value rating or percent etc. Read the comments.

simulation_time			5000 	//in hours, you can also input decimals ex. 0.05
simulation_time_combatlog	30	//in minutes
report_count			80 	//how many times the progress is reported during the simulation
threads				2	//number of threads to use, combatlogging always uses 1 thread

###########
#EP RANGES#
###########
ep_ap				45
ep_crit_rating			20
ep_hit_rating			20
ep_expertise			4 //not rating
ep_haste_rating			35
ep_armor_ignore			110
ep_spellpower			60
ep_agility			30
ep_intelligence			30


##########
#SHAMAN###
##########
mh_speed			2.60
oh_speed			2.60
mh_dps				100.3
oh_dps				107.9
mh_crit				31.42
oh_crit				31.42
mh_hit				8.05	//you give hit which shows on your character sheet
oh_hit				8.05
mh_expertise_rating		112	//notice that these are given as rating, 20 rating is about 5 expertise
oh_expertise_rating		112
ap				1866	//when changing this, remember to change the spellpower also(if have mental quickness talent)
haste				6.47
ignore_armor			540
str				277
agi				289
int				208
spellpower			560	//you give the spellpower which shows on your character sheet
spell_crit			26.18
spell_hit			13.00	//you give spell hit which shows on your character sheet

mh_imbue	 		windfury	
oh_imbue	 		windfury
//{ windfury | flametongue | - }

mh_enchant			mongoose
oh_enchant			mongoose
//{ mongoose | executioner | crusader | - }

trinket1			berserkers_call
trinket2			shard_of_contempt
//{ dragonspine_trophy | ashtongue_talisman |
//  madness_of_the_betrayer | hourglass_of_the_unraveller |
//  tsunami_talisman | shard_of_contempt |
//  berserkers_call | bloodlust_brooch |
//  abacus_of_violent_odds | badge_of_tenacity |
//  shadowsong_panther | blackened_naaru_sliver |
//  darkmoon_card_crusade | - }

totem				stonebreakers_totem
//{ stonebreakers_totem | totem_of_the_astral_winds | - }

set_bonus			skyshatter_harness
//{ cyclone_harness | cataclysm_harness |
//  skyshatter_harness | desolation_battlegear | - }

metagem				relentless_earthstorm_diamond
//{ relentless_earthstorm_diamond | thundering_skyfire_diamond | chaotic_skyfire_diamond }


##########
#ROTATION#
##########
average_shocks_per_minute	10.0	//for example, put to 10.0 to have shock cooldown of 6 seconds
maelstrom_weapon		lb	//{ lvb | lb | - } this assumes that you have 5 points in MW, if LvB is on cd, then LB is casted

//set the rotation priority
//ss = stormstrike
//fs = flame shock
//es = earth shock
//frost = frost shock
//mw = maelstrom weapon
//ls = lightning shield
rotation_priority1		mw
rotation_priority2		fs
rotation_priority3		ss
rotation_priority4		es
rotation_priority5		ls


##########
#BOSS#####
##########
miss				9.00
dodge				6.50
glancing			25.00
armor				7700
spell_miss			17.00

nature_resistance		0	//effective resistances
fire_resistance			0
frost_resistance		0


##########
#MISC#####
##########
stormstrike_cooldown		8.00
stormstrike_nature_damage_buff	10.00	//%, put to 20.00 if you are consuming ss buff
wait_ss_with_wf_cd		0.00	//max seconds to wait to SS, if wf cd is still up
use_searing_totem		1	//{ 0 | 1(static calculation, fast) | 2(real model, slow) }


#########
#TALENTS#
#########
flurry				5/5	//ENHANCEMENT
ancestral_knowledge		3/3
elemental_weapons		3/3
mental_quickness		3/3
mental_dexterity		3/3
weapon_mastery			5/5
dual_wield_specialization	3/3
unleashed_rage			5/5
improved_shields		0/3
static_shock			3/3

concussion			5/5	//ELEMENTAL
call_of_flame			0/3
//reverberation			0/5	//unused, you control the shock cd with average_shocks_per_minute
elemental_devastation		3/3
elemental_fury			0/1
elemental_precision		0/3


######### //default value after the buff in comment
#BUFFS### //put to 0 if you dont use that buff
#########
//DRUID
gift_of_the_wild		19	//14 all attributes, improved 19 all attributes
leader_of_the_pack		5.00	//5.00 melee crit %
faeri_fire			0	//610 ignore armor
improved_faeri_fire		3.00	//3.00 melee hit %

//HUNTER
improved_hunters_mark		0	//110 ap
expose_weakness			0	//150-300 ap
trueshot_aura			0	//125 ap
ferocious_inspiration		3	//3.00 all damage %

//MAGE
improved_scorch			0.00	//15.00 fire damage %
winters_chill			10.00	//10.00 frost crit%

//PALADIN
blessing_of_kings		10.00	//10.00 attributes %
blessing_of_might		0	//220 ap, improved 264 ap
improved_seal_of_the_crusader	3	//3.00 melee crit %
improved_sanctity_aura		0	//2.00 all damage %

//PRIEST
misery				0.00	//5.00 spell damage %

//SHAMAN
strength_of_earth		97	//86 str, talented 97 str
grace_of_air			88	//77 agi, talented 88 agi
windfury_totem			20.00	//16.00%, 20.00% talented

//WARLOCK
curse_of_elements		10.00	//10.00 fire and frost damage % and -88 boss resistances, malediction 13.00
curse_of_recklessness		800	//800 ignore armor

//WARRIOR
battle_shout			305	//305 ap
commanding_presence		76	//76 ap
sunder_armor			2600	//2600 ignore armor
blood_frenzy			0	//4.00 physical damage %


#############
#CONSUMABLES#
#############

flask_elixir			elixir_of_major_agility
//{ flask_of_relentless_assault | elixir_of_major_agility | fel_strength_elixir |
//  elixir_of_major_strength | elixir_of_demonslaying | elixir_of_the_mongoose | - }

potion				haste_potion
//{ haste_potion | insane_strength_potion | heroic_potion | - }

food				spice_hot_talbuk
//{ roasted_clefthoof | spice_hot_talbuk | ravager_dog | warp_burger | - }

misc_item			drums_of_battle_1
// { drums_of_battle_1 | drums_of_battle_2 | drums_of_battle_3 | drums_of_battle_4 | - }

Hothgor · 08/29/08, 11:25 PM

Then it seems that it is just as I suspected: Hit rating is our most valuable stat, at least for the moment. Pitbuller, does its value go down significantly once you reach the spell hit cap?

karl_w_w · 08/29/08, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Then it seems that it is just as I suspected: Hit rating is our most valuable stat, at least for the moment. Pitbuller, does its value go down significantly once you reach the spell hit cap?

I'm guessing that that is the value of hit before you hit the special attack cap.

Hothgor · 08/30/08, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by karl_w_w

I'm guessing that that is the value of hit before you hit the special attack cap.

I decided to download the simulator and test it out. It's fairly easy to use, though some of the wording is a bit off and some features I dont entirely understand how to use. So I simply edited the config file to change my stats and equipment, and I used my WotLK BETA stats. For this first test, I have changed my melee and spell hit ratings for these tests. I started off with a 7.75% melee hit and spell hit rating and got the following results:

EP value DPS test total DPS

ap 1 0.51 2876.55
crit rating 3.15 1.60 2885.73
hit rating 4.12 2.10 2895.62
expertise rating -0.89 -0.45 2846.85
haste rating 1.33 0.68 2877.39
armor ignore 0.14 0.07 2861.25
spellpower 0.48 0.24 2868.25
strength 1.10
agility 2.74 1.39 2895.42
intelligence 1.27 0.65 2873.01

As you can see, hit rating is obviously the most important stat when you are below the special hit cap. But how does hit rating hold up when one is OVER the special hit cap? For the next test, I used a 11.75% melee and spell hit rate:

EP value DPS test total DPS

ap 1 0.84 2980.12
crit rating 2.36 1.99 2982.02
hit rating 2.18 1.84 2979.00
expertise rating 0.55 0.47 2949.23
haste rating 1.32 1.11 2981.02
armor ignore 0.25 0.21 2965.56
spellpower 0.59 0.50 2972.19
strength 1.10
agility 1.38 1.16 2977.00
intelligence 1.18 0.99 2972.04

With 11.75% melee and spell hit rating, crit rating seems to become our best stat. Just to see what would I happen, I again uped the hit rating to 16.75% for both melee and spell hit rating. Note that this is 0.75% above the spell hit cap:

EP value DPS test total DPS

ap 1 0.54 3076.73
crit rating 2.68 1.45 3081.35
hit rating 1.66 0.90 3070.36
expertise rating 0.04 0.02 3052.74
haste rating 1.06 0.57 3072.46
armor ignore 0.42 0.23 3077.32
spellpower 0.72 0.39 3075.86
strength 1.10
agility 2.44 1.32 3092.05
intelligence 1.21 0.65 3072.00

Crit rating and agility quickly become our most important stat once we are above the spell hit cap. This makes perfect sense as hit rating is only enhancing our white damage, while crit rating and agility affect all of our damage in one way or another.

Conclusions:

Hit rating is our most important stat until we are special hit capped.
Crit rating AND Hit rating is then our most important stat until we reach the spell hit cap.
Crit rating AND Agility are then our most important stats once we are above the spell hit cap.

Hope that helps!

Atren · 08/30/08, 3:13 AM

Well, hit rating before specials cap been most important even now so with addition of spell hit it is no wonder it is so important. However, expertise is broken in that calculation or you entered value that already caps it?

EDIT: Could you give the stats you used for the program? Meaning AP, crit, hit, expertise, haste, ArP and any other i forgot to mention, but relevant.

Hothgor · 08/30/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Atren

Well, hit rating before specials cap been most important even now so with addition of spell hit it is no wonder it is so important. However, expertise is broken in that calculation or you entered value that already caps it?

EDIT: Could you give the stats you used for the program? Meaning AP, crit, hit, expertise, haste, ArP and any other i forgot to mention, but relevant.

Yeah, my character is Expertise capped currently, so it should show little to no value for me.

Stats used are:

mh_speed 2.60
oh_speed 2.60
mh_dps 103.1
oh_dps 107.9
mh_crit 34.24
oh_crit 34.24
mh_hit 16.75
oh_hit 16.75
mh_expertise_rating 112
oh_expertise_rating 112
ap 1900
haste 6.6
ignore_armor 623
str 399
agi 346
int 245
spellpower 560
spell_crit 22.00
spell_hit 16.75

Obviously the spell hit and MH/OH hits were changed as needed.

Pitbuller · 08/30/08, 3:57 AM

Before we start spamming sim results here can we make baseline config file. We can't know stats at 80lvl but we can use 70lvl with wotlk changes. I think it's pretty safe use all raid buffs/debuffs now you only need 8-9player to get those. But it's important not to use buffs which don't stack. Pretty big list of buffs what we can use.

# Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
# Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
# Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
# Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
# Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
# Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
# Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage
# Ranged Attack Power Buff: Hunter's Mark (only Hunters benefits)
# Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem
# Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
# Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill
# Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements
# Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit,
Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact
# Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
# Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
# Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
# Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
# Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
# Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
# Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
# Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter
# Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence

Another note: Tukez new flurry model give +50dps to same speeded weapons. So you get four hasted attacks isnstead of three. This is what theory say how flurry work but have anyone noticed that this is true ingame. Do weapons get de-sync when swinging brutallus?

Edit: Before we know how mage Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff will work flame tongue look very bad again. Lava burst lost some potential too. How much spell damage flame tongue weapon give?

Edit2: All sim discussion is here.

madrix · 08/30/08, 5:59 AM

Can any of the beta testers confirm that ghost wolf is usable indoors now? Nothing in the notes about it but I saw a shaman today running wherever he liked in ghost wolf, inside of instances where you could not mount and outside of them (in caves and such, no buildings to speak of that I can remember outside the instances). Anyway if someone in the beta can confirm or deny this that would be great.

tukez · 08/30/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

I decided to download the simulator and test it out. It's fairly easy to use, though some of the wording is a bit off and some features I dont entirely understand how to use.

Hey, could you give some feedback about those hard to understand features and bad wordings? Also as Pitbuller said, please put the feedback to this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t31667-e...dps_simulator/

Thanks.

Callaloo · 08/30/08, 10:25 AM

Our new Feint/Cower-like skill, Wind shock, is out.

Shokkina · 08/30/08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Callaloo

Our new Feint/Cower-like skill, Wind shock, is out.

Better if it is a high reduction threat skill, at least double effective than feint/cover or it will be bad because(almost) for sure it shares CD with other shocks.

Oh and i seriously hope that earthshock will be reworked to give more damage/a different effect.

Hothgor · 08/30/08, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Shokkina

Better if it is a high reduction threat skill, at least double effective than feint/cover or it will be bad because(almost) for sure it shares CD with other shocks.

Oh and i seriously hope that earthshock will be reworked to give more damage/a different effect.

It will also be great for pvp. A low mana cost spell interrupt that acts just like our rank one earth shock? Can't really complain IMHO!

Paladia · 08/30/08, 11:40 AM

Instead of making Death Knights a new and unique class, it really feels like they are copying a lot of the flavour from the Shaman class giving it to DRs, in a better or easier form.

Horn of Winter: The Death Knight blows the Horn of Winter, increasing total Strength and Agility of all party or raid members within [RADIUS] yards by 155. Lasts 120 sec.
A better version of Strength of Earth Totem. It doesn't suffer from being static, taking up a totem slot or being one shotted.

Path of Frost: The Death Knight's freezing aura creates ice beneath Ghim:her; feet, allowing Ghim:her; to walk on water. Works while mounted.
A better version of water walk. It costs no reagent, it works AoE and you can mount with it.

Improved Icy Talons
Basically Windfury Totem but only requires 1 talent point, doesn't force you to constantly rebuff nor does it take an air totem spot, cannot be one shotted.

Abomination's Might
Your Blood Strikes and Heart Strikes have a 50% chance and your Obliterates have a 100% chance to increase the attack power by 10% of raid members within 20 yards for 10 sec.
Unleashed rage but higher up in the tree and only requires two talent points.

Coupled with the fact that Death Knights do far more damage atm in beta than enhance and bring a much more unique combat system and utilities, it makes for a very lackluster Shaman.

Shamans really come out on the losing end with the buff changes as well. As most of the buffs in the game are getting merged, the primary buffing class (Shamans), naturally lose the most out of it. It also makes it very poor since Shamans have by far the worst buffing system (stationary, only one buff per totem, 5hp) which used to be balanced with the fact that they had the most powerful buffs, but no more.

Shokkina · 08/30/08, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

It will also be great for pvp. A low mana cost spell interrupt that acts just like our rank one earth shock? Can't really complain IMHO!

Being simply just a replacement for ES rank 1 is not enough IMHO. I hope ES will be improved because of it.
WS also costs 8% base mana. Much more than ES rank 1.

Buffokill · 08/30/08, 12:33 PM

I don't think Enhancement has gotten the full Blizzard treatment yet. I would expect Enhancement to get a lot of changes before too long.

Veritas17 · 08/30/08, 2:05 PM

They're just now starting to put the shaman changes in.

And windshock isn't in unless its a spell drop somewhere because it's not on the trainer currently.

They DO need to revamp us though, this shift of gear importance kinda pisses me off since i'm all set up for strength etc. gear, not agility what so ever and very little hit though apparently I still need spell hit too now? I'm so confused as to what the hell we need for stats now.

If we end up having to pick up 5 different things just to be effective, its going to make playing a shaman even more complicated than it already was.

And that woman or man had the nerve to call our post "nitpicky" >:O

And no you can't use ghost wolf inside. It's still quite outdoors only, maybe that guy was bugged or something.