◊ Binkenstein

I'm betting you've missed something.

I think I'll do some Dr Boom testing myself, so I can play with logs tomorrow.

[e] I'm getting some odd results as well. I had more of a typical levelling build, including Concussion & SE&F, and I'm getting around 1.06 damage per spellpower, but I am using rank 13 (from lvl 73) and am 74 atm

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

Graze

Yeah I skipped Concussion for testing purposes, to make the math easier for me I'm level 70 using rank12 in my normal gear, swapped the meta for a spelldamage/+int one, using the -mana relic and nothing should be strange about that.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Daidalos

I'd be surprised if SEF has changed since I posted my data but I haven't sat down for testing since I posted my results. If there is something new was it in this most recent patch? I haven't really seen any unexpected dmg amounts while I've been leveling.


If you want post 10-20 LB results and tell me the talents you have used and I can plug it into my spreadsheet to show coefs. Since my results matched perfectly with my theorycrafted results I'm guessing there was just something you forgot but I'd like to see the results to make sure.

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Scaredofbees

Anyone else notice that on Blizzards page, their own talent calcs, now show a different version of Totem of Wrath?

"The totem increases damage done by spells and effects by 6% and and increases the critical strike chance of spells and effects by 3% to all party and raid members"

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

I'm really starting to get confused on whats what these days and who to believe.

 

Daidalos

The wow talent calculator has been out of date pretty much the entire beta. Ignore it. Read what testers and blue posts say

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Miaxi

lightnings_test.zip - FileFront.com

Combat log and screenshot with stats from nuking Dr.Boom with Lightning Bolt(Rank 13). No meta, no concussion, no totems and no set bonuses.

 

Daidalos

After talking with graze, I was able to confirm he was getting .94 for the LB coef as well. He had forgotten he had 4pct6 bonus in his earlier calculations. At this point I don't think there is much to be gained looking at more logs. My results perfectly matched the expected TC numbers as did Graze's

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

• ZulazeeluIcecrown

Whatever ever happened with this? I don't think I ever saw the result of the testing, and I just skimmed through the thread after this post again to make sure.

 

tufy

Funny, you're the second guy today to ask this :p I didn't get to testing it yet, had a bit of a problem (first the European server was down or had crap performance, now I need to find level 82 mobs, which are sadly only to be found in Storm Peaks, which is closed at this time). I'm afraid it'll take a bit to test it.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

ofancow

With the new gear releases available, it looks like it will be pretty "doable" for a Shaman to be in the 1500-1600 unbuffed/untalented spell power range within 3-4 weeks of level 80, with gems and enchants. If said Shaman is a LW/Enchanter and flasks/buffs that puts them near 1900. With that in mind, I can't see MD/MQ lasting past the T7 gearing level as a desirable spec for PvE.

 

Roywyn

Mob resists are confirmed to be unchanged.
4/5/6/17% against 0/1/2/3 levels above you. Detailed test with some thousand casts in the "combat ratings at 80" thread.

The reason why Malan suggested a 9% resist rate is because he had that amount of (spell) hit but back then he didn't know that Dual-Wield spec seems to affect spells.
He tested DW spec + no hit on gear and didn't get resists on yellow/green mobs.

So, bottom line:
Caster will need 17% hit.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
This assumes Rune of Razorice and Slow for Torment unless noted as "No TtW".
More detailed at http://elitistjerks.com/923110-post2775.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.

 

Darian_TruBlade

MQ&MD is a complete wash at this point. It hinged on being able to stack all manner of raid buffs in order to gain monstrous AP for a caster, turning it into nearly 900 SP. At the time the build was suggested the deep Elemental talents were absolutely horrid, such that there wasn't a conceivably reachable gear level where Deep Elemental passed MQ&MD.

Then Blizzard buffed SE&F and that changed drastically. At BC gear levels the two builds were extremely close, assuming you had all the buffs for MQ&MD. Then Blizzard stopped raid buff stacking by merging all sorts of buff. That, effectively, was the last nail in the coffin.

MQ&MD is an obsolete build. Speccing it is a novelty over a viable raiding option.

 

tufy

Thank you for the confirmation, Roywyn. I'll add this to OP just in case people will still be wondering.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Darian_TruBlade

The testing done in that thread was via Mind Vision and Mind Soothe, both spells without new ranks in WotLK. The theory was that the 9% cap is only implemented for WotLK ranks of spells, similar to how they had different base mana costs.

It's increasingly probable that nothing has changed. In fact, I'd say at best there's a 5% chance that the theory holds. In the interest of thoroughness it would still be good to take the opportunity to put the final nail in the coffin.

The lack of level 83 mobs in the wider world makes this difficult. The best hope would be to have 13% hit from gear and a reliable Shadow Priest/Boomkin on a tank and spank boss. If no spells are resisted over the course of the fight we have a case against the 17% number. Otherwise, it's clear there's much ado about nothing.

*For reference, Rowynn was referring to the following post.

Combat Ratings at level 80

 

ofancow

That is basically flat out incorrect. What the stacking nerf did was lower the crossover point where SE&Fs superior Lightning Bolt scaling surpasses the baked in benefits to all spells provided by MD/MQ.

The first step is ascertaining the AtP at level 80 in a raid setting looking at typical buffs that will be available that affect spell power:

known
GotW = 37 Str/Agi/Int = 33.3 sp
SoE = 155 Str/Agi = 93 sp
AB = 60 int = 60 AtP = 18 sp
BoM/BaS = 550 AtP = 165 sp
--------------
~309sp

speculative
Base AtP = 340 = 102 sp
geared Int (unbuffed) = 640 = 640 AtP = 192 sp
BoK = 30 Str/ 30 Agi / 70 Int (= 70 AtP) = 39 sp
--------------
~333 sp

Total of 642 sp baked into the MD/MQ build.

SE&Fs superior Lightning-spell-only break-even point can be quantified by 642/.25 = 2568 spell power.

That is roughly 200% of the amount of spell power available to Shaman at Sunwell-farm level gearing, and nowhere near your fantastic ideas of it being irrelavent.

Why the numbers are said to be in the 1900-2000 sp range is because, assuming a robust rotation, the 5% Lightning-only crit lost in Restoration starts to play a more significant factor at those high levels of gearing, and the loss of Lava Flows also eats into the lead of MD/MQ at those same high levels of gear.

Interestingly, as a side-effect of the stacking nerf, there are now certain raid comps in which Elemental Oath and Totem of Wrath may not be needed, depending on in what form certain Balance Druid and Death Knight abilities make it to Live. That means there is a real possibility that points will be open for Lava Flows as a part of MD/MQ, changing the equation quite a bit in favor of MD/MQ under those very narrow raid conditions. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...10300000000000

edit: not to say I am holding my breath for those specific narrow raid conditions, as it isn't clear how certain talents and stacking will ultimately go Live, let alone how "in demand" specific DK and Druid builds are going to be for raid comps. I look at the entire MQ build as basically being the first time Elemental Shaman have ever had an alternative viable build -- even if it ends up being only viable for X specific time frame until better gearing is available. I've been doing 33/0/18 > 31/0/20 > 41/0/20 since 2004 (yes, I was afaik the only elemental shaman in the world raiding Ony>Rag>Nef as a full DPS when each encounter was considered "end game" way back in the day, when all high end raids required Resto or gtfo). Having viable alternatives is a good thing, not something to be shunned.

 

Bronn

Wouldn't the break even point for a MQ/MD build be even lower since the bonus spell damage is also effected by the .71 coefficient. Assuming 642 bonus damage in the MQ/MD build and .94 coefficient for the SE&F build the break even point would be found at:

.71*(x+642)=.94x, where x is spell damage.

Solving gives x=~1981, which is significantly lower than the above results of 2568.

 

Daler

With all this focus on MD/MQ v. deep elemental, has anyone calculated in-game the effect of lava flows on the crit strike damage of Lava Burst? I'm curious to see what the final crit strike damage bonus ends up being with elemental fury, lava flows, and a CSD (or it's wotlk equivalent).

Same goes for SE&F's effect on Flame Shock's DoT component.

 

Daidalos

Bink and I have both accounted for this in our sheets but I haven't taken ele oath back out but lava flows works like CSD does. I haven't released my sheet due to the de/buffs situation. I'm going to wait till it is a littler clearer to me of what all will be applied and what won't be.

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Darian_TruBlade

I believe I am quite correct. Let's compare the two builds.

Deep Elemental:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...00000000000000

MQ&MD:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...13300000000000

Feel free to nitpick my choices, but that should be the general shape of each build.

Notable Differences:
Deep Elemental:
3/3 Lava Flows | 24% Lava Burst Critical Damage Bonus, 60% Flametongue Weapon Bonus
5/5 SE&F | 25% Lightning Bolts Coefficient, 100% Flameshock DoT Damage
1/1 Thunderstorm | 5% Mana Restore
5/5 Totemic Focus | 25% Reduction in Totem Mana Cost
4/5 Tidal Mastery | 4% Nature Crit

MQ+MD:
5/5 Ancestral Knowledge | 10% Intellect
3/3 Mental Quickness + 3/3 Mental Dexterity | 642 SP

(765 + (SP+642) * .714) * 1.05 [Concussion] * 1.1 [Lightning Overload] * 1.35 [Crit%]
(1223 + .714SP) * 1.56
1909 + 1.114SP

(765 + SP * .94) * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.39
(765 + .94SP) * 1.605
1228 + 1.5SP

1.5SP - 1.114SP = 1909 - 1228
.386SP = 681
SP = 1764

My T4 Shaman has ~900 SP unbuffed. Adding a Flask, an Oil, ToW and 55 SP to Lightning Bolt from his Relic, he could hit ~1250 SP. It doesn't seem unthinkable that an Elemental Shaman at 80 could easily reach ~1750 SP buffed up for their first Naxx raid, though someone with the Beta will have to chime in on that one.

As for ditching Elemental Oath and ToW, I believe ToW is supposed to be the biggest SP buff of that grouping and is the best in it's Crit debuff class for trash (Paladins can only get Heart of the Crusader going on one target at a time). Additionally, Gruul-like fights will entail enough spreading out that having both an Elemental Shaman and a Boomkin will have benefit in buffing more people. Unless the vast majority of raids lack significant Multi/AoE pulls and spread out fights, I don't see freeing up Elemental Oath and ToW as likely.

I agree that having viable alternatives is not something to be shunned, but as it stands MQ&MD doesn't appear to be a viable alternative.

 

Sufjans

It looks like in an upcoming build, there will be more test dummies - some level 80, and a "boss" level one, which would be perfect for testing the new ranks of spells and finally put the theory of 9% hit on new ranks to rest.

Source: WoW Forums -> Thanks for the training dummies!

 

Durnitol

If I'm reading the following right, and I think I am, your above statement is slightly inaccurate.

If there is essentially NO global cooldown after an earth shock, you could work it into the rotation. This means 5 talents in reverberation, throwing off the 43/28/0 build. Assuming a build more along the lines of 58/13/0 or 51/0/20, there is some math here that needs to be done, but the gist is:

0.0 FlS (+100% DoT)
1.0 CL
2.5 LB (+25% Spell Power)
4.5 LB (+25% Spell Power)
6.5 ES
6.5 CL
8.0 LB (+25% Spell Power)
10.0 Lava (124% crit)

rinse, repeat
12.0 FlS

Now this looks a bit off because of exact timing... but consider Haste Rating. If the math holds true, you would need some bare minimum of spell haste to pull off this maximum dmg output of this build. I hear Wrath of Air provides 5% spell haste =). 5% spell from current algorithm = 1/1.05 * cast time, which is .1 seconds off every 2 sec Lava burst and Bolt, and .07 sec off of CL. With that included, and 0 spell haste from gear....

0.0 FlS (+100% DoT)
1.0 CL
2.43 LB (+25% Spell Power)
4.33 LB (+25% Spell Power)
6.23 ES
6.23 CL
7.66 LB (+25% Spell Power)
9.56 Lava (124% crit)

11.46 FlS Repeat

Mana cost is

17%
26%
10%
10%
18%
26%
10%
22%
Total = 139% base mana - 10% redux from talents = 125%.

However, if you factor in a little bit of spell haste from gear, say 10% (about 160 rating), your total cast time on LB becomes 2.0/1.15 = 1.74

0.0 FlS (+100% DoT)
1.0 LB (+25% Spell Power)
2.74 LB (+25% Spell Power)
4.48 LB (+25% Spell Power)
6.22 ES
6.22 LB (+25% Spell Power)
7.96 LB (+25% Spell Power)
9.80 Lava (124% crit)

Total mana = 107% - 10% redux = 96.3% base mana.

Using the stats from the original MD/MQ comparison post:


LB : (765 + 2013*.794) * 1.05 * 1.10 * 1.38 * .95))= 3578.55
Lava Burst crit w 3/3 Lava flows: (1010 + 2013*.571) * 1.05 * 1.06 * 1.10 * 2.24 *.95 = 5626
Earth Shock: (871 + 2013*.43) * 1.05 * 1.10 * 1.28 * .95 = 2439
Flame Shock: (550 + 2013*.15) * 1.05 * 1.28 = ~1145 initial damage / (1224 + 2013*.52)*.75 = 1703 DoT damage

Total rotation not including overload damage = 28806

Add 1 overload proc: 803*1.05*1.10*1.38*.95 = 1216

Grand total = 30022 damage. Over 11.54 sec, that's 2601.6 dps.

Now the post in question mentions a rotation and adds numbers that I don't see how he came up with... but to use his numbers