Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 64

panny · 09/06/08, 2:12 AM

Originally Posted by Koshea

I just believe it's about time all of our shocks were unlinked. With the %mana cost I can't see any spec of shaman blowing through all 3 damage shocks just to get a ton of damage in considering how much mana that would waste, and all have better things to do with their GCD. It might also give Enhancement Shaman a much more active feel in combat than they will have in Wrath with the removal of Twisting.

I made a smilar comment about unlinking our Shocks on ArenaJunkies, the objections raised was the amount of burst we would have, which probably has at least a little legitimacy to it. I really wish they'd reevaluate the damage on our Shocks, it hurts our utility more than it helps.

spanko · 09/06/08, 2:36 AM

Enhancement Tier 7: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...aman_melee.jpg

THANK YOU GOD NO MP5!!! I'd say thats almost perfect itemization, my only complaint is the haste rating. Compared to AGI, AP, Crit, and Hit, haste just seems a terrible stat, especially since WF totem is 20% haste.

Veritas17 · 09/06/08, 3:41 AM

Could someone please tell me if they've noticed any kind of a damage decrease in enhancement - the problem with windfury ranks above 5? I just seem to not be hitting hardly hard at all. Is that mainhand bug I hear about true?

grayrest · 09/06/08, 5:08 AM

Originally Posted by Koshea

Also, has anyone mentioned on the shaman beta forums that tier 6 socket bonus' are still +Strength even after the reitemization?

They won't change socket bonuses due to 'technical limitation'. The ret pallys wanted it after their tier revamp. It seems (from reports of other socket changes) that people who have the bonus activated when the bonus changes will get both the old and the new bonuses. It's somewhere in the ret thread if you want details and should (IIRC) be a week or two after the 2.4.0 release.

Pitbuller · 09/06/08, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by Koshea

...
I personally am going to miss being on the GCD constantly. At least I feel like I'm doing something.

Maybe I'm wrong as I'm not in the beta, but to do the absolute max damage you can in Wrath your still just hitting SS every 8 seconds, LvB every 8 seconds and a shock every 5-6 seconds depending on talents?
...

If you ignore LB you just lost over 200dps or 7%.
LvB isn't anything amazing right now. If you can get all stomrtrike charges LvB is actual dps loss. If ignoring SS charge then best dps rotation is Maelstorm > SS > FS > ES > lighning shield recast. But Maelstorm don't mean only LvB that also mean using Lb if LvB is CD. Simulator show you can get couple more dps if you don't cast LvB if you just aplied flameshock. Another wiev to casting rotation is elemental devastion uptime. You can ignore LvB when ED is up and there is more than two second left. But when its going to fall LvB take priority over Lb and you gain solid dps boost also this is most manaefficient rotation. Our rotation(priority table) isn't simple it can be but then you don't push limits. Go and play with sim and you notice that there is ton of variables what can make rotation work better.

Weev · 09/06/08, 5:31 AM

People are reporting that the feral spirit abilities are useable twice per CD as there are 2 wolves, which would essentially only apply to bash.
Not able to test this yet due to server instability.

Hedin · 09/06/08, 7:07 AM

Feral Spirits just suck with their OMG 25DPS!!! They are summoned 2 per 3min CD at your feet all together. Hit for 100... Useless for PvE
WF is broken - doesn't proc from MH.

◊ Malan · 09/06/08, 7:21 AM

Wow, a beta talent that was NYI for the entire alpha and most of the beta sucks? Really?

Malleus · 09/06/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

Enhancement Tier 7: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...aman_melee.jpg

THANK YOU GOD NO MP5!!! I'd say thats almost perfect itemization, my only complaint is the haste rating. Compared to AGI, AP, Crit, and Hit, haste just seems a terrible stat, especially since WF totem is 20% haste.

Adding everything up, the total AP boost from stats on 5/5 T7 is 1556. That excludes sockets, but includes BOK on the base values.

Pitbuller · 09/06/08, 7:47 AM

Feral spirit must be 5% damage increase(150dps from sim) to out dps elemental fury build. Simulator didn't even count 4 point in Call of Thunder. PvP talent like many other 51pointers.

Paladia · 09/06/08, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

Enhancement Tier 7: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...aman_melee.jpg

THANK YOU GOD NO MP5!!! I'd say thats almost perfect itemization, my only complaint is the haste rating. Compared to AGI, AP, Crit, and Hit, haste just seems a terrible stat, especially since WF totem is 20% haste.

Perfect itemization?

You do know that armor ignore is the best stat Enhance can get per itemization point value and the Shaman set has zero (0) armor ignore. This is not the case for other classes.

With a rough calculation in my head, an item with ONLY armor ignore would have a higher EP value than that those.

Pitbuller · 09/06/08, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by Paladia

Perfect itemization?

You do know that armor ignore is the best stat Enhance can get per itemization point value and the Shaman set has zero (0) armor ignore. This is not the case for other classes.

With a rough calculation in my head, an item with ONLY armor ignore would have a higher EP value than that those.

It's not anymore. Wotlk sim gives armor penetration value around 0.225. Armor penetration is 1/7 of stat cost. Relative value is only 1.575. Agi is around 2.4, crit 2.5 and hit almoust 3 when under spell hit cap. Our spell damage portion is really big.

white dps               1043.38          33.78%
wf dps                  373.89           12.10%
ft dps                  282.32           9.14%
ss dps                  168.78           5.46%
searing totem dps       172.76           5.59%
earth shock dps         164.34           5.32%
flame shock dps         118.97           3.85%
frost shock dps         0.00             0.00%
lava burst dps          138.21           4.47%
lightning bolt dps      526.15           17.03%
lightning shield dps    100.32           3.25%
DPS                     3089.11

Spell damage portion is 9.14%(ft) + 5.59%(searing) + 5.32%(es) + 3.85%(fs) + 4.47%(LvB) + 17.03(Lb) + 3.25(static shock) = 48.92%.

This is without elemental fury which look best dps build with current numbers. Time to forget everything about TBC stat weighting. Haste and armor penetration will take huge hit.

Raut · 09/06/08, 10:54 AM

Don't discuss ArP in vacuums. What you currently have greatly shifts ArP EP. The last ArP you get to reduce the last AC on a fully debuffed mob would be worth a great deal in 2.X.

I don't know the details around ArP in 3.0, but someone told me(XI, I believe) that ArP will work roughly opposite of how it does now. The more AC a boss has, the more it removes. Not sure how gearing for it will work. If the change is correct, the first ArP you equip will probably be worth the most. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Rounced · 09/06/08, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Veritas17

Could someone please tell me if they've noticed any kind of a damage decrease in enhancement - the problem with windfury ranks above 5? I just seem to not be hitting hardly hard at all. Is that mainhand bug I hear about true?

none of the weapon imbues are working. Didn't test Frostbrand or Rockbiter but Flametongue and Windfury are busted with either hand.

Originally Posted by Hedin

Feral Spirits just suck with their OMG 25DPS!!! They are summoned 2 per 3min CD at your feet all together. Hit for 100... Useless for PvE

Not sure their attack speed but mine were hitting for 130 each on the few boars I was able to find between server crashes last night. If the bite is per wolf then they will do an additional 120x2 damage every 5 seconds. With a 1 second attack speed that would be 308dps. They also bring a HoT and a Improved Sprint Cooldown to the shaman. I would bet that if it turns out that an Elemental Fury build would be more dps that they will tune the wolves up in dps very quickly.

Darksong · 09/06/08, 11:50 AM

My expectation for armor penetration is that it will be converted into an armor penetration rating.
Then a certain amount of rating, at a given level, will reduce armor by a given percent.
For example (just using round numbers, I have no idea what they might choose), 50 armor penetration rating will let you ignore 1% of the targets armor at level 80.
The benefit of this is that it's a more predictable return on damage, since each point of armor penetration won't be better than the one before it. It also keeps armor penetration from being more powerful against low-armor targets, as it is now.

Doodle · 09/06/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Koshea

I just believe it's about time all of our shocks were unlinked. With the %mana cost I can't see any spec of shaman blowing through all 3 damage shocks just to get a ton of damage in considering how much mana that would waste, and all have better things to do with their GCD. It might also give Enhancement Shaman a much more active feel in combat

I'd have to agree that most of the time a shaman would not blow all 3 shocks one after another...but if we had the ability to do so that would be a ridiculous amount of burst. I've suggested a couple time that instead of removing the shared cooldown completely just reduce it to say 4 seconds maybe 3 with talents or something. Another more complicated idea would be to remove the shared cooldown like you suggested, but have it so for a certain amount of time (say 6 seconds) after a shock your next shock does x% (say 50%) less damage.

Rounced · 09/06/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Doodle

I'd have to agree that most of the time a shaman would not blow all 3 shocks one after another...but if we had the ability to do so that would be a ridiculous amount of burst. I've suggested a couple time that instead of removing the shared cooldown completely just reduce it to say 4 seconds maybe 3 with talents or something. Another more complicated idea would be to remove the shared cooldown like you suggested, but have it so for a certain amount of time (say 6 seconds) after a shock your next shock does x% (say 50%) less damage.

They just need to look at Wind Shock as an opportunity to fix the whole thing.

Pull the interruption aspect off of Earth Shock (up the base damage up so that there is a reason to use it over Frost Shock, either that or give Frost Shock a coefficient penalty due to the snare) and then leave the cooldown linked between Flame, Earth and Frost Shock.

Wind Shock would then be given a separate 6 second cooldown with a 2 second lockout. It would give us another button to push while raiding for the aggro reduction (and wouldn't cost any dps to hit it on every cooldown) and would give us the ability to snare or DoT up an opponent while still being able to interrupt a spell cast.

Other way would be to give Wind Shock a longer cooldown (maybe 20 seconds but unlinked to the other spells) and keep the interruption on Earth Shock. So then we would be able to interrupt 2 spell casts but with a minimal lockout and with a long cooldown between being able to use Wind Shock for another interruption.

Taowth · 09/06/08, 3:13 PM

First off, on the shocks unlinking, it may not be particularly worth it in PvE to spam the mana inefficient shocks every GCD available because you'll burn yourself outta mana real fast. Which is something I think might even come up as an issue now with Maelstrom. Yes, we're not totem twisting, but Lava Burst costs 800 mana, and LB is around 380ish. Since the sim doesnt specify specific # of hits/misses/casts/etc, only the pure dmg and dps numbers, I cant really guess how much mana they'll take up, but I think that even with the raid wide mana regen implemented, Maelstrom casts will still keep us needing SR each 2 min. We'll see though.
On a PvP standpoint it would be blatently OP though, as was said it gives elemental very potent instant cast burst, as well as enhancement if their mana can handle it.

On a second note, regarding the elemental fury build and sim running in general, my first thoughts were generally "oh come on they havnt even done a pass on us and you're running sims and already designing your gear etc" but then I doubled back on that, and want to applaud this, as long as its being brought up on the forums. This kind of revealing stuff hopefully will instigate changes and buffs, because I doubt blizz intends a 21/50/0 to be the "raid spec", especially since wolves blow ass in terms of their abilities. I for sure dont want to count on a damn pet to supposedly "solve" all my pvp woes.

Orlgin · 09/06/08, 4:01 PM

Unlinking Wind Shock causes a problem because of the secondary effect: it reduces threat. It's off the GCD so you could spam this every six seconds as long as your mana keeps up and greatly decrease the amount of threat you create.

Unlinking Earth Shock is a DPS boost in PVE. The Earth Shock glyph that reduces it's GCD by 1.0 seconds means you could easily jam it into your rotation every six seconds. For PvP, it gives you a really fast burst combo that takes 0.5 sec as you can fire it and then frost shock.

You run to your opponent, Stormstrike which fires Windfury, you follow up with Earth Shock boosted by stormstrike charge, and fire frost shock to keep him close to you 0.5 secs later. If you're lucky, you'll windfury a second time before the GCD on your frost shock even finishs. Not bad for 3.5 seconds.

Unlinking Frost Shock is useful only for fights in PVE where threat isn't an issue or for PvP. It gives you the combo listed above for PvP.

Unlinking Flame Shock means you can use your shock cooldowns for Earth Shock. You can fire Lava Burst and refresh Flame Shock right away as long as it doesn't interfere with your stormstrike rotation. For PvP, you'd be swapping Flame Shock instead of Frost Shock for the above combo.

My suggestion for Earth Shock is, instead of having it breaking spells, it disarms an opponent for two seconds. It would be doing to melee what it used to do to casters.

tukez · 09/06/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Taowth

Since the sim doesnt specify specific # of hits/misses/casts/etc, only the pure dmg and dps numbers, I cant really guess how much mana they'll take up

I assume you are referring to my sim? Actually it does tell # of misses, hits and crits for everything, except flametongue.

Anyway, I'll be doing mana per second calculations for the next version.

Hothgor · 09/06/08, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Unlinking Wind Shock causes a problem because of the secondary effect: it reduces threat. It's off the GCD so you could spam this every six seconds as long as your mana keeps up and greatly decrease the amount of threat you create.

Unlinking Earth Shock is a DPS boost in PVE. The Earth Shock glyph that reduces it's GCD by 1.0 seconds means you could easily jam it into your rotation every six seconds. For PvP, it gives you a really fast burst combo that takes 0.5 sec as you can fire it and then frost shock.

You run to your opponent, Stormstrike which fires Windfury, you follow up with Earth Shock boosted by stormstrike charge, and fire frost shock to keep him close to you 0.5 secs later. If you're lucky, you'll windfury a second time before the GCD on your frost shock even finishs. Not bad for 3.5 seconds.

Unlinking Frost Shock is useful only for fights in PVE where threat isn't an issue or for PvP. It gives you the combo listed above for PvP.

Unlinking Flame Shock means you can use your shock cooldowns for Earth Shock. You can fire Lava Burst and refresh Flame Shock right away as long as it doesn't interfere with your stormstrike rotation. For PvP, you'd be swapping Flame Shock instead of Frost Shock for the above combo.

My suggestion for Earth Shock is, instead of having it breaking spells, it disarms an opponent for two seconds. It would be doing to melee what it used to do to casters.

It would be better if Earth Shock no longer interrupted spells, but simply 'added' two charges onto Stormstrike when used and the debuff is on a target. Guaranteed to see some use there :P

mek · 09/06/08, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Darksong

My expectation for armor penetration is that it will be converted into an armor penetration rating.
Then a certain amount of rating, at a given level, will reduce armor by a given percent.
For example (just using round numbers, I have no idea what they might choose), 50 armor penetration rating will let you ignore 1% of the targets armor at level 80.
The benefit of this is that it's a more predictable return on damage, since each point of armor penetration won't be better than the one before it. It also keeps armor penetration from being more powerful against low-armor targets, as it is now.

This is apparently what is going to happen with it, but a lot of testing needs to be done to determine exactly how it works... I would hope that the % reduction from ArP applies before any flat reductions from other abilities, otherwise it will be very underpowered. We will see how it works out in PvE, but the current ArP EP is definitely meaningless. It will also reverse its role in PvP, as it will provide little benefit against cloth and significant benefit against plate/bear.

Acalia · 09/06/08, 7:23 PM

I know this is a little off the current topic but I just want some confirmation....

with talents is the following the correct ap values for WoTLK for enhance

AGI = 1ap

STR = 1ap

INT = 1ap (via talents)

Or am I reading the new talent wrong....I'm sorry if the question is a bit fresh....but I can't find a definitive answer