dedmonwakeen

#8
I do add up haste ratings..... but what about Wrath of Air, Swift Retribution, and the Totem of Wrath Glyph? Those are percentages and my understanding was that they stack in the following manner:
CastTime / ( ( 1.0 + HasteFromRating ) * ( 1.0 + HasteFromPercentage1 ) * ( 1.0 + HasteFromPercentage2 ) ... )

#12
Ah..... I had it coded up as 6 2sec ticks for some reason..... I'll fix that..... but I still have a question about your spreadsheet: Cell 40E on DEP seems to contain the total amount of FS DoT damage if all ticks land. And then cell 41E is 3x that amount because you are "clipping" one tick. Shouldn't 41E be 0.75x instead? Do you divide by 4 some other place that I just haven't found?

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

◊ Binkenstein

8) Good point. I don't think anyone has done much testing on that front yet (testing stuff on beta is a bit hard when it dies every 5 minutes). Logically, they should have the same mechanism, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's changed to be just flat addition, since WoA + Imp Moonkin + ToW with glyph + heroism = 1.39 as addition, but 1.42 as a multiplier. Might try some experiments with a guildie on the PTR tonight.

12) Yep, you're right, stuffed up on that one.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

dedmonwakeen

Thankfully there are enough tools out there to compare/contrast each other and help catch bugs. Just poring over your spreadsheet enabled me to find several problems in the simulator......

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

◊ Binkenstein

Yeah. My problem is that this sheet has been going since mid 07 or earlier (I can't remember when I started) and has had alot of cell names, various random functions and so forth put in. I should really go through and remove some of them, or tidy up the naming system.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

Daidalos

Looks like things are still the same.
Without talents FS coefs are
shock: .214
dot tick: .1 (.1*4 = .4 for total dot dmg)

I should note that SEF and concussion seem to stack additively instead of multiplicatively. So with SEF the dot coef is 1.55 instead of 1.5 *1`.05 as I initially assumed
conc & SEF dock tick: .155

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Cuer

Various Shaman tweaks incoming listed by Ghostcrawler, and a lot of "we're thinking about it" regarding Elemental DPS:

 

Scaredofbees

I'm really confused.

Sep 24:
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> So wait let me get this straight.....

"The good news is that overall, Elemental damage was low."

Today:
"..and if anything Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are a little too good."

 

• Althor

Sorry Shamans:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Shaman Changes

 

Harth

I am posting in regards to Focus Magic which I have a question about. Has anyone tested how this interacts with ToW? Because according to the new stacking rules these buffs will not stack? Perhaps the debuff list on the first page of this thread as ToW's functionality has changed?

 

Roywyn

Focus Magic used to be a raidwide +150 spell power buff for 60 seconds, competing with the buffs listed above.

It has been completely redesigned and does not compete with other buffs except with itself now.
Focus Magic - Spell - World of Warcraft

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
This assumes Rune of Razorice and Slow for Torment unless noted as "No TtW".
More detailed at http://elitistjerks.com/923110-post2775.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.

 

Lintra

This could mean that the LB coef remains unchanged from current live, or it could mean no further nerfs. Either way I will put my trust in the design team not to mess us up too badly and just wait.

Some of the simulation numbers I've seen posted in this thread showed us completely gimped with dps just above holy priests - I seriously doubt that will be the final product. On the other paw I don't want to be the 'just barely cutting it dps" that is only brought on a raid cuz they like my sense of humor. So get ready to compile data from historic parses and post it comparing old and new performances ... of course the nerf in raid mobs (bosses as well) means some care will have to be taken when looking at total damage done, and the burst damage guys will be higher against a boss with less health, but it will help bliz if we can offer historic data using essentially the same groups on the same trash and bosses.

 

Aanzeijar

I don't care about three months at 70, and I don't care about leveling. I got my beta key late, and had to quest the long way, but I still 4-shotted every mob in my level range, so if that goes up or down a bit doesn't matter.

The funny thing is, in lv80 heroics, no matter what crap equip you have, you will still top the damage meters, because with the new aggro tanks can build up, chain lightning is by far the best spell in the game. Use it on cooldown, and there is not a chance anyone can come close, because real AoE only gets worthwhile at 5 mobs and above, and single target can't keep up with CL. This holds true even in Halls of Lightning, where a quarter of the instance is nature immune.

 

Teenee

You are talking trash in this case, and, for better or worse, single-target DPS is the focus of these boards.

But this may indeed be the kind of "too good", that Blizzard sees. Alot of people on these boards focus on the single-target nuke spec, where we may be weak (I have no beta access, so can only go by TC posted on these boards), but if we make up for it by being very high DPS on trash, Blizzard may feel it evens out. Question of course remains if that is a position people will enjoy.

 

Tzarr

Yeah, theres definitely truth in that, especially with the huge buff to chainlightnig (3,5 sek cd). At trash and 5-player inis, eles will rock hard... unfortunately that doesnt make us good at most of the bossfights were we fight single targets. Nevertheless I'm confident, that blizzard will balance the classes and specs, simply because they want to. In BC or Classic equality in DPS between classes and specs was never the aim and therefore there never really was one, because they had other things that made classes with lower DPS usefull. This entire concept changes with WotLK and all specs and classes are meant to be equal in DPS. And honestly, I dont think thats to difficult to achieve, once they fix the bugs.

 

Aanzeijar

Let me put it this way:

If Blizzard thinks up some way that a shaman can use the extra hops of CL in the majority of the boss fights, then SimulCraft dps would increase by about 15-20%, most likely more, since the rotation used there does not favor CL.

 

Graze

Well, I've written about this on the Blizzard forums, I notice it alot too, CL is a kick-ass spell for 5 mans and I sure hope that's not where they pull their data from. If nothings changed CL still scales 125% if it hits 3 targets(don't know about four) and that's pretty decent together with a high base damage.
In the most cases it's single-target boss damage that counts and nobody has to tell anyone how that differs from a 5man with lots of smaller trash pulls.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Medicine Man

I get rather nervous when Blizzard developers start calling our spells "a bit too good" based on the mana/damage ratios of the base abilities. Granted, GC does mention the number of talents buffing lightning bolt, so I really hope that all his talk about scaling being on their radar isn't a bunch of happy nonsense. If they keep lava burst on a 8 second cooldown, no amount of tweaking is going to make fire the majority of our damage. So a deliberate omission of abilities to prop up our lightning spells will really hurt us vis a vis other casters. That is what he looks like he's saying; don't expect any new scaling talents for LB, we think it is too strong already. Am I reading too much into GC's statements?

So... let us assume that LB remains as it is in beta now. -8% spell power coefficient from the mastery band aid removal. Stormstrike off the table. Curse of Elements on the table. Under those circumstances, what kind of buffs do we need elsewhere to make us competitive?

 

grutak

I think GC referring to the number of talents that affect LB is misleading for that discussion because shaman only had 1 spell to talent, so it had to have a lot of talents affecting it. Everyone else gets at least 2. The desto tree would be the same way if locks didn't get any fire spells.

I was looking around for a spreadsheet/chart that shows the comprehensive DPM of all spells at 80(from untalented, to talented), but have come up short(and lack the knowhow to make one really). Does anyone happen to have one bookmarked somewhere?

I read a great post on the beta forums(WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [Feedback] Elemental Shaman) that outlines one of the problems we are currently facing. Basically, shaman are front loaded for damage at 80 and don't scale(we all know this), but Bliz for years have been saying that they don't balance for 1v1/solo. It almost looks like they very well may be balancing some aspect of the game around 1v1, and because of this assessment, its skewing some of their theory about us.

 

• ZulazeeluIcecrown

OK, I went over the math (literally on a napkin) and I have come to this conclusion: Ghostcrawler is still using a broken spreadsheet. Something in their spreadsheet just flat-out does not line up with the code in the game, and they are simply unaware of it. Every attempt to explain that seems to have gone misunderstood or come across to GC as a whine. For what it's worth there seems to be the same fundamental disconnect vis a vis Haste for Hunters.

 

Ulthwithian

With the latest comments on Elemental Shaman, there are a few scenarios that can be true:

1) dedmon's SimulationCraft is quite incorrect re: Elemental damage. The model is constantly being updated with the player SOTA, but something pretty fundamental must be missing from the model for it to be that far off.

2) Blizzard's spreadsheets (or whatever they're basing their information on) is incorrect. We have no way of verifying this, one way or the other.

3) At least half of the specs listed in SimulationCraft are OP by Blizzard's standard.

Can anyone think of any others?

Disregarding all of that, as it currently stands, Elemental Shaman have quite bad scaling. I see nothing so far that is counteracting that scaling issue. Therefore, no matter the current position of Elemental Shaman in Wrath, the data trends are pretty obvious.

I would love to be corrected on any of this.

 

Medicine Man

Another possibility, Ulthwithian, is that Blizzard and company is basing their assessment of class damage output on a static gear snapshot (ie. level 80 w heroic gear) rather than a spectrum of future gear/buff levels. Under those circumstances, scaling issues won't be as apparent and elemental DPS may seem remarkable, depending on what buffs they have implemented in developer-land.

All of this talk from Blizzard about mana/damage ratios is not encouraging. While important, the mana/damage ratio is still secondary to gear/performance ratio when measuring the future prospects of a caster class. I hope Blizzard still has this in mind.

 

Ulthwithian

Medicine Man: A static gear snapshot, by definition, does not take into account scaling factors, as apart from set bonuses, the gear won't have scaling factors in them.

Thus, I would classify any attempt by Blizzard to look at a snapshot as indicative of the whole as a failure in Blizzard's spreadsheets. It is not hard to find coefficients or understand their impact on future developments. The fact that from what we can tell Elemental Shaman are at or near the bottom of the DPS charts by end of Naxxramas makes the future even more concerning.

 

◊ Binkenstein

I don't think there is one.
Would be an interesting peice of work though.

[A period of time passes]

Well, I put together the shaman part.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...lYm_Rlz4F0wJHg

Now to go and put in the other classes.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.