Paladia

This should be easy to test for anyone in the beta.

How does Thunderstorm knockback function if a target is above or below you? From the videos I've seen the knockback seems to throw you in the reverse direction of the epicentre but does that also take into consideration the height? For example if someone is above you, will he be thrown almost straight up or at least in a more upwards curve?

 

Ja7us

All the knockbacks in the game have a horizontal and vertical component, and they always throw you in exactly that direction, regardless of the angle between the caster and target. Thunderstorm appears to be no different in this regard.

 

◊ Binkenstein

Current list of Things Shaman from WotLK and how they affect a raid, ~1 week old

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

Phlis

Noobshock, I believe, had a decent idea to fix the problem on the beta boards. Moving Mental Quickness lower in the tree to the same teir as Flurry, the build goes from 43/28/0 to 53/18/0(Convection is a 3pt talent in the new beta build, and picture toughness as Mental Quickness). Like moving Elemental Devastation lower, this gives synergy between the two trees very nicely and lets Elementals spec deep into their own tree without giving up the huge boost that MQ will give, doesn't really change the enhancement build at all, and doesn't effect any resto builds. It's a bandaid to be sure, if the coefficient change is intended, but at least it lets us get Thunderstorm and Paralysis.

 

tufy

I agree with that suggestion, imo. Anyway, tried out MD+MQ build without LO on PTR right now. Even without raid buffs, the build will be devastating damage-wise. Here's a few figues:

My base build (52/X/X) has 1072 +dmg. Without any raid buffs or totems, this went up to 1336 with MD+MQ, doing around 500 higher LB crits and 1000 higher Healing Wave crits (the two spells I've tested). The damage of MD+MQ is unquestionable.

However (yup, there's always a however :p), I find 52/X/X better for soloing because of the awesomeness that is Thunderstorm and (I can't believe I'm saying this) due to Storm, Earth and Fire's Frost Shock Freeze proc. Once Paralyze works as it should, the build will definitely be better. Another thing I learnt was that getting MD with this build doesn't pay off. The attack power rises and the gain through it is simply not worth it, so I ended up moving more points into Elemental. Just a bit of a personal opinion.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Ocyr

Just to clarify, you are talking about a 52/x/0 build when you say getting MD? (as in, going to MD but not MQ with your leftover 52/x/0 build?)

edit: thanks for the clarification

At 80, for larger-scale PvP (5v5 or BGs/World), have you thought about either

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

or

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator


I could see Thunder being really useful for 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3, but I can see some real benefit to the hybrid builds in larger group PvP settings.

 

tufy

Yes, that's what I ment. I was originally thinking of a pvp build with Toughness, Imp. Ghost Wolf and MD as a backup melee dps, but it turns out that the thing really doesn't pay off,so it's either going deeper into Elemental, deeper into Enhancement (for MD+MQ) putting those points elsewhere, such as 2 sec off Grounding Totem.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Apaine

Something will need to be done about Mental Quickness.

I just don't see blizzard letting elemental shamans throw away all the new shiny talents that were designed for them, just to get an enhancement talent that was meant to make enhancement shocks scale with AP gear.

Fact that this AP scaling being better than upper ele talents is just a testament of it's brokenness.

If anything MQ should be put higher up to prevent misuse :P

Anyone else notice how improved fire nova totem changed from 2 sec stun to 4 second snare???

Looks like we're back to "no stuns for shamans" philosophy again.

 

◊ Binkenstein

Doing some initial calculations, and assuming an "ideal" raid debuffs, the break even point for FS/LBx3/LvB vs LBx5 is ~2100 spellpower (LvB below, LB above). So the real question is whether there will be enough spellpower to hit that point, possible set bonuses, and how haste will interact with said rotations.

I guess the big question is whether SE&F will stay there or not.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

Ocyr

Why would you, and anyone, assume MD+MQ is "OP and a misuse of Shaman talents"?

Outside of MQ, Elemental Shaman have no PvE damage enhancing talents or abilities.

And MQ does not scale with gear. It "scales" with raid buffs, which are static -- the scaling is only up until you get them all, and then there is no more "scale" left.

The Burning Crusade

Balance Druids: +20% spell damage bonus / 30% of Intellect converted to spell damage (36%, accounting for both talents combined)

Arcane Mages: +45% damage (AM) / 25% of Intellect converted to spell damage

Destruction Warlocks: +45% damage all Shadow spells / +20% bonus spell damage

Elemental Shaman: nothing comparable

All MD+MQ does, is finally give Elemental Shaman in WotLK at level 80, what every other caster got in tBC at level 70. There is nothing overpowered about it.

edit: to binkenstein above, since LaB is on a 8s CD, your rotation doesn't work: FlS (1.5s) / LBx3 (6.0s) / LaB 2.0s = can not perform the rotation after the first set without a 0.5s gap in casting .... either a CL or LB has to be added in (see my calculations several pages ago) or ~150 or more Haste/equivalent must be assumed (though with the change to WoA totem this might not be much of a gearing bar to clear).

edit2: bink, check, that's what i was saying about the haste -- your rotation will require some amount of haste to work ... with WoA 10% haste totem it might be a very small amount / none. Interestingly more than a small amount of haste puts Shaman right back in the same problem, requiring another spell. That's why I settled on FlS>LBx3>CL>LaB as the penultimate rotation several pages back: it is the most robust rotation, in that it works around multiple CD timers as well at 0 haste as it does at 400 haste, and it comes in just under the 12 second DoT duration even assuming travel time. About the only argument I could thing of to change that, would be to place CL after FlS in order to ensure mana efficiency in the rotation, as CL is something of a mana hoover in WotLK (FlS>CL>LBx3>LaB>***EF proc***,FlS>CL....

 

Rhaegal

Lightning Overload scales pretty nicely. Also, MD+MQ IS a 30% intellect to spell damage conversion.

[e] Nevermind, I just realized that what you were saying is that the int to spell damage conversion of MD+MQ is giving us what other classes already had. Reading comprehension...

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

◊ Binkenstein

There's a gap of 0.5 seconds before casting LvB, because otherwise the LvB cast finishes at 11.5 seconds and I'm not sure if it will actually hit the target while flameshock is still ticking. I did also mention that was just looking at zero haste.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

HarrySpanner

This seems like a more potent discussion than the ones over at mmo-champion, so I'm just going to copy and paste my thoughts from there.

First of all, the spec: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

I was thinking that perhaps in WotLK elemental shamans will be able to disregard resto talents in pvp. By taking more offensive and utility talents, elemental shamans might not need to heal as much. When they did have to heal, talents like elemental oath and ancestral knowledge would slightly help with the high mana cost.

Elemental shamans would rely spells and talents like hex, thunderstorm, improved fire nova totem, improved ghost wolf, astral shift, elemental shields, eots, elemental warding, paralysis, and storm, earth, and fire (frost shock buff) to avoid taking as much damage, and therefore curtail the need for healing. With less time needed for healing, shamans could focus more on dealing damage, putting their enemies on the defensive and further lessening the need to heal.

This would be a much more in your face combat style for elemental shamans, who in the past have always spent half their time healing (at least in 1v1 situations). One drawback to this idea is that elemental shamans could not take tidal mastery and would crit less with lightning and healing.

 

Graze

It's been confirmed by a blue that the LB coefficient removal was intended because there's more nature damage multipliers now.

WoW Forums -> Lightning bolt coefficient nerf?
This still leaves the question, what's the intended mechanics for Paralysis? a 1.1 multiplier or an additional 10% scaling. Further testing must be done in the new build.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Anksunamun

elemental shields has benn nerfed from -6% chance to be critted to -6% physical damage -.- anyway I agrre that we will have more survability than now with hex ,thunderstorm, paralysis and astral shift

Imo the real question is: what is the better spec in PvE? the one with paralysis or the one with MD+MQ?

 

Zanadarn

I wonder about our cycles in Wotlk...

A FS->CL->LB->LB->LB->LaB is 11 seconds, 11.5 if you don't use a CL and use a LB instead.

Ok. That works. But so far, from what I can tell haste is indeed becoming a much more integral part of both gear and class abilities.

So, let's assume you don't have any haste on your gear, and only your WoA:

FS->CL->LB->LB->LB->LaB becomes 9.9, 10.35 if you don't use CL and use LB instead.

Because of the spells flight time between you and the target, I don't think we'll manage to squeeze in another LB before the LaB like this.

However, let's assume 10% haste from gear. I suspect that will be pretty basic for most elemental kits from now on (just look at Sunwell).

Haste rating stacks additively, Haste stacks multiplicatively, which means 19% haste.

FS->CL->LB->LB->LB->LaB - 8.91, 9.315 with LB instead of CL.

While just assuming 10% haste at all times might seem like a logical leap, from what I've seen in Wotlk gear so far, everything has haste. So with a pretty basic setup, a totem and something you'll likely have from your kit your cycle has 3.09 seconds spare with the CL and 2.185 without.

In the second case it's arguable if you can squeeze anything else in, but in the first you most certainly will be able to.

What really complicates matters is if you have a moonkin. Improved Moonkin has a 30 second cooldown, and once it's up you get 8 seconds of 20% haste the next time you crit.

With the 10% 'base' and the totem that equals 35.2% haste. (1.3 second cast LB anyone? Casting CL like this is actually a bad idea, since it runs you into the GCD, the cast becomes 0.972 seconds)

So when this happens, you'll have to alter your cycle to one without CL:

FS->LB->LB->LB->LB->LaB leaves you with more than 4.5 seconds spare on the entire rotation. That's another two LBs.

Of course, we've no control when it activates, so if it catches you mid-cycle things will become a bit confusing.

Add to this any procs, activated effects and so forth, plus a higher than 10% 'base' of haste, and things really get interesting.

Bottom line is, we're going to have to be a lot more proactive about our cycles and adapt them to haste effects mid combat.

 

Lucitron

I believe most calculations in this thread highlight that you don't lose that much in a raid-perspective if you don't go full out in the Elemental tree. Or in other words, the two new shiny talents Thunderstorm and Storm, Earth & Fire are not designed with PvE raids in mind.

Now, I wonder however if not Mental Quickness might be nerfed in the end. Not due to that Elemental Shamans grab it, but perhaps due to that Enhancement Shamans will now profit far more from this talent. With Maelstrom Weapon and Static Shock, Enhancement Shamans should toss far more spells at their opponents than before, and since both Lightning Shield and Earth Shock deals nature damage, they will both profit from other class talents that boost nature damage.

In a galaxy far, far away, senator Palpatine just learned Lightning Bolt rank 12.

 

kuzma

my thoughts on 43 28 mq md
with elem oath giving reduced "skill" cost and improved crit dmg
oddly enough a ele shaman will find them self in a melee group

enh sham
ele sham
warrior
feral
rogue
just as an example

since u gotta dump 28 pts into enh tree for md mq you can pick up improved wf totem and improved str/agi totems there for saving the enh sham pts to just spend into 10% int for his first 5 pts and saves him 2 pts from improving the wf totem

with warriors shouts and unleashed rage benefiting your new hunger for more ap to convert into spell dmg and with elemental oath providing reduced rage mana and energy costs to your party it seems like a win win situation

boomkin aura with the whole 20% haste sounds nice but thats once every 30 seconds with a 8 second buff, vs a constant ap boost to the elem shaman from being with the melee group

just my initial thoughts on the build

 

Phlis

LvB has a travel time, as was seen in this video, at about 1min into the video, it's cast, travels, and then hits. If we assume the same speed as lightning bolt then it takes 1.5 seconds to travel 30yds(or at least thats what I've always believed, as if I'm at 30yds and cast a LB then a CL they hit at about the same time), then it will take 1second for LvB to travel 20yds if we're in Flame Shock range. So, LvB's cast needs to finish 11 seconds into the rotation. So, FS(0), CL(1.5), LB(3), LB(5), LB(7), LvB(9) works out well. As you get more haste you either need to clip Flame Shocks DoT or try to fit more LBs in there.

 

Kaideq

Or you could just put another rogue/melee dps class in there that benefits more from the group buffs, then again with the current mana issues without a real solution, yet, I think it's safe to say elemental shamans will be grouped with mana battery type people still.

Adding in the potion de-buff in this build I honestly wonder how the hell they are going to fix this, as I really don't see how.

Starchild Spacegoat Shaman in Beta

 

princeinexile

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Inscription Glyph system will dramatically change this debate. Given the power of the glyphs they've presented so far (primarily dealing with Druid talents), I'll speculate that there may be a Glyph or two that make SEF a viable PVE talent for Elemental shamans. Right now, my big objection to taking it at all is I don't want to be stuck at a 20 yard range in a raid situation (not to mention the math that shows MD/MQ to currently be better). However, if there were a glyph that extended Flame Shock's range to 36 yards, that would be a possibility that made it more viable. Or imagine if, say, there were two glyphs; one that enabled Lightning Bolt to extend the duration of Flame Shock's DoT (the way the Starfire glyph extends the Moonfire DoT for Balance druids), and one that allowed Lava Burst to crit as long as your Flame Shock was up on the target, but didn't consume it. Even without extended range, it's conceivable in many encounters that you could dart forward to throw a shock and then be able to stay at max range for the rest of the encounter.

Of course, this is all speculation until they start pushing glyphs intended for shamans into the Beta, but after a close look at the ones they've so far included, I see glyphs' potential to completely revamp the way we think about and use our spells and spell rotations.

 

kuzma

@ kaideq

sure another melee would benefit from the group

but having the elem in the melee gives the other 4 ppl a 6% crit dmg bonus and a 6% rage energy mana savings