Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 33

ofancow · 08/29/08, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I am seriously laughing at anyone that is still trying to justify using a MD/MQ build at 80. Even going on spellpower alone, you'll need 1 AP for every 1.2 Spellpower you have to break even, and that isn't even considering missing extra crit chance, crit damage, mana back, etc.

When you can link us all the spell power versions of:

Blessing of Might
Battle Shout
Strength of Earth
Blessing of Kings
Arcane Intelligence
Mark of the Wild
Unleashed Rage
True Shot Aura
any other raid buffs to attack power and intelligence that I am forgetting
base character 300+ attack power and geared 700+ intelligence

then your ridicule might hold some kind of water. You see, no one has ever been talking about stacking attack power. What they are talking about is making use of currently useless buffs that are readily available in every raid, and converting those useless buffs into raw spell power. And what do Shaman give up for 600-900 spell power to every spell? A measly 5% spell crit to Lightning Bolts. Nothing else. In fact, they GAIN mana regeneration through improved shields.

Yes, there is a crossover point where a 51/0/20 build becomes a better PvE dps build, but that crossover point is deep into level 80 epic gearing. You are being stubborn and foolish not to acknowledge what has been very clearly proven over several dozen pages of math. Until that gearing crossover is reached, a Shaman spec'ing the way you want will be underperforming. So good Elemental Shaman players will take advantage of both builds, the first to excel at their DPS role in early raiding, and the latter to excel in raiding once X gear level has been achieved.

ChaguraED · 08/29/08, 11:14 PM

New Build is in. Some fun little changes to Totem of Wrath:

Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the damage done by spells and effects by 100% for all party and raid members, and increases the critical strike chance of spells and effects by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards. Lasts 2 min.
5% of base mana, Instant cast

I wonder if that is a typo, or it's genuinely 100% increase.

Cryonic · 08/29/08, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by ChaguraED

New Build is in. Some fun little changes to Totem of Wrath:

Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the damage done by spells and effects by 100% for all party and raid members, and increases the critical strike chance of spells and effects by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards. Lasts 2 min.
5% of base mana, Instant cast

I wonder if that is a typo, or it's genuinely 100% increase.

I went to confirm this. It's 100, not 100%. Meaning it's now Wrath of Air and Heart of the Crusader. So.... it won't be worth speccing into if you have it's replacements. Opening up the possibility of speccing into Enhancing Totems for imp. Flametongue?

Wildwary · 08/29/08, 11:59 PM

Now, this latest change really got me... a 100 spelldamage? Thats a freaking joke. I sure hope there will be more ranks, but evenso, it seems unfair as the other spelldamage buffs seem to scale? Making us not scale is a sure way to not get us into high end raids, and in turn create a new standard for raids. Great.

EDIT: Looked it up, seems like its 160 at level 80, which is to little.

◊ Embar · 08/30/08, 1:02 AM

ToW is currently broken anyway. It is adding the 100/160 to healing instead of spellpower.

anyakaschala · 08/30/08, 1:15 AM

what they should do is leave the % in and take out a zero.

Thus totem of wrath increased spell power by 10% and a talented increase to 16%. Then it will be useful.

If it is only 100, then it's effect use will be a complete joke. Let's face it, people will probably be pushing 2.5k spell power in LK, an extra 100 would we a slap in the face.

And if indeed that is what it is and turns out to be, I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of all elementals either quit or rerollm because it would be a complete insult to our spec.

tufy · 08/30/08, 4:01 AM

Updated original post with ToW, Heroism, Elemental Oath changes and added the new spell, Wind Shock.

Cryonic · 08/30/08, 5:41 AM

So.. Wind Shock. Another Feint/Fade/Cower spell no one will use. Sure it interupts spells, but why not still use rank 1 Earth Shock if you need an interrupt for cheap/low threat?

Graze · 08/30/08, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cryonic

So.. Wind Shock. Another Feint/Fade/Cower spell no one will use. Sure it interupts spells, but why not still use rank 1 Earth Shock if you need an interrupt for cheap/low threat?

Because Rank 1 ES costs about 18% of base mana, ~1200 @ 80 I guess. That's why.

Just an initial observation from the new build, before I critted for about 4k, now it's 4.4k - perhaps S,E&F is working now - I will try to check this out more.

Flametongue is also castable on my Reign of Misery, granting 73 spelldamage (not healing)

Pitbuller · 08/30/08, 8:43 AM

Elemental shaman can now use dps fire tome instead of ToW if there is another spell power buff and Heart of the Crusader avaible on single target fight. This is just like utility vs damage curse balance. Searing totem add notable dps boost and fire elemental isn't joke when you can use it. Searing totem have only 20yad range and fire elemental die pretty easily but still there is fights where both of these aren't problem. Example: Brutallus.

Edit:

    
* Demonic Pact (Tier 10) changed to: Your pet's criticals apply the Demonic Pact
effect to your party or raid members. Demonic Pact increases spell power by 2/4/6/8/10%
of your Spell Damage for 12 sec.

If this stay 10% and ToW don't scale there is break point somewhere.

Graze · 08/30/08, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Elemental shaman can now use dps fire tome instead of ToW if there is another spell power buff and Heart of the Crusader avaible on single target fight. This is just like utility vs damage curse balance. Searing totem add notable dps boost and fire elemental isn't joke when you can use it. Searing totem have only 20yad range and fire elemental die pretty easily but still there is fights where both of these aren't problem. Example: Brutallus.

Totem of Wrath is supposed to be the best option in that category, Focus Magic is 150, Flametongue is ~85? and Demonic Pact is somewhere around 150 aswell, whilst ToW is.. 160, or supposed to at least. I think. So it's not quite replaceable.

In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the "Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same potency, as they scale and grow in radically different ways. In virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of attack power.

Haha, "scale", yeah right.
I'm not speccing for Improved. Totem-I've-never-used-before. I don't know about you guys, but I sure hell aren't.

Kaideq · 08/30/08, 10:39 AM

The whole this will end raid stacking thing is just laughable, you will bring the least possible buff class's to bring all the raid buffs, then stack the highest single target dps class.

They just changed who gets raid stacked up to a certain amount.

• FinishHer · 08/30/08, 10:57 AM

Maybe I'm a bit confused on this concept, but you're saying our 41 PT talent in Elemental does the same thing as an 11 PT talent in the Arcane tree and they do not stack in early raiding. In later raiding, a scaling demonology talent will outperform ToW as well.

What?

Graze · 08/30/08, 11:00 AM

The "Increased Spell Power Buff" category needs to be split into "scaling" and "static".

Static would be Focus Magic and Flametongue. Giving 150 and ~90 accordingly. Not stacking with each other. Only the most powerful will apply.

Demonic Pact, Diving Spirit and Totem of Wrath could make the "scaling" category, giving 10% of the casters spellpower (and Divine Spirit keeps it's mechanic). Again not stacking with each other. Only the most powerful will apply.

Important: Only the overriding part will override similar effects: ie. If you have both Totem of Wrath and Divine Spirit, you both get the spirit from DS, and the spell power from whatever effect is the most powerful to you.
Also Totem of Wrath has a secondary component, while a more powerful Demoic Pact would override the spellpower component from ToW, it should still be worth it because of the secondary component. The uniqueness of talents and buffs like these must not go away!

--------------------

From my point of view;
Static buffs are bad. Example: Wrath of Air.
"Static scaling" buffs are bad. Example: Curse of the Elements.
"Scaling static" buffs are GREAT. Example: Vampiric Touch, Demonic Pact.

Motivation; a weak static buff is too good early on, and crap in end-game.
Arcane Intellect is an interesting one in particular because intellect doesn't increase that drasticly over a small span (the same level).

A "static scaling" buff is not good because sooner or later that 10% is going to be very noticeable and everyone else will be horribly dependant on it.

A buff should scale with the buffer, not the "buffee" (spelling on that?). Why? Because that way there's a reason to gear up the buffer (it sounds horribly selfish, I know), it benefits everybody, also it makes it alot more depending on your gear/playstyle and less on your class.
I don't really know how to explain this but I guess a warrior in full epic T6 gear would scream alot louder than someone with green level 65 quest rewards. Why doesn't the buffing improve as the player improves?
One could also draw the parallel into some skill that applies to 10% of your attacks and lasts X seconds, the more haste (ie. better gear) you get, the more that skill is active. It's called progression and improvement.

--------------------

I hate how this change killed class diversity, I remember a quote about tanking that said something "Let's not focus on what they do, instead of how they do it". I guess this could be applied here aswell, a shaman drops totems, a druid turns into an owl, both ways grants effect X, they do not stack. I guess you could buy that.

However I feel that class diversity is going away completely with this change, many people doesn't care about the process, only the result. But more importantly, unique effects are out the window. Elemental Oath are by my definition the best buff there is, from a design point of view. It require us to do something that we are specialized at - and nothing can replace that effect. Or well that was before 8885.

What I would wish for it more talents that would be "matched" towards each other, but not mutually exclude one another.
This is kind of what Lucitron was headed at, with different types of buffs and also what I mentioned in the first section of my post. Buffs should not stack to infinity, but nor should be be mutually exclusive.

If Elemental Oath grants 6% to critt vs. Moonkin aura that grants 5%, the strongest would apply, but the secondary effects should still be there, for example EO could grants 6% mana cost reduce and Moonkin aura could grant 3% haste - these's a million possibilities, Blizzards just needs to find them.

Also again, flat static buffs are bad. Rework Totem of Wrath. It's a 41 point talent for crying out loud.

Kaideq · 08/30/08, 11:11 AM

CoE scales by default since it's a 10% increase right?

Graze · 08/30/08, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kaideq

CoE scales by default since it's a 10% increase right?

Yes?
A level 70 naked warlock with 3 minutes played(on that level) can increase the damage done by others by as much as a 70 warlock in full T6 with over 200 days played(on that level).

10% is always 10% but 10% is more at 2000 than at 1000.

Kaideq · 08/30/08, 11:27 AM

Yet it scales with the "buffee" and the buffer, those hard % increases are all over wow, I really do not see why it would be bad to have certain buffs like that in. Sunder armour is more or less the same type of buff, since all boss armour ratings are pretty much in line with each other it's just a % increase for "buffee"and buffer.
It still a part of the synergy.

I completely agree with the rest though.

Wildwary · 08/30/08, 11:37 AM

I still don't think it's too much to ask for ToW to give 8% of the shamans spellpower or something. (it's ok that its slightly weaker, as demoic power is lower in the tree and has no crit component) If not, we'l be pritty decent in early 10 and 25 man, and loose viability the closer we get to the very endgame, unless our damage is much better than a demo locks.

On a more positive not, i think the elemental shaman is starting to look like a very good choice for 10 mans. We'l give a lot of buffs, especially if there is no moonkin and/or ret paladin there, which is moe likley in small scale raiding.

If Blizzard would fix ToW slightly and make the bloodlust a 4/3 min CD, while maintaing decent damage compared to most other dps'ers i'd be quite happy with the class.

Graze · 08/30/08, 1:41 PM

To return a little to my above post for clarification

About EO:
Perhaps the mana cost reduce could match in with a category together with the Replenish effect from Vampiric Touch, only one would apply (you don't have either up 100% of the time) and when the replenish jumps to someone else, EO remains. Or something, they're not the same (BoM vs. BS is the same) but accomplish somewhat the same thing (long livety). What about stacking for those two classes? If you have one, you wouldn't want the other? Well, Misery is(was) a 5% damage booster debuff, what about that matched against something the Elemental shaman offered was outmatched by that and after some number tweeking, the classes would be better at some thing and worse at some, ta-da: diversity.

This is even more into what Lucitron was saying before with different layers of buffs.

A Rose is a not a ROSE is not a rose I guess. Two things could accomplish the same thing in the end. Battle Shout vs. Hemo for example, they're not the same, but still the same. Sorry if this seems like whining but I'm just really in love with our old EO. I know these abilitys and how they scale could be very hard to balance, but ...they said thay had a bunch of knobs, turn'em! Don't throw the whole goddamn control panel out the window.

Kaideq · 08/30/08, 1:52 PM

Nah it doesn't feel like whine at all, I think the majority of people feel exactly the same as you.
I think we can expect a little more from Blizzard than the generic shit they just dumped on us this push.

Torgol · 08/30/08, 8:01 PM

I agree fully with what Graze is saying. This really just feels very lazy and dull, like Blizzard just threw up their hands and said "Nah, all this uniqueness is just too hard! Let's make everyone the same." That's an overstatement, of course, there are still differences between classes, but it feels like a lot of the essential character is being lost. Especially for shamans and paladins, who were originally conceived as buffing classes. I can readily imagine a raid situation in which all of a shamans totems and buffs are rendered completely redundant and the shaman never has any reason to bother dropping totems. That's a rather sad state of affairs, when totems are a defining characteristic of our class.

I also agree with the criticisms of the current workings of ToW. It's bad enough having to worry about keeping the totem positioned well to buff as many of our allies as possible, now we have to worry about repositioning it to ensure it affects as many enemies as possible as well? Far too much of a pain in the ass, to my mind. I'd rather switch the crit effects of ToW and EO, even if it means the crit debuff only affects single mobs.

Also displeased with the current spellpower buff category. If they separated out additive and multiplicative AP buffs, why on earth would they not do the same for spellpower? Hardly seems logical or fair, and it inevitably means that the additive buffs will eventually be superseded by the multiplicative ones. Won't take much for 10% of a demonology warlock's spellpower to be a whole lot more than 160. And why exactly should a warlock be a better caster buffer than an elemental shaman or a mookin druid? They already bring more than enough power to a raid group. Admittedly that will be changing, but it seems like if anyone is going to have superior scaling buffs it should be the classes that were conceived as buff classes to begin with. That at least might preserve some of the uniqueness between shamans, paladins, druids, and the rest of the "pure" DPS classes.

anyakaschala · 08/31/08, 1:39 PM

I'm just curious. Has any testing been done about gearing in WotLK.

Since it seems that 43/28/0 will be the dps build of choice, would hunter gear be ultimately better to wear? As we would get 100% intellect into spell power, 33% of AP into spell power. As most hunter gear will have tons of agility, AP and intelligence. And as bonus, it seems a lot of melee weapons also have hit rating on it, leaving the sockets available for spell power.

Thus something like the Headguard of the Westrift, has 138ap, 53agi, 36int. so (138+53)*.33+36int = 100sp. Not only that but has a socket and hit rating.

Just seems like gearing this way will make more sense that the actual gear for elemental. At least until we cap our hit.

Spectravita · 08/31/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by anyakaschala

As we would get 100% intellect into spell power, 33% of AP into spell power.

Isn't it 100% intellect into attack power? and 30% of AP into spellpower?

Originally Posted by anyakaschala

Thus something like the Headguard of the Westrift, has 138ap, 53agi, 36int. so (138+53)*.33+36int = 100sp.

The math would be (138 + 53 + 36) * 0.3 = 68.1 spell power

Where Horned Helm of Varos (admittedly leather but same item level) has 81 spell power and 57 haste and a yellow socket.