Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 65

Rounced · 09/06/08, 11:19 PM

Someone already has been playing with Wind Shock's deaggro and this is what they posted in the Beta forums (it was kinda buried in a thread so easy to miss).

With my level 76 shaman, I created this macro and did testing with windshock threat values:

/script a,b,c,d,e = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player","target");if (e) then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Threat:"..e/100.0); else DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Threat: nil"); end

before_ws -> after_ws == difference.
3138.94 -> 1163.26 == 1975.68
4408.04 -> 2432.36 == 1975.68

both tries gave the same value. I took off my weapon to see if it scales with spellpower. It doesn't:
6179.88 -> 4204.20 == 1975.68

Took off my subtlety cloak and it looks like it is affected by threat modifiers:
4937.00 -> 2921.00 == 2016.00

Tried a level 70 shaman, it appears to scale with level in some way.
5974.00 -> 4414.00 == 1560.00

I also tried different level mobs, it didn't seem to affect the threat change. Another thing to try is to see if threat reduction talents similarly affect Windshock.

Koshea · 09/07/08, 1:14 AM

Originally Posted by Taowth

First off, on the shocks unlinking, it may not be particularly worth it in PvE to spam the mana inefficient shocks every GCD available because you'll burn yourself outta mana real fast. Which is something I think might even come up as an issue now with Maelstrom. Yes, we're not totem twisting, but Lava Burst costs 800 mana, and LB is around 380ish. Since the sim doesnt specify specific # of hits/misses/casts/etc, only the pure dmg and dps numbers, I cant really guess how much mana they'll take up, but I think that even with the raid wide mana regen implemented, Maelstrom casts will still keep us needing SR each 2 min. We'll see though.
On a PvP standpoint it would be blatently OP though, as was said it gives elemental very potent instant cast burst, as well as enhancement if their mana can handle it.

I wasn't suggesting it be just unlinked and left as is, obviously they would have to rework the damage and coefficients, but isn't that the kind of effects you get when you run up on an MS warrior or rogue? Charge, Hamstring, Pummel when you start casting? Why does our PvP ability have to just be attacks and spell interupts?

Although if what people have been saying that MW has been applying stacks of 5 fast enough you can LB quite a bit and still keep ED active with LvB, then it sounds like were still pretty close to being in Constant GCD and we can keep our shocks damage high to keep our dps up. I'm pretty fine with that as well, as long as it actually feels like your doing something all the time rather than watching a couple cooldowns and just can't do anything else because of class design I can live with that.

Killme888 · 09/07/08, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Koshea

I wasn't suggesting it be just unlinked and left as is, obviously they would have to rework the damage and coefficients, but isn't that the kind of effects you get when you run up on an MS warrior or rogue? Charge, Hamstring, Pummel when you start casting? Why does our PvP ability have to just be attacks and spell interupts?
.

Earthbind, grounding totem, etc.?

Hedin · 09/07/08, 6:56 PM

In last build Maelstrom doesn't proc from Windfury Weapon and Stormstrike!

PS. WF 1-5 ranks are bugged and work only on Off Hand, 6-8 ranks doesn't work at all.

Taowth · 09/07/08, 9:05 PM

Originally Posted by Koshea

I wasn't suggesting it be just unlinked and left as is, obviously they would have to rework the damage and coefficients, but isn't that the kind of effects you get when you run up on an MS warrior or rogue? Charge, Hamstring, Pummel when you start casting? Why does our PvP ability have to just be attacks and spell interupts?

Because all 3 of those are status effects only, with no damage. The damage component is major on our shocks. They're also all melee range required to use, ours are ranged. If they're unlinked and then nerfed in damage, whats the point in using them other than status effects? It sure wouldnt be for the damage if its nerfed. And thus reemphasizes that they're linked because they're ranged status effects that can be used while moving.
Would I like to be able to Frost Shock and interrupt without worrying about overlap? Sure, but i recognize the strength of being able to do both at range with a short CD, so I acknowledge the nessecity of the shared CD.
I'd much rather have the shared cd than to have a longer individual CD on each. Short CD spell interruption is part of what defines shamans as a class, and I dont want to lose that because other shamans just cant work around the shared CD.

If you're arguing that "its time to unlink them" because its expansion and we need to "keep up" with the other classes, i agree we need to be kept up, but done through the addition of new spells ourselves, not unbalancing the old stuff.

Veritas17 · 09/08/08, 12:12 AM

Why not just come up with a completely different type of something anyways? They came up with these "hands" to facilitate paladins being able to use their blessings and still use their nice utility spells as well. Well, why not come up with something nice and fresh for us too? I'm seriously feeling negative about the enhancement portion of shaman getting the once over we're supposed to ge,t nevermind the fact this patch was just bad for us. It happened to us in BC and we're getting some more of the same now it feels like.

I'd always thought maybe we could envoke some type of... elemental aspect or aide but then that crosses the line with the other classes (see hunter and druid). Perhaps something that lets us use the elements more towards that of elemental infusions? I'm not nearly as clever as some of the different suggestions i've read here though, but we do need a lot more looked at for our class/spec.

• Toots Hepcat · 09/08/08, 11:41 AM

I am not in the beta. But I have a guildy in the beta with a resto shaman. Yesterday he whispers me, asking if I can teach him how to play Enhance. He says the spec in beta is more fun than his Death Knight, and he wants to do it right.

I think this is the best sign I've seen in a long time.

They will continue to balance our class with other classes. We will not be the best class. There should be no best class, only best gear and best players.

We will have new features. Some of them, like the re-itemization, will be obvious, but that doesn't mean they aren't great ideas. Others, like Wind Shock, are going to be things we've always asked for. Finally, there will be brand new ideas like MW that will keep us busy and bleed our mana.

Arena is going to be a brand new game in the x-pac. Everybody's getting new treats and their interactions in the hands of a skilled player are unpredictable. I will say that when the enhancement spec's been at the top in PvP, it's been due to high controlled burst damage and effective slows and interrupts.

Finally: remember, this is where we discuss mechanics. It's not where we whine about them from a misplaced sense of entitlement. That should be done on the public WoW forums, where whining's more likely to incur a soothing blue response.

Adrammelech · 09/08/08, 12:33 PM

Couple ruminations and things I'd like to see happen to Enhancement PvP looking over the talents.

I'd like to see a stronger tier 1 option in terms of talents. None of the 3 are particularly enticing and offer very little synergy outside of perhaps enhancing totems in a 5's team.

It'd be nice to see some slimming down of talents from tier 2 to tier 8. I think there's roughly 30 talents that are without question mandatory, and then there's ones that I personally would take simply because I feel they help with some extreme pressure other classes can put on us (toughness/anticipation for example when it comes to rogues)

I think considering how much of a pvp tank class enhancement can tend to be, it'd be very helpful if shamanistic rage (like barkskin) was able to be activated while crowd controlled.

Maelstrom Weapon strikes me as a unwieldy talent for pvp, I think if the duration was 5 seconds longer that'd be a big help. Or, when the talent also activated off of being crit, it at least offered some consequence to the tendency of other melee classes to simply train and sit on the shaman.

A revaluation of WF imbue mechanics as Malan has suggested, to perhaps make Frostbrand offhand a viable option.

I'd personally like to see the default Stormstrike cooldown reduced to 9 seconds, so that talented and with the 4 set bonus it's at 6 seconds. More akin to the cooldown of MS/Crusader strike. Though I suppose that would potentially upset pve rotations.

And finally, I think reverberation should be dropped down to a tier 1 talent in elemental. It's also would make resto's have a more difficult choice between 20 in enhance for toughness versus reduced CD on shocks.

drats · 09/08/08, 1:18 PM

Has anyone been able to try lvl 80 raiding/heroics yet?

It's starting to look like there will be 2 enhance spec's for raiding, one that primarily buffs and avoids personal dps talents, and one that focuses on personal dps but doesn't offer as many group buffs. I haven't been keeping track of other classes gaining buffs that overlap ours, but does it seem like this is an accurate assessment?

Edit: Specifically, this spec for personal dps:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353110231050

And this spec for raid buffing:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353115231050

Ofcourse, this all depends on how well spirit wolves is tuned for pve. It seems to be more of a pvp talent from what i've seen sofar.

Veritas17 · 09/08/08, 1:55 PM

Would taking on the aspect of an element for combat purposes be too far out of line for shaman? Enhancement anyways. Yes, we have totems but they could always go a step further. As it seems they've wanted to make the shaman class out to being more intune with the forces of nature, I believe we could take on those aspects in a truer since.

Spirit wolves is just a badly implemented band-aid. Five abilities tied to an extremely short cool down with sub par damage (nyi or not I still can't see their damage rivaling any other classes pet damage) with redundant abilities stacked on to boot. If one wanted to they could just get the boots from honor to gain the 60% movement speed and have spectral transformation to switch out and run themselves. Or something else more viable, regardless the 51 point enhancement talent is horrible.

As for pve and being enhancement, how can your friend say that it feels good with not having hardly any working enhancement abilities at the moment? If you want to use frostbrand or fire weapon imbues be my guest but that's not what i've got my totem slot/gear set up to be doing damage wise. The mechanics for shaman enhance wise anyways are askance.

Sprout · 09/08/08, 2:33 PM

The problem with spirit wolves is they cant make the damage relavent to PVE, as that would make it OP in PVP. I actually like SW for PVP, at least in theory.

If SW stays a primarily PVP tool, I think 21/50/0 will be our primary pure dps spec, especially if spell dmg ends up really being 40+5 of our dmg.

One issue with that though is that I cant find a good 21/50/0 spec I really like....

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13352115201050

This one is ok, you can make up the hit with gear, but 2% melee hit and 2% melee haste seems to be fairly significant.

Skiace · 09/08/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sprout

The problem with spirit wolves is they cant make the damage relavent to PVE, as that would make it OP in PVP. I actually like SW for PVP, at least in theory.

If SW stays a primarily PVP tool, I think 21/50/0 will be our primary pure dps spec, especially if spell dmg ends up really being 40+5 of our dmg.

One issue with that though is that I cant find a good 21/50/0 spec I really like....

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13352115201050

This one is ok, you can make up the hit with gear, but 2% melee hit and 2% melee haste seems to be fairly significant.

Originally Posted by drats

Has anyone been able to try lvl 80 raiding/heroics yet?

It's starting to look like there will be 2 enhance spec's for raiding, one that primarily buffs and avoids personal dps talents, and one that focuses on personal dps but doesn't offer as many group buffs. I haven't been keeping track of other classes gaining buffs that overlap ours, but does it seem like this is an accurate assessment?

Edit: Specifically, this spec for personal dps:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353110231050

And this spec for raid buffing:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353115231050

Ofcourse, this all depends on how well spirit wolves is tuned for pve. It seems to be more of a pvp talent from what i've seen sofar.

I'd suggest you both take a look at this thread, where spec discussion is happening with the sim. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t31667-e...dps_simulator/

Siccore · 09/09/08, 6:42 AM

i think for raid dps, this would be a good specc:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353115201051

static shock is a no go, because this will lower the ele-schaman dps

Ronarden · 09/09/08, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Siccore

i think for raid dps, this would be a good specc:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13353115201051

static shock is a no go, because this will lower the ele-schaman dps

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you are posting this talents.

The Spirit Wolfes don't do any significant damage in the current beta build (may come later).

But bigger problem with this spec is the lack of elemental focus.

Do you have any math for Static Shock vs. Reverberation to undermine your opinion?

Edit:

Originally Posted by Skiace

I'd suggest you take a look at this thread, where spec discussion is happening with the sim. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t31667-e...dps_simulator/

Psychodays · 09/09/08, 9:48 AM

So yeah the new "Heroic Training Dummy" is up on test the Level ?? (Boss). It was pretty interesting going throught the rotation. Once ED was up it was almost always a combo of SS flameshock and lava burst. I was surprised that Lava Burst was actually doing more damage than SS. In a 168 second fight I got off 21 stormstrikes(2pt improved) and 13 lava bursts, Lava burst did 15% and SS 11.8% of total damage.

Pitbuller · 09/09/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Psychodays

So yeah the new "Heroic Training Dummy" is up on test the Level ?? (Boss). It was pretty interesting going throught the rotation. Once ED was up it was almost always a combo of SS flameshock and lava burst. I was surprised that Lava Burst was actually doing more damage than SS. In a 168 second fight I got off 21 stormstrikes(2pt improved) and 13 lava bursts, Lava burst did 15% and SS 11.8% of total damage.

Your rotation look oversimplified and low dps one.

I have tested lot's of different rotation with sim and there was couple very good spec + rotation. If you want easy rotation but still competive dps try this build and make couple macro.

Macro1:

/castsequence reset=combat/6.5 Lava Burst, Lightning Bolt

Macro2:

/castsequence reset=combat/6.5 Stormstrike, Lightning Shield

Macro3:

/castsequence reset=combat/4.5 Flame Shock, Earth Shock

Playstyle is easy.
Press macro1 if you got five stack maelstorm weapon.
Press macro2 if Stormstrike CD is up.
Press macro3 if shock CD is up.
Press macro2 if nothing else to do.

When you master this you can trow extra Lightning Bolts if you just aplied flame shock or you can skip Earth Shock if you just consumed flame shock dot.

Macros don't ever do 100% dps but our rotation is complex in Wotlk and these simple macros give you time to learn and you still do almoust best possible dps.

Zackbumm · 09/09/08, 10:59 AM

bad post, deleted

Zackbumm · 09/09/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Psychodays

So yeah the new "Heroic Training Dummy" is up on test the Level ?? (Boss). It was pretty interesting going throught the rotation. Once ED was up it was almost always a combo of SS flameshock and lava burst. I was surprised that Lava Burst was actually doing more damage than SS. In a 168 second fight I got off 21 stormstrikes(2pt improved) and 13 lava bursts, Lava burst did 15% and SS 11.8% of total damage.

Which is exactly what I have found out when Lavaburst went live some weeks ago. Start with Flameshock, SS and immediatly use lavaburst to start ED even if you just have 2 or 3 mw stacks. It doesnt matter if you loose one or two whites or a wf hit in the beginning - as soon as ED was up I was able to keep it up 90% of the time. In the end lavaburst did 12% and SS 8 of my total dmg with more then 20 minutes of testing time.

• Toots Hepcat · 09/09/08, 11:20 AM

PB, do you really do more than an average of one MW per 8s?

If not, a possibly higher DPS, guaranteed ED rotation would be:

Button 1:
/castsequence reset=combat/11s Flame Shock, Lava Burst

Button 2:
/castsequence reset=combat/6.5 Stormstrike, Lightning Shield

Button 3:
Earth Shock

Press 1 to start
Press 2 when SS is off CD
Press 1 again if MW stacks to 5
Press 3 if shock CD is up, and Button 1 is still showing LvB
Press 2 to refresh LS

Rounced · 09/09/08, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

I have tested lot's of different rotation with sim and there was couple very good spec + rotation. If you want easy rotation but still competive dps try this build

Why wouldn't you just go 4 points into Reverberation and gain 2% more for your Lava Burst and 5% more for your Searing Totem damage by capping out Call of Flame?

I'm starting to think that everyone arguing about the value of +hit might be completely right. I don't think we will ever want to cap white hits but I think that trying to get to the spell hit cap will be the most efficient use of gems/enchants for raiding since you lose so much dps when you "miss" a Lava Burst and ED falls off.

This is especially true since you get far more from that rating then from anything else.

It's 368 hit rating, with a Shadowpriest or Boomkin in the raid, to get to the spell hit cap at level 80. That level will guarantee 100% ED uptime which is an additional 9% melee crit. Spending that budget, 368, on crit rating would only give you 8% crit at level 80.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

PB, do you really do more than an average of one MW per 8s?

Depends on fast offhand with Flametongue or Slow offhand with Windfury. With a Fast offhand there were definitely times when I was getting MW stacked to 5 before Lava Burst came off cooldown. It really depended on my spell miss rate, missing a single Lava Burst crit really just sank my MW generation rate and my dps really suffered.

I had one 2 minute set where I didn't miss a single Lava Burst and I output 1700 dps with the bugged Windfury using Slow Mainhand and Fast Offhand with only Flametongue on the offhand (nothing on the mainhand) when my normal dps was around 1100 with that setup.

Even Fast/Fast both with Flametongue was able to hit 1400 for a set where I got lucky with the Lava Burst hits. But when I got the 14% spell miss rate (capped specials but not much more) I should get based on my current ratings my dps would drop to around 950.

Pitbuller · 09/09/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Why wouldn't you just go 4 points into Reverberation and gain 2% more for your Lava Burst and 5% more for your Searing Totem damage by capping out Call of Flame?

Sim showed that Reverberation is better per point than Call of flame. Only about 10dps but still better.

Toots:
Sim also showed that even with only 5% melee and spell crit from gear not using Lb was 40dps loss. Raid buff change really pushed Lb up and LvB down.