WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 16

Nezralix · 07/22/08, 10:41 AM

Sorry to be a broken record, but has anyone figured out the AP scaling coefficient on Thunderclap? It seems like even a small coefficient could yield some decent results with the talent that doubles its damage.

Morsexy · 07/22/08, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by nakoda

quick question: are they making raid mobs stunnable again?

I ask because of the new DMG aspect to Revenge, and Shockwave. Also, is Conc Blow getting a threat buff (I don't think so but some how that question got buzzed inside my brain and it will not go away till I ask someone)?

I tried to find the link, but I was sure I saw that Conc Blow was being changed to AP based as well as causing additional threat even if the target does not get stunned, as well as being placed on a shorter ( 30? ) cooldown timer.

Darmon · 07/22/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Morsexy

I tried to find the link, but I was sure I saw that Conc Blow was being changed to AP based as well as causing additional threat even if the target does not get stunned, as well as being placed on a shorter ( 30? ) cooldown timer.

Now it's in official beta talents published by Blizzard

World of Warcraft Europe -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Wrath of the Lich King Beta Talent Calculator

check the tooltips on Conc Blow

Shha · 07/22/08, 11:02 AM

Well there was a lot of things said since my last post. Its sort of repost of what I said earlier, but I think especially with the WF changes it needs a refresh.

My motion is simple: Move BF to Fury tree, and make it work with 2h weapons ONLY. The SD builds are clearly more damage then Bloodsurge right now, and BF/Trauma is too important to otherwise allow 2h use. A switch of BF would make all the builds viable again.

1x2h - A no slam rotation (impossible to do otherwise due to new WF). Advantage: Weapon spec/2h spec maxed, Almost the same white damage as TG (actually math shows the same), Higher instants damage, beside WW. Lower WW damage then TG and lack of 1 weapon for stats. Has BF/Trauma

2x2h - A normal TG build, behind the 1h builds in terms of personal dps but with bf and trauma

2x1h - 29/42 = highest personal dps but no BF/Trauma (they only work with 2h).

I dont see a balance possible otherwise, because :

a) BF builds will take precedence, due to much less dps loss then pre-bc vs fury builds.

b) For the rare instances of 2nd dps warrior slot, 2x1h vs 2x2h will always be unbalanced one way or another - its impossible to make them really even. And there will be no tradeoff otherwise.

Decapitation · 07/22/08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pedaw

Arms does crap damage theres your help.

yes and it is really sad that I cant raid without salvation, even with salvation I am reaching tank in threat while being way under other dpsers...

Deathwing · 07/22/08, 11:21 AM

BF and Trauma being in the Arms tree feels very similar to Hunting Party and Expose Weakness in the Survival tree. I don't know many people of either class that primarily PvE's and wants to spec into those trees. And the few I do know, I wouldn't trust to get those talents(i.e. people that come to raids pvp specced, continually).

I don't know enough about hunters, but I feel that the fury tree will definitely have enough variety to satisfy anyone's playstyle. I agree, Shha, BF and Trauma don't really feel like they belong in those trees. I'm considering switching back to my warrior for the expac(can't even decide if i want to tank or dps, my guild has been kind enough to offer both), but I am dread choosing between a boring dps build and BF/Trauma, or something exciting in Fury.

Alysana · 07/22/08, 11:43 AM

The majority of players in raiding guilds however rarely got the luxury you seem to have. To be quite frank, mostly it's "Bring BF or go home" I/we hear from the guild leaders. The thing Shha suggested was to make several builds viable instead of just being forced to play this one spec because your guild only wants you for your Blood Frenzy. I also think your comparison was a bit unfair, if we go into details we have Arms for supreme PvP spec, unfortunately it's also -the- PvE spec as it is thanks for Blood Frenzy which is silly, we have Prot for PvE tanking obviously, and where does that leave Fury? Currently Fury is "useless", a play-around-solo-spec as I see it where as Hunters use two talent trees for PvE and one or several more for serious PvP. Now when the beta invites are out and more and more people enter the beta, I hope Blizzard will get enough feedback about the warrior talents to at least consider moving BF and possibly Trauma over to Fury, so we have Arms = PvP, Fury = PvE dps and Prot = PvE tanking as it should be.

Deathwing · 07/22/08, 12:34 PM

I realize I have a rare luxury, that's why I don't want to waste it. I believe the point of my comparison was both classes have trees that are boring and sub-par to play in certain roles(pve) but have obvious benefits to the raid. Given, there is very little playstyle difference between Survival and Marks compares to Arms and Fury...I mean, unless you REALLY love traps.

More about the dagger Sudden Death build. I was doing some math, turns out the crit break-even point is:

c = DAPS/AAPS*.05/(DAPS/AAPS - 1)

Where AAPS = Axe Attacks per Second and DAPS = Dagger Attacks per Second

So, it looks like itemization will be key. Current epic itemization puts dps daggers minimum at 1.4s. OH axes go down to 1.5s, and mainhand axes are 2.6s if you use a dps axe, 1.6s if you use a tank axe. There will be green 1.3s daggers in the expac, and perhaps even swords should be considered since there are 1.4s dps and tanking swords currently.

If you use 1.6s MH axe and 1.5s OH axe, your crit rate would have to be over 51.66% in order to see positive returns JUST from sudden death. Be mindful of that last statement. I am only analyzing weapon speed and crit rate difference on how often you can use sudden death, not how it will affect the rest of dps. With 2.6/1.5 axes compared to 1.4/1.4 daggers, crit rate needed will be 15.76%. Up at around typical raid buff crit rates(33%), you'll be getting 24% more Sudden Death procs from that last comparison.

Ultimately, will need a spreadsheet modified to make a more complete analysis, but depending on itemization, the benefit might be there.

Darian_TruBlade · 07/22/08, 1:32 PM

Have any warriors in the beta tested to see if non-instant Slams still reset the GCD? With Steady Shot no longer clipping auto shots, and Hammer of Wrath reportedly not resetting Paladin swing timers, it would be nice to have confirmation.

Liar · 07/22/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Muggins

This is true, but its only movement toward a hostile target which you can't always bank on, whereas heroic leap is movement anywhere irrelevant of target. So While theorectically you're getting more movement out of imp intercept in practice it won't always be viable making them much closer or perhaps edging more towards HL depending on the fight in question(heigan or alar for example).

HL is acting somewhat strange atm. In the Alpha I could choose where to jump via an AoE target cirle, now in Beta it will emulate some sort of weird combo of Blink and Intercept. If you have nothing targeted, it behaves like Blink and makes you jump to the front. If you have a target, it will try to jump to that target like Intercept. I really don't know which version I prefer more yet, the only problem with the new HL I see is that you will have to target yourself in Arenas, then use it just to emulate Blink as escape mechanism. If you forget to untarget your current target you will get LoS issue and it fails. Seems overly complex for me, IMO.

Alysana · 07/22/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Have any warriors in the beta tested to see if non-instant Slams still reset the GCD? With Steady Shot no longer clipping auto shots, and Hammer of Wrath reportedly not resetting Paladin swing timers, it would be nice to have confirmation.

I'm being told by friends that were in the alpha that non-instant Slams wont reset your swing timer, in other words it'll work exactly how Steady Shot will if it goes through.

Unfortunately the character copy page is down in EU so they can't confirm how it's currently working in the open beta.

Darkrenown · 07/22/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Have any warriors in the beta tested to see if non-instant Slams still reset the GCD? With Steady Shot no longer clipping auto shots, and Hammer of Wrath reportedly not resetting Paladin swing timers, it would be nice to have confirmation.

It was confirmed earlier that non-instant slams are still resetting it.

I've not been dps in ages, is Deep Wounds reseting before ticking still a problem on live? If so, has anything been changed in beta?

Shha · 07/22/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

BF and Trauma being in the Arms tree feels very similar to Hunting Party and Expose Weakness in the Survival tree. I don't know many people of either class that primarily PvE's and wants to spec into those trees. And the few I do know, I wouldn't trust to get those talents(i.e. people that come to raids pvp specced, continually).

I don't know enough about hunters, but I feel that the fury tree will definitely have enough variety to satisfy anyone's playstyle. I agree, Shha, BF and Trauma don't really feel like they belong in those trees. I'm considering switching back to my warrior for the expac(can't even decide if i want to tank or dps, my guild has been kind enough to offer both), but I am dread choosing between a boring dps build and BF/Trauma, or something exciting in Fury.

For me its just a matter of playstyles not trees. I understand reasoning behind BF. Back in Naxx everyone and their dog was 17/34 Fury dual wield. In fact I was MT most of it as that spec (good old times). So Blizzard in BC made prot tree more needed/viable (i remember back in days prot only really offered extra aggro which really wasnt needed on most stuff - extra "survival skills" were basically toughness block talents and last stand - thus the sometimes hybrid builds if one had to tank patchwerk or so). They also gave BF to arms to diversify dps builds.

So far so good, that all made sense. However the real life corrected it. BF didnt diversify builds really - it rather pigeonholed warriors into taking it. Trees aside - warriors got forced now to play with 2h, just as in Naxx they dual wielded.
Thats why I think BF needs to be rethinked.

One way - less drastic would be of course to reduce BF effectiveness so it doesnt become a "no brainer". Right now picking BF comes at hefty dps cost - comparable to survival hunters. Its fine honestly - I actually think most guilds put too much stress on a buff that gives 4% damage - If you do the math, for lets say other warriors (best example for THIS topic), BF is far on the usefulness chart. As dual wield fury I get most from Shaman buffs (duh), Then survival hunter, recklessness/faerie fire, Pally buffs etc. After ALL that, far behind there is BF. In fact I think a strength totem alone gives me more dps then a BF warrior.

Overall it balances out. Like I said few times - little melee/lots of hunters = BF. Little melee/little hunters = Fury, Lots of melee = both dps warrior types. Works as intended. Granted warriors are getting sort of "bullied" into picking BF, but other raid leaders understand that its not as important. (There is one more thing often overlooked - an arms warriors adds TWO debuffs - MS and BF - Im not sure about your guild setups, but our dpsers often have to cut down on lower priority debuffs to conserve those slots. That slots alone are worth almost 100 dps each).

However Wotlk, DRASTICALLY reduces the penalty for picking BF. You still get max flurry, you still dual wield, you still have Bloodthirst and all the fury talents. You lose out on aggro reduction and some ap. Aggro might be important, but at the same time if it is, then adding BF to the tank nullifies half of the difference. So BF remains as effective, but at less dps costs. That disrupts any balance resemblance left.

So again, one idea would be to reduce BF effectiveness. However we come back to square one - the point of BF was to promote variety in warrior playstyles.

Right now BF FAILS at that completely. With the math behind the dps builds, you will end up dual wielding 1handers - in my opinion fast, but I wont be really doing math on it in THIS post. Dual wield 2x1h + press BT every 6 seconds, WW every 9, and sudden death in between. BF has NO IMPACT ON THAT. Both BF and no BF builds will play exactly like that - with the no-BF build having to press rampage every now and then.

BF in fury tree , but REQUIRING 2h weapon crits to work, will promote 2h in play.

The question I guess people could ask would be "But since BF would be in fury tree, wouldnt it even more force every warrior to pick it up and then use 2h?".

The answer is - it still will be more variety.

a) Need of 2h weapon will make BF warriors choose between TG build (no SD, instant slams) and 1x2h build (I dont think too viable atm due to WF totem change - unless they do something about WF (maybe change the haste for +20% damage buff)

b) Assuming even TG is only BF build - it solves the "lower TG" damage problem at least - and puts it at a good spot for warriors to pick. BF+TG or 2x1h for personal rogue-like damage.

P.S. The "nerf" to 1x2h builds caused by WF totem change seems pretty unrecoverable atm, but maybe someone will have some idea about it

Edit: Non Instant slams not reseting the swing timer would be pretty dumb change. THAT would completely obliterate any warrior rotations left. Slam is most effective dpr skill we have, So the basic build/rotation would be : TG + slams. with wf and TG nullifying itself, with decent haste/flurry it wouldnt be hard to get your weapon speed below 3.0 - so 2 slams per 2 white attacks would not only be best dpr but easy to execute too (press it twice, it goes off in 2 sec (1.5gcd+0.5sec) then 1 sec left on gcd is enough for white to go off etc). I dont think anything would come close, and warrior dps would change into spamming "2" aka slam button and autoattacking.

◊ Merple · 07/22/08, 3:01 PM

I would really like to think that some sort of 1x2h PVE play will still be possible, but I'm getting the feeling that "Roll DK/Retadin" will be the answer to that, which is too bad, I guess.

Graul · 07/22/08, 4:20 PM

Aggro might be important, but at the same time if it is, then adding BF to the tank nullifies half of the difference.

So you're saying that a 4% increase in physical damage will cover at least a 10% threat gap even though the physical damage properties of threat moves are not 100% of a tanks threat? BF doesn't even come close to removing the disparity between (or half for that matter) taking all of the threat reducing talents in Fury and none.

◊ Fellwraith · 07/22/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

So you're saying that a 4% increase in physical damage will cover at least a 10% threat gap even though the physical damage properties of threat moves are not 100% of a tanks threat? BF doesn't even come close to removing the disparity between (or half for that matter) taking all of the threat reducing talents in Fury and none.

It's also worth noting that a sudden death build will only work if they remove the 125% threat modifier on execute. Otherwise you're going to be in serious trouble threat-wise.

Nolanhadhoof · 07/22/08, 5:50 PM

Can bladestorm be used while stunned? It looks like it will prevent stuns when activated, but breaking a five point kidney shot would be even more convenient.

Zaroua · 07/22/08, 7:01 PM

Has there been any info on how mob armor is scaling in the beta? Do mobs still use the BC formula?

And more importantly, how will the new "Fractured" gems [Fractured Scarlet Ruby] play out for Warriors? I can certainly see them being a potential filler to bring down a boss' armor to 0 in the case of DPS Warriors. And how useful will it be compared to getting pure Strength gems for a tank's TPS - keeping the new Str > Block conversion in mind.

For reference, the new epic gems are +20str or +140ArP.

And finally I still haven't seen anything on the subject: does Mangle stack with Trauma? And if so, is it multiplicative or additive?

Deathwing · 07/22/08, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

It's also worth noting that a sudden death build will only work if they remove the 125% threat modifier on execute. Otherwise you're going to be in serious trouble threat-wise.

Way to rain on my parade. That sounds familiar now that you mention it, has execute always been that way?

Gruntle · 07/22/08, 7:19 PM

I don't really agree on your 3 proposed working builds Shha. I think there should be, as it is now, one build with BF where you trade personal dps for utility (currently BF slam/noslam builds) and one build with excellent personal dps (17/44 or variations thereof, deep fury in any case). For WotLK I'd then like to see two builds that work:
- BF+Trauma build building heavily on bleed damage. Variations would be either to go for Sudden death and 2 onehanders or go 1*2h and do slam sequences (but that might not work due to the WF changes as you say). This will anyway be the utility build for WotLK.
- Deep fury with TG. This should be the nr one personal dps build, purely because deep fury has all the other tools to do really well in dps. A BF+Trauma build wastes too many talent points on pvp talents to really compete. I really think that TG will be changed to do a lot better than what it is currently.

Deep fury with dual onehanders should not really be viable any longer (but for prot dps). The top-tier talents should be worth something, thus TG should really be needed. I'm not to keen on the 51 point talent in fury being a talent with more relevance for pvp than pve (even though it will be allrightish also for pve).

Graul · 07/22/08, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Deep fury with dual onehanders should not really be viable any longer (but for prot dps). The top-tier talents should be worth something, thus TG should really be needed. I'm not to keen on the 51 point talent in fury being a talent with more relevance for pvp than pve (even though it will be allrightish also for pve).

How many Warriors would consider Endless Rage worth something right now beyond maybe a situation in PvP where they are purposely ignored for rage starvation? Rampage is also the current top tier Fury talent, and while I'm not complaining about it and wouldn't skip it, it's still something that could have been improved upon, at least in the mechanical sense. I would rather it cost a little more rage if it could have simply been a castable buff even with a similar duration if they just wanted another rage dump.

I also agree with the sentiment that the current 17/44 playstyle with one handed weapons should not be "viable", but right now it's more viable than the current iteration of Titan's Grip.

Darkrenown · 07/22/08, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

Way to rain on my parade. That sounds familiar now that you mention it, has execute always been that way?

I did mention it a couple of pages ago, the last time a fast/fast SD build was discussed. I don't know if it's always been like that, but it has been since BWL was endgame.

torand · 07/22/08, 9:55 PM

I searched through this thread, and could not confirm nor deny if you are able to use Titan's grip to toss a two-hander in one hand, and a shield in the other. I am not sure if this would be good or not with the ridiculously slow swing time for rage generation, but I was just curious. Tanking with a two-hander just sounds like a lot of fun.