Sprout

Nothing is final, so we are all speculating. But where is the 'fair boost' to Shammie DPS. @ level 70, imp WS will give you ~ 235 mana per orb. If you dont regem for crit a T6/SP resto will have about 20% crit, you end up with 93 mp5 when spamming HW. Nice, but not heart stopping Also, how many fights do we spam HW on in BC?

In CH fight we get zero increase in man regen...not much of a boost in zero.

 

Vuldunobetra

Blizzard has said spamming a single healing spell over and over is boring, and they didn't want those type of encounters. The old strategy of spamming CH just in case it chains will be over. We'll use CH selectively. Also, T6 gear was designed for WoW 2.0 for raiding at 70. Raiding at 80, there will be new gear. If Blizzard wants shaman to regen via crit, I'd expect more crit on the raiding gear.

Once the final numbers are in, I look forward to the TheoryCrafting. I have a hunch that a CH-HW-HW-HW rotation will heal more and be more efficient than CH spam, due to Tidal Wave and AA. HW will put up some huge numbers:
------------------
2500 +heal
3250 HW @ lvl 80

non-crit HW = 3250 + 2500 * 0.87 = 5392
non-crit HW + TW = 3250 + 2500 * 0.87 * 1.25 = 5928

crit HW = (3250 + 2500 * 0.87) * 1.5 = 8088
crit HW + TW = (3250 + 2500 * 0.87 * 1.25) * 1.5 = 8892
add in AA on all crits
crit HW + AA= 12,941
crit HW + TW + AA = 13,380
-------------

One question about Tidal Waves, does the cast time reduction come off the base time or the post-talent time, i.e. is it (3.0 -0.5) * 0.7 = 1.75 or (3.0 * 0.7)- 0.5 = 1.6?

 

PsyBomb

Mail19 - World of Raids Gallery
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From what has been seen so far, both crit and MP5 are prevalent on caster mail and shields. I'm not surprised in the slightest, to be quite honest; Elemental is very crit-dependent and Resto can now leech off of those same stats.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Sprout

I was not referring to 80. I was talking about the 3.0 patch with the current set of BT & SP fights. BT Im not worried about but Brut and Twins are CH spam fests. I suppose you could try to do those with CH/HQ/HW/HW and depend on AA, but with no mana buffs, no down ranking, and only 1 pot per fight, fights like Brut and Twins will be pretty tough.

This is especially true with the gear sets we have. If I regem for all crit I will gain ~ 6.5% and lose several hundred +heal and a BUNCH of haste. Even if they reitemize the gear in BT & sunwell we will still have MAJOR mana issues unless the cost of HQW and LHW are adjusted down

 

jlavarj

I have a smidge of haste on my resto shaman, and when Tidal Waves is up my LHW is at a 1.06 cast time and HW is at 1.67 second cast.

 

Shuror

That would mean Tidal Waves is a haste effect. If Tidal Waves cut the cast time of HW/LHW by a flat 30%, LHW would cast in .7*1.5 = 1.05 seconds. You cast LHW slower than that.

You should have 1.5/(1.06*1.3) = 1.088= 8.8% haste from gear. I'm not sure if your numbers are correct, if they're with the same gear or something, because your HW should turn out as 1.77 seconds.

The deviation on HW is 5.8% haste. Are you sure you didn't have WoA up when you checked HW's cast time? That would explain the difference, when accounting for display rounding errors ingame.

 

jlavarj

Sorry, I was going from memory on the numbers. I logged in to check, and removed my haste cloak. With the tidal waves buff up, LHW has a 1.05 sec cast time and HW has a 1.75 sec cast time . Again, that is with 0 bonus haste.

 

Shuror

All right, that would mean it is a 30% cast time reduction effect, not a haste effect. In addition, it is proof that the cast time multiplier is applied after cast time reduction talents, not before.
.7*1.5 = 1.05
.7*2.5 = 1.75

 

jlavarj

in the interest of documentation. I have the 0.5 second cast time reduction talent on healing wave as well.

With 18 haste rating = 1% haste (by the character sheet)
LHW = 1.48 sec cast
HW = 2.47 sec cast

With Tidal Waves Buff up and 1% haste
LHW = 1.04 sec cast
HW = 1.73 sec cast

 

Kindralas

Haste is not a full cast time reduction. Essentially, it boils down to getting X% more casts in 100 casts. 15.76 haste = 1% Spell Haste. The spellbook also rounds to hundredths, but I don't think there's a way of verifying that the actual cast times are that precise. It feels as though they are when I modify my haste. I generally run with 224 haste, I can take of a piece to drop my cast time by a hundredth or two, and it feels slower, but lag being what it is, there's no means of verifying.

Anyway, that 224 haste equates to 14.213% Spell Haste. This does not mean I cast Chain Heal 14.213% faster (2.145s/cast), it means I get 114.213 Chain Heals in the time it takes to cast 100 without haste (2.189s/cast). If you have a calculator handy, just get the % haste from your character pane, add the percentage to 100, and then divide the cast time of the spell times 100 (for example, 250 in the case of Chain Heal), and then divide the latter by the former.

Spell Casting Time Reductions, such as Heroism/Bloodlust, and I assume the new buff, are more along the lines of flat reduction (1.75s/cast, in the case of Heroism/Bloodlust). Effects which simply give you haste (like Scarab of the Infinite Cycle) simply add to your haste rating, then calculate from there (bringing me to 544 haste, 34.518% Spell Haste, 1.86s/cast).

When they stack, I'm not entirely sure what goes on, because it should simply be multiplicative, giving me 1.53s/cast regardless (with some very slight variations), but in-game, it gives me 1.68s/cast. I'll do some more testing when my stupid cooldown comes back up.

Edit: Some further testing, Heroism functions identically to Spell Haste, meaning that it will allow you 130 casts in the time it takes to cast 100, which is where the 1.68s/cast comes from. The formula, for ease, is 2.5/(1+Spell Haste as decimal)/1.3 for Heroism. How that interacts, however, with Tidal Waves, I don't know. Either it'll stack on top of Heroism (making that number 1.6), or it'll be another multiplier afterward (more likely.) I don't have the beta, so I can't test that.

 

madrix

I would like to get some theories on values of stats that other shaman think we will be aiming for. Given the increased mana cost, and addition of crit talents for mana return (imp. water shield) it would be a safe bet that mp5 or crit would be the highest value. With haste requiring more rating for % haste, as well as the ability for haste effects from new talents, it appears that haste will be severely devalued.

In my opinion at 80 and starting raiding again will value stats in the following order:

mp5 > crit rating > healing > spell haste.

Ofcourse depending on the values of water shield, crit rating could overtake mp5 but i would suspect them to be close in value.

Once the next set of tier gear gets implemented and further increases in gear, healing should once again overtake mp5 just as in TBC.

Anyone have thoughts or any raw data to compare?

 

Daidalos

Really unknown right now. You can TC HPS but right now raid mana regen and the amount of mana needed for fights in wotlk pretty much mean this won't be known until people start raiding with everyones talents working.

Elemental Shaman calculations: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWuwb3e2IkuZKw

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

I'm not seeing crit as something to gear heavily for. We already get 9% from talents, and since we'll be sharing gear with elemental shaman, I'm sure that most of the gear we'll have access to will have even more crit on it. Unless fights become a lot shorter than BC fights, or there are windows where we can not cast and regen mana outside of the 5 second rule, I get the feeling I'll be stacking all the Mp5 I can get. It sure would be nice if we got the spirit regeneration that druids and priests get, or the return of mana for crit (paladins) or overhealing (priests), instead of having to rely on straight Mp5.

 

Sprout

We do get mana for crit with Imp WS, but it obviously does not scale. If we get a large coefficient from spellpower to WS then that talent might be worth while, but for now it is pitiful at best.

Actually haveing the WS scale better would be a great option IMO, because it does play to the imp WS talent, and helps scale our mana regen talent. % of int or mp5 would also be good for Imp WS.

This would keep our regen unique compared to other healing classes, yet give us a way to stack regen aside from straight mp5. And at 13 points I doubt any elemental shammies will be speccing into it. Certainly no enh will.

 

Vuldunobetra

Blizzard will bring up the 3.0x patch of the test severs in the upcoming weeks. Blizzards intentions are to ensure that the changes don't break any current content (BT & Sunwell included). If specific encounters are much more difficult, I expect Blizzard to make changes. Encounters might be nerfed, for example. Or maybe Sunwell gets a special zone-wide buff that changes the potion timer back ta pot every two minutes.

The changes give other classes new or improved ways to AOE heal. Instead of shaman spamming CH the whole fight, new strategies might need to be formulated. Maybe mixing in CH-HW-HW rotations while more healers help AOE heal. In some ways this sucks, as groups will have 4-6 weeks to learn new strats and assignments before the expansion launches.

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Scalling WS is a great idea, although I think they'd probably make it scale in relation to mp5, because Blizzard seems to be against the idea of increasing healing/spell power as a legitimate way to conserve/regen mana (as shown in the downranking change). I'm still under the impression that most elemental shaman are going to be speccing 20 into resto for the 5% crit to LB, so if it was going to be a "resto" only talent, it'd have to go above that. However, if they increased the effect to crits on all spells, it would still be high enough into the tree that enhance shaman wouldn't go for it, but also give elementals a legitimate mana regen ability as well.

 

Anaram

Given 3.0 I think Shamans will be best served by gemming intellect rather than crit. Intellect gives very reasonable spell crit compared to crit rating, some spell power due to talents and most importantly a bigger mana pool and bigger returns from various mana regeneration mechanisms (mana tide, replenishment, water elemental...) This might change when a sufficient amount of regeneration is reached, of course.

 

PsyBomb

Water shield does not really need scaling. Keep in mind that costs are fixed, they do not go up once you get to 80. Thus, as long as you keep you Crit up to keep pace with your Haste rating, Imp WS will do what it's supposed to.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Darian_TruBlade

My only concern with Imp WS is the need to continually rebuff Water Shield. It has more charges in the beta, but so long as it takes a GCD to rebuff there's an overhead to the additional regeneration.

 

Fodla

I agree. On current talents, it's not one i would take. I'd rather the passive mp5.

 

Negg

Completely wrong, this might come as a surprise to a lot of people but Int will be our big stat in WotLK.

I made a Spreadsheet on int and assuming that the natures Blessing talent gives 15% spellpower (not +healing as it says atm) a 20 Int gem (epic gem) will give 9 mp5 from the manabataries (2,5% per 5sec), 1,5 mp5 from Mana tide (+glyph), 4 spellpower (Nature's Blessing), 13 crit rating (100 int= 1% crit = 52 crit rating) and 360 mana (BoK + Anc know) which is an other 3 mp5 on a 10 minute fight. All in all a 20 Int gem gets almost 50 item budget points, where the other gems have 20. 2,5 Times as effective, so if you're looking for mp5, go Int.

Only downside to Int is that you do not get haste, but with haste on gear + wrath of air + spellhaste auras + Tidal Waves we'll probably see enough spells cast and a mana shortage. So until you have more mana then you can use, Int will be the #1 stat.

side note: This doesnt mean Shamans benefit the most from Int, other healers actualy benefit from from Int then we do; Pallies love crit even more, divine plea is 3mp5 per 20 int and they get 35% int -> spellpower and spirit based healers see their mana regen through spirit go up by adding int, but seen how shamans are the least mana efficient healers out there, we'll probably need the Int (and its mp5) the most.

 

Jessamy

Perhaps I used the wrong search terms, if this has alrady been discussed, advance apologies.

I was playing with the talent calculator on the official Blizzard site when I noticed the mana costs are not % of base mana, but actual mana costs:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

I'm not sure if this has been true all along, perhaps I have been seeing the x% of base mana costs when I look at the talent tree on third party sites like mmo-champion:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=

Does anyone know if the official site's talent calculator has always been as it is now? If not, does this mean Blizzard is reconsidering their plans for downranking?

Allium - Draenei Shaman
Jessamy - Draenei Priest

Look at my hoof! Does this crack look infected to you?

 

Pheroz

There is no evidence blizzard is reconsidering their plans for downranking. The official blizzard talent calculator has alays been updated at much slower intervals then 3rd party talent calculators. You're just seeing a disconnect between the blizzard development team, and the blizzard web maintenence team.

 

Saxe1978

The last message which I saw, was 3 charges, nerf or an additional glyph ?


Btw. all Gylph's are freaky o.O

 

Lasie