WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 104

Darian_TruBlade · 09/29/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Voxx

The other option with the current implementation of Recklessness (bugged or not) is that you can still use two of your three charges and maintain the 100% crit for the remainder of the ability's duration. So if you use Recklessness just after a BT immediately followed by Whirlwind, you could get 4.5 seconds of 100% crits at no limitation to your rotation (bar Slam/Heroic Strike) and then maintain the last charge until the very end of the buff.

In any case, it need some tuning I think.

Here's how I would do it.

Assuming a 1.5 second GCD from actually using the ability, you hit your first WW immediately at 1.5 seconds. Hold onto Bloodthirst until around 9-9.5 seconds, then hit WW as soon as its CD is up. Perfectly executed you'll hit your second WW at 11.5 seconds, which is still in the scope of the buff, and you only lose .5 seconds. We can assume you won't execute it perfectly, but so long as you have reasonable lag you should be able to get it, and you're nearly guaranteed to have an instant Slam to follow it up.

I really hope Blizzard keeps it this way. Ultimately I doubt the PvE application will be what does it in so much as how large an effect it will have on PvP. Then again, trying to get away with 12 seconds of +20% damage isn't likely in high end Arenas.

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/29/08, 7:57 PM

Soon(tm) we'll have an easy, flexible simulator. I'm at the warrior part right now. That means calculation the right stats with talents and stuff, setting up the skills and most importantly when to use them.
Things I need to know and don't want to search for three hours:
- Combat ratings at 80?
- How does Ignore Armor work now? Applied before or after debuffs?
- Common boss armor at 80?
- Glancing works the same?

Beverley · 09/29/08, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I really hope Blizzard keeps it this way. Ultimately I doubt the PvE application will be what does it in so much as how large an effect it will have on PvP. Then again, trying to get away with 12 seconds of +20% damage isn't likely in high end Arenas.

Definately agree, I dont think people realise how good having the use of a recklessness and a shieldwall will be in an arena. Obviously they are tuned down but you now have the possibilty of critting a whirlwind, a mortal strike and a bloodthirst coupled with some autos, maybe even a swordspec proc, all within 3 seconds. That is insane in an arena, I dont expect it last :p

Greysir · 09/29/08, 8:03 PM

So a question on the present version of Enrage. This was asked a page or so back but I don't think it was really answered. It was changed to proc "after being the victim of a damaging attack". Blizzard has historically been bad at wording their tooltips, so I won't interpret it literally

Someone showed a screenshot of enrage proc'ing off of environmental damage, but what about aoe? Think Sunwell bosses like Kalecgos (aoe shadowbolt), Felmyst (ongoing dot), etc. If those proc enrage then it is actually a useful pve talent in raids, assuming Blizzard keeps up with the idea of tons of raid damage going around.

Has anyone tried testing to see if non-direct damage spells would proc it? I'm going to try to test various combos tonight if I can find a few folks to help test via duels (figure a mage and lock for arcane explosion and dots). But thought I'd post in case someone has already tried different situations..

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/29/08, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Greysir

So a question on the present version of Enrage.[...]

Has already been answered... Enrage procs from everything.

Liar · 09/29/08, 8:12 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Soon(tm) we'll have an easy, flexible simulator. I'm at the warrior part right now. That means calculation the right stats with talents and stuff, setting up the skills and most importantly when to use them.
Things I need to know and don't want to search for three hours:
- Combat ratings at 80?
- How does Ignore Armor work now?
- Common boss armor at 80?
- Glancing works the same?

I think point 1 and 2 are covered extensively here: Combat Ratings at level 80 (Point 1 atleast). Can't help you with the latter two.

renegar · 09/29/08, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dots

Shield Block increases block value by 100%, that means it will indeed be 230% with Shield Mastery and not 260%. Same with meta gem etc.
Critical blocks double the blocked amount, if you happen to have Shield Block up as well, it will be 400% of your normal block value (460% with Shield Mastery).

Did some testing of my own on beta, this is indeed how it works.

Greysir · 09/29/08, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Has already been answered... Enrage procs from everything.

Ah, my bad. Must've missed it.. thanks!

Darian_TruBlade · 09/29/08, 8:33 PM

Enrage does not proc from DoT ticks in the current PTR build. Any DD AoE, such as Netherspite's aura or Shadow Bolt Volley, will proc it.

I tested this by running around Quel'Danas for about an hour last night fighting the Dawnblade. No Immolate or Judgement DoT ticks caused Enrage to refresh or proc.

Nezralix · 09/29/08, 11:01 PM

For anyone who may have feedback, I put together a fairly long report on how I think rage isn't really living up to its potential and posted it on the beta forums:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Why rage is TERRIBLE (and how to fix it):

PSGarak · 09/30/08, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Enrage does not proc from DoT ticks in the current PTR build. Any DD AoE, such as Netherspite's aura or Shadow Bolt Volley, will proc it.

I tested this by running around Quel'Danas for about an hour last night fighting the Dawnblade. No Immolate or Judgement DoT ticks caused Enrage to refresh or proc.

Have you tested DoT applications? They usually count as an offensive attack for the caster, although sometimes not a damage attack, when there's a distinction being made. I'm not sure there's precedent for the target.

Graul · 09/30/08, 12:30 AM

As promised, here are a few dps changes. There will probably be a few more over the next few days.

Fury

Unending Fury changed to increase damage of Slam, Whirlwind and Bloodthirst by 2/4/6/810% (it no longer offers a rage discount).

Arms

Sudden Death now grants 10 rage, so that following the Execute you have 10 rage left over. In the course of testing this, we also decided Execute by itself wasn't doing enough damage, so it got a buff too (could be around +15%), which will also help the talent.

Bladestorm breaks roots and snares when initially used. It doesn't break other forms of CC, largely because we suspect that if it did, that functionality in PvP would overshadow the actual cool whirlwindy part.

Strength of Arms now grants 2%/2%/2 Str/Sta/Expertise per point. (Still 2 points total.)

Definitely on the right track.

Mild Confusion · 09/30/08, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

For anyone who may have feedback, I put together a fairly long report on how I think rage isn't really living up to its potential and posted it on the beta forums:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Why rage is TERRIBLE (and how to fix it):

I never realized how many warrior talents are either directly or indirectly based on rage conservation and efficiency.

Prinsesa · 09/30/08, 12:59 AM

They've specifically changed BT so you need a melee weapon to use it so you will get the TG penalty applied to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't BT always affected by the TG penalty? My impression was that adding the weapon requirement was just to make it perfectly clear that the penalty was applying. It already was before the change, but the lack of the requirement was misleading.

Nezralix · 09/30/08, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by Mild Confusion

I never realized how many warrior talents are either directly or indirectly based on rage conservation and efficiency.

There are a number of them. There are actually some more that have rage efficiency as a major contributor: Second Wind, Shield Specialization, and Sword and Board.

Graul · 09/30/08, 1:02 AM

Bloodthirst was not affected by weapons until after this change. You could Bloodthirst without any weapons up until now.

Darian_TruBlade · 09/30/08, 2:07 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Have you tested DoT applications? They usually count as an offensive attack for the caster, although sometimes not a damage attack, when there's a distinction being made. I'm not sure there's precedent for the target.

I haven't. I couldn't get a Warlock or a Priest to help me, so I rand around Quel'danas getting the Dawnblade to throw that Judgement up on me and then quickly dispatching them. I did this for about a half hour. It seems to function exactly the same way as Reckoning.

I also tested to see if it stacked with Death Wish, and it doesn't. I find that saddening but not unexpected.

Lithose · 09/30/08, 2:42 AM

I really hope taste for blood is made more consistent, right now, I can't see touching it, it feels awful and clunky to use, mostly as a by-product of our stance system.

Speaking of which, the post on rage is excellent. Rage really needs to be "tuned", the formula for rage contains average expected gains and modifiers for damage gains. Normal white main hand hits need to go up in average gain (Modifier increase, to.) and crits need to come down. When you're hitting something, rage needs to feel more consistent, its extremely agitating that our resource pool is so prone to the RNG, a little is fine, managing rage better because you got a dodge is cool, but right now, the difference is too much.

Also, our disarm protection really needs to be more accessible. It should not be past the 20 point mark, it should be somewhere that every "deep" spec can take it as a choice, while not giving up their 51 point talent. Disarm should be a choice between lower talents, not upper vs lower.

Gruntle · 09/30/08, 4:20 AM

The change to Unending fury makes me happy, not a very fun talent but at least it's good.

My calculations on Recklessness did of course not assume that white attacks during the buff would be crits. If that's not a bug, the new Recklessness is perfectly fine. It's certainly not overpowered for PvE, and I honestly don't think it'll be game breaking in the arenas either (you may very well end up being cc'd for most of the time it's up anyway, and resilience counteracts it slightly).

Graul · 09/30/08, 4:45 AM

Napkin math puts each point of UF at around a 0.8% - 0.75% increase to total DPS. Closer to 1% - 1.1% after Impale, Deep Wounds and two-handed weapon spec are added. This also makes the talent seem a lot like the old two-handed weapon spec, but at the bottom of the Fury tree.

Darkrenown · 09/30/08, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

Bloodthirst was not affected by weapons until after this change. You could Bloodthirst without any weapons up until now.

That's true, but Prinsesa's point was BT was affected by the TG miss penalty before it was changed to require a weapon. All the change did was stop you BTing when disarmed. If they really just wanted to make the tooltips clearer they could have made it say "-15% hit on all attacks dealing yellow damage" rather than changing BT.

Bronwyn · 09/30/08, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Strength of Arms now grants 2%/2%/2 Str/Sta/Expertise per point. (Still 2 points total.)

I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly Ghostcrawler wants to tell us here.

2% Strength per point = 6% strength per 400 Armor? That sounds ridiculous.

Will we get 2% strenght for the first point, 2% stam for the the next and 2 ? Expertise for the last one? (Is a % missing here or does she actually mean 2 points of expertise)

Finally, the talent always said ( per 400/360 armor if wearing plate armor). Now this would, if you wore 12.000 armor, increase your strength by 60%. Or will they reword it to: "2% if you wear only plate armor / 2% if the majority of your items is plate armor."

Now my misunderstanding of Ghostcrawler's utterance here may be totally wrong, since English happens to be my second language. So I would be extremely grateful for thoughts on this issue.

Herb · 09/30/08, 6:38 AM

Can Vigilance be used as a self-buff (for soloing or DPSing in a group)?

gia · 09/30/08, 6:40 AM

You are mixing up Strength of Arms and Armored to the Teeth, they are two different talents. What she is saying is that it will give 1% str/sta/exp for 1 point and 2% str/sta/exp for 2 points.