Junox

Just for fun, I ran SimulationCraft with the following values:

gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=500
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=1000

Here is my chart.



It either seems that SimulationCraft doesn't properly calculate haste, I did something wrong, or that more than doubling the haste only gained a 500dps increase. If these numbers are right, even with an insane haste value (that I do not know is possible), we are below the other DPS classes.

 

Tainter

Did you apply the haste to all the other classes too? Did they run out of mana?

If you can't join them?
Beat them.

 

dedmonwakeen

I'm pretty sure your chart looks almost exactly like the one we distribute with the windows download....... Are you certain you generated a new one....... and if so, are you sure you used it to make the pix?

Side note: The forum moderators probably don't want this forum to fill up with GoogleCharts unless it helps to illustrate something specific about the Elemental class. Generic observations should probably go in the SimulationCraft thread where the moderators will be more tolerant of GoogleChart/Code spam.

EDIT: Ah, I see. You just bumped the haste on Ele Shamans. My apologies.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Junox

Sorry if that wasn't clear-- I should have quoted the guy before me. Yes, all I did was bump haste on Elemental Shamans (and a bit of crit from messing around before), so even with far better gear than the other classes, we're still gimped

 

jimmyolsen

One of the first changes I'd like to see is for them to change Flametongue Weapon to something that matches the Warlock's Fel Armor. If it buffed spell power by 180 + 15% of intel instead of the flat 211 it currently grants, it would make up for the lack of Stat -> Spell Power talent. My only concern with said change would the effect it would have on Enhance Gearing, which seems to keep giving us problems.

 

Daidalos

I like that idea and a easy work around would be adding in the scaling part to lava flows so that no Enh build could pick it up. Does anyone know if all the other casters have a stat->spellpower talent?

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Ocyr

Other classes scale with haste too, most of them better than Shaman.

The argument: "Haste is a Shamans best DPS scaling stat" does not equal "If Shaman stack haste they can get comparable DPS to other classes."

Those are two completely separate and unrelated statements.

Haste can in fact be a Shamans best stat to stack, and a Shaman can stack it to insane levels, and still never get to a point where they deal comparable damage to other classes (assuming similar gear). Because other classes benefit from Haste as well as (and almost always better than) Shaman.

I agree that the Developers will probably avoid any changes that would further boost Enhancements ability to gain further spell power. As it stands, with MQ, Enhancement have access to more powerful spell power talents than Elemental Shaman have already.

 

Eleven

One of the big things elemental shaman are missing, which has been implemented across the board for casters other than in the case of winter's chill/scorch, is the whole idea of "selfless buffer" portions of talents that increase individual damage in the case of a non-unique buff. Elemental oath and to a lesser extent totem of wrath, talent points spent for raiding, become almost useless when grouped with classes which can overwrite them.

 

grutak

Mages: Mind Mastery, Empowered spells(kinda stretching for these, but spell power -> spell power)
SPriest: Twisted Faith
Holy Priest: Spiritual Healing
Balance Druid: Lunar Guidance, Imp Moonkin form
Resto Druid: Imp Tree of life (spirit -> healing)
Lock: Fel Armor
Paladin: Holy Guidance
Resto Shaman: Nature's Blessing



We are the only class that doesnt get a stat->spell power. On second thought, I guess you could add on disc priests too.

 

Ocyr

Grutak, Nature's Blessing was nerfed several builds ago, it is no longer a stat > spell power conversion talent. It was nerfed to pure healing-only.

 

Hainar

From various blizzard forums WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [suggestion] Make TS trainable, LvB 51 talent & World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Blue Responce Welcome...and all shamans :-)

Can someone theory craft the making of TS trainable at 75 say and LvB the 51point elemental talent with suitable buffage. Would it make that much of a difference in reality?

 

grutak

I realize its healing only. I was showing stat > stat conversion talents are in every tree, except elemental and disc priests.

 

◊ Binkenstein

If they buffed LvB a bit, then it would be quite nice. The only catch is that a trainable Thunderstorm would be nerfed by either reducing effects or increasing the cooldown, as well as removing the only interactive mana restore we have.
I guess turning Unrelenting Storm into a mana restore function like that would work though.

<Sporks> quote of the day: "it's like the vague leading the blind directing the clueless guiding the stupid around here"
Yahtzee In short, no. In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Nite_Moogle The correct answer here is to blame Asgorath.
Nemesis This is the BB, temporal constraints are for lesser forums.

 

Graze

Quite frankly the damage would have to go, that way it wouldn't require ranks at all either. It would be fun to get lava burst to play with that soon to be honest, not having to wait untill 75.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Daidalos

Well I didn't really want to include healers just dps casters. Can someone break down what the actual conversions are of and what % ?

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Telumehtar

My first post here, though I've been lurking for awhile, so be kind.

The issue I keep seeing being raised between Elemental shaman players, and the devs, is the disagreement over how well Elemental shaman are scaling, countered by a desire of the devs to get Elementals to use the new toy (Lava Burst).

The attempts that the devs have thrown at us, to try and entice us into using Lava Burst have been clunky at best, and counter productive at worst, and all fail to address the issue of scaling in an adequate manner (save for when SE&F actually had a Lightning Bolt damage increase). So I've been mulling over the problem we the Elemental community seem to be seeing, vs the desire of the devs to get us to use this new Flame Shock/Lava Burst mechanic.

The best compromise I can think of would be to have Lava Burst Crits offer some sort of scaling benefit to Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. Instead of Storm, Earth and Fire, something like:

Firestorm 5/5 talent: Upon critting with a Lava Burst, the shaman attains a buff granting 2/4/6/8/10%(numbers can be fidgeted with) increased damage to Lightning Bolt, and Chain Lightning for 10 Seconds.

Due to it's depth, its out of the reach of Enhancement shamans (a concern I've seen here), and due to it feeding off Lava Burst Crits we have incentive to use the Flame Shock/Lava Burst mechanic they are offering as the new toy, and we see scaling brought into our bread and butter skill(s) Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. This also allows for another talent which has situational benefit to gain some more functionality... Elemental Mastery.

If we wanted to jump start the Scaling factor, we could lead with an Elemental Mastery->Lava Burst opening, instead of trying to maximize Flame Shock return and waiting to fire off a Lava Burst after a few ticks of Flame Shock.

Anyhow, I thought I'd throw out my thoughts, and look for some feedback, and perhaps even have some number crunchers chew on it a bit. If the idea has merit I'd like to throw it to the beta boards as I do have access being a beta player atm.

 

Daidalos

Grats on your first post not only not an infraction waiting to happen but also being a fairly good idea. I'm currently lacking data on balance druids but compared to mages a 10% increase to LB dmg would give us scaling on par with mages (not counting stat-> spell power conversion). I'd be perfectly ok with this since it would really only be a PVE dps gain, personally I'd just prefer a 10% boost to LB in SEF but if bliz is against that for whatever reason this would be the next best thing.


Mages:
Mind Mastery
SPriest:
Twisted Faith
Balance Druid:
Lunar Guidance - 12% of int -> spell power
Imp Moonkin form - 15% of spi -> spell power
Lock:
Fel Armor

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Ocyr

That has been discussed before, I believe in reference to a possible improvement / change to SE&F. I thought it was a good idea then, and still like it -- though I wouldn't like it as a new talent in addition to SE&F.

On a different and unrelated note, I saw probably the best Elemental Shaman AoE suggestion so far, on the beta forums. WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [Suggestion] Yet Another AoE suggestion I don't know if Blizzard plans on ever giving the Elemental tree an AoE spell, but if they did, that idea has my vote.

 

Ulthwithian

Daidolos: To be frank, I'm not sure if a stat -> spellpower conversion talent would be useful to an Elemental Shaman. It doesn't help scaling, per se. To help the Elemental Shaman scaling issue, you want abilities that increase the return of dps on the +dmg stat, no? Gaining, say, 15% of Int as spellpower would give the t7 Chestpiece 11.7% more +dmg. However, the relative value of +dmg between an Elemental Shaman and a Mage or Moonkin will not have changed. Also, when you consider that, at leas for a Mage, a Mind Mastery spec (generally, deep Arcane) is not the best damage spec for a Mage and also has the worst scaling of any of the Mage specs... I'm not sure such an argument is useful.

 

Daidalos

I'm not dedicated to having it per se I simply want ele shaman scaling to match others. So for my purposes I am trying to compare in a spread sheet the scaling /s of whatever dps rotation different classes have. So I simply want them included in the calculations. Obviously if we have the same scaling as boomkin on paper but they also have a int and spi -> spell power conversion that is not taken in account they will in reality have better scaling since they will get more spell power off the same ilvl gear than we would. I just don't know what all every class has and what spec people are expecting to raid with etc. I am trying to find so see what improvements to ele scaling are needed.

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Hidden

How would Elemental Shaman DPS look like if Lava Burst refreshed Flame Shock instead of consuming it, wouldn't be a guaranteed crit then and you could use glyphed Earth Shocks instead of Flame Shock? Wouldn't that greatly increase Shaman DPS scaling without increasing the burst in PvP or changing LB at all?
Lava Burst would scale with crit then and glyphed ES has a 0.43 coefficient with a cast time of only 0.5, that means it has great spellpower scaling.

 

Lucitron

Worth to mention is that with the patch then wands will be off the global cooldown, plus spell haste will then also affect the attack speed of melee weapons, including wands. In short, machinegun Mages, Warlocks and Priests.


_____________________________________________


There are a lot of posts talking about scaling that also in the same breath mention various talents that convert intellect to spell power. Personally I consider those talents to be more or less compareable to our own Elemental Weapon talent in the enhancement tree, and thus they fall very low on my "drool list", i.e. talents I would love to have.

My reasoning? Well, if you assume that Blizzard balanced Elemental Weapons with the max rank of these int-to-spell-power talents for blue geared level 80 folks, then the edge these talents have to Elemental Weapons is all the intellect they can get from upgrades at this point. Lets assume that a T9:ish person will have gained 200 more intellect than a T7 chap, then for a 15% transfer rate they will have gained 30 spell power. I find this to be a relative low number. It should at least have far less impact than those talents that offer a straight on damage modifier, or cast time reduction.


_____________________________________________

To go for a totally different topic, then not that long ago Enhancement Shamans were considering to go with caster gear to maximize their dps. Of course Blizzard didn't like this so they decided try to tweak it all to promote traditional melee gear. Now, I read about one fellow Elemental Shaman that planned to level up in WotLK using an Enhancement-spec, but with Elemental gear. This got me wondering if an Enhancement spec using Elemental gear will deal more damage than an Elemental-spec with Elemental gear?

I would have tried to answer the question myself if I could get simcraft to run here at work, but since I can't, I'll just toss it out as food for thought.

In a galaxy far, far away, senator Palpatine just learned Lightning Bolt rank 12.

 

Ulthwithian

Daidolos: We are agreed in the ends that we are aiming for. I think it's good to bear in mind, though, that Blizzard generally likes using different means to achieve their ends. Asking for a stat->spellpower conversion talent will probably smack of a 'grass is greener' mentality to them, and cause them to underestimate the actual rhetorical power of your statements.

About the only suggestion I can make for helping Elemental scaling is to have SEF increase the chance of Lightning Overload proccing rather than the CL cooldown (since they're not likely to change something else in SEF for a Lightning effect). This would also have an ancillary effect of perhaps helping AoE-ish abilities.