Graul

I don't understand why your Deep Wounds contribution keeps coming out so low. I could understand a slight drop, but a 50% drop?

 

dr_AllCOM3

Add a bleed debuff, those minor buffs/debuffs aren't in yet.

 

Shha

Do you add talent buffs twice too? Like 2h Spec or Wrecking Crew apply twice to deep wounds (so 12.4% and 21% respectively )

 

Gellor

Would it be fair to say Savagery would in fact be 84 AP ((70 x 10%) x10%) for Imp zerker stance and Kings so in fact would be 57 (adjusted the agi of Mongoose to 132 for kings) vs 42. Also not sure how you would factor in the slight increase to BT damage from the AP gain which is always present, which should bring the 2 enchants even closer together. I suspect the dps variance between the 2 enchants is going to be pretty negligible, but I've always had a preference for the static benefit on my OH weapon with regards to mongoose.

 

Polishedhead

Kings doesn't effect attack power, don't you mean Unleashed Rage?


Anyway i'm pretty sure his itemization values are calculated before such buffs, since he doesn't add 10% for kings to agility, which it does effect.

Also don't forget that Haste Potions and Heroism/Bloodlust (once every 5 minutes now!) is going to increase the uptime on Mongoose at the times you're doing most DPS.

 

dr_AllCOM3

I haven't continued with Deep Wounds, since it apparently changed with the latest patch. It's damage is not modified by anything so far.


Seems like I should do weapon enchants soon .


I thought about it. It's easy to do, but not really high on my list.

 

Bronwyn

DrAllcom, could you implement a way to manually edit stats? (Sorry if there is one already which I haven't yet found.)

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Alleria/79591.jpg

 

Shha

Well im comparing the typical spreadsheet value of stats with Agi at 0.63 str, and haste 0.95-1.05 depending on testing. That already counts the imp zerker and kings in it.

so 32 str always or 120x0.63+42 = 117 +/- 10 depending on how you value haste.

 

Shha

How did it change? Didnt notice anything yet.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Someone mentioned it a few pages ago. I didn't notice anything either.

 

Oakenshield_Drenden

So what have you all learned re: Tanking weapons in the new world?

Old logic said you find a weapon that had the best balance of speed and dps, looking for something in the 1.6 to 1.8 range. Given that threat and rage seem to not be issues as much any more, does that say go for highest dps now? Or should we still stick with faster weapons to maximize use of abilities etc.

Interested in your experiences in the beta and test realms...

 

Voxx

My calculations in that post were a bit off and very rough, I made another post a little while ago basically saying that if you really want to be sure, definitively, which is better you'd have to do a very extensive model or simulation of the two specs.

 

Liar

No changes from what I know. Also your logic seems a little off. If threat was fine then why would you want to even use a higher DPS weapon when it's not needed? Logically you'd use a mitigation weapon.

That said, I am going to stick with a fast weapon that also happens to have good DPS: [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade]. The expertise and the fast speed to dump Heroic Strikes are just too good to pass up on.

Protection Warrior PvP video | Unexpected TankPoints error

 

Voxx

Well here's the fruits of several hours of my weekend.

I did some rather extensive modeling of Axe Spec vs Sword Spec and turned it into a raw dps number using information based off Sepulture's screenshot a couple pages back.

Things I took into consideration: Flurry uptime, PPM increases, RED, ratio of white dps to yellow dps, crit modifier on ability bonuses (i.e Mortal Strike 210 bonus, Imp MS 10% bonus). If you want a full blow by blow detail of what I did and how I got to these numbers send me a personal message because the math behind it is somewhat confusing due to my thought process.

Long story short, Axe Spec comes out ahead... way ahead. I thought it would be relatively close, and it was, until I factored in the 5% crit damage bonus that Axe Spec gives.

Axe Spec dps increase: 8.738%
Sword Spec dps increase: 3.478%

So yeah, Axe Spec is now far and away the best weapon spec. I did some quick modeling of Mace spec but it just doesn't have as much synergy as Sword or Axe do and it doesn't really come close, especially not with the ArP changes upcoming.

 

Russta

Is there anything specific that's making everyone have such difficulty deciding what the best enchants will be come Tuesday? So far we've had Executioner/Mongoose, Mongoose/Mongoose, Mongoose/Savagery and Executioner as fallen off the face of the planet.

 

Enkidu

The change was mostly in its representation, previously old deep wounds stacks would roll out doing full ticks for their duration (or something else to that effect in order to explain ~2.3k deep wound ticks self buffed on a dummy with a fast OH in the previous build), now it seems to fragment each time a new one is added, if you had 3 ticks for 100 damage left and you crit again now you get 6 ticks of 50 along with the new damage (at a glance, I haven't really measured how it behaves).
I can't find any other reason that would render me unable to reproduce anything over 1.5k ticks in hours of testing when ~2k was so easy before (only gear change was a tank weapon OH -> DPS fist OH of the same speed), while at the same time keeping deep wounds at up to 23% of my damage.

As said, the damage contribution remains same. The other facts about Deep Wounds are still correct:
It doesn't proc from offhand WW crits.
It uses MH damage range regardless of the crit source.
I read previously in this thread execute gives you deep wounds based on its own damage, I don't know about the previous build but in the current one this is false, ~110 ticks from the OH ~110 ticks from the MH and ~110 ticks from execute, it all uses the same damage range.

 

Tankietka

If anyone's is interested in some simulationcraft, I've decide to publish my simulator. You can find more info here: DPS Simulator.

Talents and abilities are implemented as of last beta/ptr build from mmo-champion.

 

mistersix

It was my understanding that exe was remaining as is in that it's still armor ignore and not being changed to armor penetration rating. Given that, there's no reason it should be "fallen off the face of the planet." It was my understanding that mongoose was the red-headed stepchild now since it simply won't proc often enough to warrant it. Some people challenge that argument by saying if you get below 2.5 speed via raid buffs then it's still good.

On an unrelated note, I've been noticing an odd trend in tanking gear. There's just not simply a lot of new items with block value and expertise on the same piece. More often than not expertise is getting paired with +parry instead. Take a peek here for examples. I worry about the loot drama this might lead to between prot warrs and dks.

 

Shha

Assuming you talk about Titans Grip. Ill give you a quick approximation I used. I have more complicated modelling but lets see the simple version:

a) With more crit in general , and slower weapons + Incite, Flurry Uptime is about 100%, and any changes due to mongoose proc arent really meaningful here.

b) There is no Impale or Deep Wounds.

So basically crit only affects our damage, and everything we have crits at 2.06 damage with ReD.



Executioner

a) We talk about 6200 armor bosses with -2600 /-610 armor debuff and 15% armor pen.

2990 base armor - 15% = 2541 19.4% reduction 80.6% damage taken
2990 base armor - 840 = 2150 -15% = 1827.5 14.8% reduction 85.2% damage taken

85.2%/80.6% damage taken = 5.7% damage increase.


Mongoose

Mongoose Effect = 4.4% crit 2% haste

Assuming 50% raid buffed crit (not hard with double sharpening stone/lotp/improved SOE/mob debuff and 20% haste

Mongoose effect = (54.4*2.06+45.6)/(50*3.06) = 3% increase due to crit

Assuming White+Heroic damage is 75% of your damage, 2% haste gives 1.5 increased damage.

4.5% increased damage is worse then 5.7 from executioner. However 2nd executioner would only give around 50% uptime increasem which would reduce it below 4% increae in daamge. So double Executioner loses to Executioner/Mongoose.



Savagery 84.5ap (2x 10% increase) = ~6dps on both weapons. Given approximate 425 dps raid buffed you can rougly estimate it gives 1.5% non BT increase. BT increase is a bit higher - in the realm of just below 2%. Still its worse then both Mongoose and Executioner.


With my stats Exe/Mongoose still wins.



Adamantite Sharpening Stones vs Elemental ones. Another interesting dilemma. 14 crit rating or 12 weapon damage. 14 crit rating = ~0.61 crit%. 0.61crit % with stats above = ~0.4% dmg increase. 0.4% damage increase requires hits of average damage higher then 3000 to outperform 12 weapon damage. I dont think average HIT with 50% crit rate will be higher then 2000 - especially factoring OH , so Adamantite stones still win - even with slower swing of 2h.

 

Machinator

What do you mean by apply twice? 2H spec is 6% more to the avg hit, and then increases the damage of deep wounds by 6% after that? or something else?

"Information is ammunition."

 

Oakenshield_Drenden

Thanks. Only reason to use a higher dps weapon would be to do more dps. I've got a good mitigation weapon but not a good high dps weapon that is also fast.

 

Graul

This is completely anecdotal, but just to "compare" both specs I went ahead and beat on a dummy for 30 minutes as Axe spec with a BoH that had Savagery. I ended up sustaining 1986 over the duration. Without even respeccing I decided to try out my Cat's that had Exe on it. Over the same amount of time there was approximately a 65 DPS difference favoring the Axe without respeccing. To see if the test was just fubar due to ArP I went ahead and tried it again by filling in empty GCD's with a Sunder to keep a five stack up. This time Cat's pulled ahead (still as Axe spec). While not scientific at all, it seems like at least that the weapon may be better than a BoH but I'm not sure if the enchant is playing a large part in it or not.

Not sure where the disparity is coming from for me. The dummy was lvl 70 not "??" because I can't seem to find them in the beta anymore just 60, 70, 80 and "??" that are 80. This is also before SD is changed from crit to hit.

 

• landsoul

The ?? dummy acts also as a 73 boss, because that's how I thought it worked. I thought it just has a higher armor value, but the same characteristics of a boss to a level 60, 70, and 80 player respecti