• landsoul

Regarding threat gen for offtanks in different specs other than protection as a warrior, from my own experience:

As mainly a fury warrior in raids, there has been plenty of opportunity for me to occasionally tank stuff, sometimes unintentionally, if another tank dies or pulls aggro. In DPS gear, its very easy to not only meet but sometimes outdo the threat per second values of a protection warrior with a shield in defensive stance. My survival rate however, was totally dependant on the amount of clutch heals I received, otherwise I was dead in 4-5 seconds. My concern is that when I did tank things in tank gear as a dps spec, there was absolutely no way for me to put out any threat whatsoever. My skills were too rage-expensive, and they didnt have enough bite because they didnt scale. I would do a third as much threat maybe less than if I was in DPS gear with a shield.

In the expansion, if you put a DPS warrior in tank gear, I fear there will be the same issue unless they make talents that are both desirable for dps while providing a tanking benefit while using tank gear.

 

Graul

Intensify Rage seems to be a talent completely designed around the idea of a DPS (Fury at least) spec having to off tank. Whether or not you choose to take it would be based on how often you are actually required to tank. I also don't see this much of a problem as a 17/46/8 build either, but that assumes TG isn't going to be used.

 

Uglesh

If you look at the homogenization of gear, you'll notice that you won't be gimped by putting on tanking gear... hell it might even be the same gear!!! haha

In TBC, tank gear is devoid of +STR.... meaning reduced AP. Fury warriors rely on high AP to generate the rage they need, and you don't have the low rage cost devastates or sheild slam like prot has to help. That is a why you are gimped in tank gear.

In WoTLK it looks like even prot warriors will be getting plenty of +STR. My thoughts after reviewing the notes and talent trees (and with eliminating crushing blows.... and making sheild block reactionary) are that we are essentially going to be able to mash our face on random keys and every 20 seconds block an "uber move".

Making DPS classes able to generate threat as well as prot is actually remarkably easy. The problem is going to be making it worthwhile to bring a prot warrior.... mind you, the way they are making us all the same class anyways I don't think it will matter. Lowest common denominator FTW!! haha

 

Longhorn

Eventually there may come to be a standard tanking spec, however right now the prot tree is so bloated we're unable to pickup all the talents for mitigation and threat.

I am looking at something similar to this for tanking.

What are others opinions on the essential tank talents that will be required come wrath?

 

Diamedes

Since all our threat moves are going to scale with AP this won't be nearly the problem it is now, also add in the fact that all warriors are getting defiance and shield slam threat won't be a problem. I think a fury or even MS war will have no problem tanking 5 mans and anything they have the gear for really but as far as raids go of course fury won't have the mitigation talents to tank raid bosses at least until they outgear them.

To add to this, furious resolve is giving fury 6% more stam and of course we'll have improved shouts so a fury war will have more hp than a prot war.

 

Darkrenown

On this note, has anything been said since the beta started? As I understand it they said during Alpha vigilance would be changed, but then when the Beta started it got changed to have the -threat. It seems odd they would change that if they plan to do away with it later. Hopefully that's not the only change it's getting and some bigger warrior overhaul is in the works, but has there been any confirmation on that?

 

Mumbles

Yes, but the way it was said doesn't seem like big changes.

"- We have more work to do on the Warrior, yes =) . Hang tight a bit longer." (source)

Best regards,

 

Densor

So, I've been working on a spreadsheet that calculates rough DPS for several warrior builds. It looks like shit, since I wasn't thinking properly when I started, and it isn't a finished product, or even a semi-finished product, at all. I think it actually produces correct numbers. I want to also say upfront that this is all theory, so I have to make a few assumptions in order to make things work properly. Rage is taken into account as an average usage and gain per second, which isn't too useful, but I think it is close enough.

So, I plugged in a 29/42 SD build and a 21/50 TG build. I then grabbed a warrior profile, started running numbers, trying to get some stats that are reasonable to expect at entry level WotLK raiding.

The SD build with (raid buffed) 4400 AP, 41% crit, 10% hit, capped expertise, no haste rating, mangle or trauma (not both), 15% damage mitigation from armor, and using 2 110 DPS 2.5 speed weapons resulted in 2305 DPS. I was using a Bloodthirst every 6 seconds, Whirlwind every 9 seconds, and Execute whenever it procced, not taking into account rage spikes, GCD's interfering with procs, double procs reducing the proc rate, or an internal CD.

The TG build with (raid buffed) 4400 AP, 33% crit, 16% hit, capped expertise, no haste rating, mangle or trauma (not both), 15% damage mitigation from armor, and using 2 143 DPS 3.5 speed weapons resulted in 2398 DPS. I added 4% hit in exchange for 3% crit, as I figure TG will want more hit than crit so that fewer misses interrupt the damage cycle. Obviously, the itemization will have to support it, but this is all theory, so I can ignore the itemization stuff for now. I was using a perfect Slam rotation cycling Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Rend after the Slams. Obviously, perfect execution of Slams is impossible, but this is theorycrafting and I just want to show how close the builds could be. I also assume you switch to Battle Stance after the Slam, Rend when the GCD is up, and switch back to Berserker Stance before your next swing.

Anyway, the huge gain from the TG build over the SD build is the ability to deal full DPS without generating extra threat, even if it produces less DPS in practice. I just figured I'd supply some numbers for people to look at.

I would also like some feedback on what things I may not have taken into account properly or at all. I pulled a rage generation formula from WoWWiki. I have no clue if I have Poleaxe Spec calculated correctly, as I am using it as a flat multiplier on crits, so a normal crit does 105% damage, a special does 126%. I'm calculating Deep Wounds as a permanent DoT that deals 5% of normalized weapon damage per second.

 

Deathwing

Heh, if only Deep Wounds did 5% weapon damage per second. I don't believe it's normalized, if that even matters. Deep Wounds does shit for damage because any crit will refresh duration AND reset the tick timer. Meaning, if you crit at 0s and then crit again at 2.5s, deep wounds won't do damage at 3s. You'll have to wait till 5.5s, and hope you don't crit again. If you want your true deep wounds damage, use this:

Deep Wounds Multiplier = (1 - crit)^(attacks per 3s)

Basically, that looks if you didn't get a crit in the last three seconds at any point in time. If so, deep wounds does damage.

I wouldn't use two 2.5s weapon for a SD build. 1.5s or faster for OH, and fast as you can get for MH(weapon type dependent it seems).

Coming from someone who built the first DPS warrior spreadsheet here, it is not easy work to just throw it together in a few hours. The only class that's harder is an enhancement shaman, and they went with a full-blown simulator. That's not to say you didn't get a lot of stuff right. I'd rather wait for the people that have up to date current models to modify their spreadsheets.

 

Morgo7h

It would be interesting to view the results of a simulation done in a variety of flavors (different values for duration, mainly) where we use a setup similar to a fire mage's "Rolling Ignite-" that is, how OP or not-OP would Deep Wounds become if it didn't reset so damn much, and/or if it stacked in a fashion similar to Ignite? I'm no DPS expert though, so it's probably just a crazy idea.

 

kharpalo

about sudden death.

could this talent offer some offtank viability when they remove crushing blows from the game in wotlk. Warrior wearing pvp gear would somewhat relate to being tier 2.5. Nowadays warrior sets got highstamina high armor resi to make you crit immune. Execute being on 125% threat. Battlestance with no passive threat reduces insane tps and possibly even insane dps as a added bonus

 

Densor

Okay, fixed a few issues with it. I'll have to do a bit more work to calculate Deep Wounds "correctly", but I'd much rather it get fixed to something useful. Changing the OH speed for the SD build to a 1.5 speed increased the DPS by a bit. However, it is still about 10 DPS behind the TG build.

The big problem I see with TG is how badly the cycle will be thrown off if you miss, which should lead to stacking hit more than in the SD build. Doing so costs crit or haste or some other stat, which sucks a bit. Of course with the SD build, hit is meaningless past the 9% for specials.

 

Deathwing

Battle stance has a passive 20% threat reduction. Even without that, defensive stance will have 45% increased threat, spamming execute will not make up that difference.

 

Tornaz

Sudden Death is slightly too deep into Ams to be of real interest. If it were 2 or 3 ranks easier to get, it would open up a range of possibilities, but at 28 deep, the options for using it are limited. It has the same problem the shaman talent "Elemental Devastation" has in live. The mathematics of the talent point balance work against it.


On another note, it strikes me that a 25/5/41 build could have excellent possibilities as a hybrid OT/DPS spec in WotLK. The synergy between Incite, Improved Heroic Strike, Focused Rage, Cruelty, Axe Spec, Impale, Vitality and Devastate seems to have quite some possibilities.

 

Uglesh

The problem with looking at OT spec's right now is that you can't look at it in a vacuum. The value of warriors as OT's (meaning someone who isn't completely useless if not MT) will depend on how strong the other 4 tanking classes are at doing DPS when not tanking. Furthermore, with raidwide shouts, there is only a need for 2 warriors total before you run out of synergies.

 

Hisstok

That seems to be the theme with all classes in wotlk, 2 of each one and then the rest can be anything else.

unfortunately in good guilds, the "rest" is just going to be rogues whos dps goes completely out of control with every buff in the book

 

Darkrenown

Speaking of your TG build, why did you leave out Bloodsurge? Wouldn't it be better than the points in 2H spec?

 

• landsoul

All this talk about hybrid tank builds does not make sense to me. Why would anyone wish to go into a pure hybrid talentset for a reason to still be able to do DPS when not needed to tank? You can't dps well in tank gear for one thing. The only thing I could think of that makes sense would be to tank in DPS gear and when your tank target is done you can go do mediocre DPS without key DPS talents.

If off-spec tanking is done at all by a warrior, it should be done by purist talent sets, such as Bloodfrenzy-DPS or Deep Fury-DPS without having protection talents waste the DPS potential. What needs to be done is talent homogenization, which means rolling tanking aids into DPS talents that people in these purist specs would pickup anyways. Also, we must keep them high enough in the tree so protection specced lpayers do not have access to these as well. For example, like this:

FURY (needs a little love, some proposal examples)
Furious resolve: Decreases threat in berzerker stance, increases stamina, increases dodge by X and reduces chance to be crit by X in defensive stance.

Rage talent in fury: increases rage gain from damage taken by 20%, also gain 15/30% chance upon avoiding an attack through miss, dodge, or parry, that next abilities will cost 5 less rage for 5 seconds.

ARMS (I think a good job is done here already)
Increases Stamina and Strength by 5%
Unrelenting Assault: Decreases revenge cooldown to 2s
Unleashed Rage: Increases rage gain from white by 25%

 

Elumako

Great ideas, to be sure... Instead, here's what they're doing when they say "we've still got some more work to do on the Warrior class":

Arms

* Bloodletting has been renamed to Improved Rend once again and doesn't increase the amount of damage caused by Bloodbath anymore.
* Fixed a typo in Second Wind, Stun or Immobilize effects generate 10/20 rage. (Old version ... 100/200 ^^)

Protection

* Shield Specialization now gives you a chance to generate 1 rage when a block occurs. (Old version : 2 Rage)

 

Tornaz

The idea (according to what statements we have from the development team) is that Warriors of any talent spec should have the ability to tank. What makes protection stand out is supposed to be its sheer durability. Threat is supposed to be more or less equivalent over all three talent trees.

The problem hitherto in BC with tank/dps hybridisation was that a number of essential tanking tools - Defiance, Shield Slam and Devastate - were only available to prot. The change to TM to include an increased threat component for BT and MS was an attempt to compensate for the lack of Devastate, but the problems of Defiance and Shield Slam were insurmountable.

With the current beta changes for WotLK, Warrior gearing becomes much more homogenised. Shield Block Value is apparently being phased out, and the STR:BV ratio is changing from 20:1 to 2:1. Expect much higher AP values for warrior tanks as a result - especially with Shield Bash and Concussion Blow moving to deal damage scaling with AP, and Shockwave also being AP based. With Sheild Slam trainable and Defiance's threat modifier baked into all Warriors Defensive Stance, a major reason for the BC problems for non-spec tanks vanish.

In addition, the higher AP of a prot warrior under WotLK will make BT and MS more viable (BT more than MS, as MS will still be hampered by weapon damage issues).



EDIT: Incidentally, having mentioned Shield Bash, it occurs to me to ask the following question: With the change to Shield Bash to scale with AP, has the inate threat modifier of Shield Bash changed, or does it still apply additional threat? (Yes, I realise how much of a pain this is to check)

 

muulan

I don't really see the supposed many new features given to protection warriors to increase survivability in WotLK. In fact our shield blocking was nerfed and now the skills to deal with rage starvation are being taken away too. Crit block does have potential but the rest of the skills are mediocre at best. Aoe tanking ability remains extremely weak while the other tank classes got all they need for single-target tanking. Don't even get me started about how underwhelming shockwave is for a 51.
No matter how hard they try to make hybrid warrior tanks, blizzard can't ignore the fact that hybrid warriors have no place in end-game raids. If a 25man wants an OT they'd bring a feral druid (who is much better at it due to the fundamental design of the class). This whole balancing of our class around 5man's will come back to bite us when people are done leveling to 80 and find that warriors are now a broken class with no viability in the min/max environment of end-game raiding. Such mistakes have been repeated over and over again with the shaman and pally (hybrid) classes patch after patch pre and post TBC. I had thought blizzard learned their lesson but apparently we are heading in the same doomed direction.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....53665HiXkH.png

 

Tornaz

One of the side effects of the itemisation changes to make prot value STR as a stat is that it compensates for the overgearing issue we've all suffered from in the past.

With STR gaining a significant boost in mitigation utility from its higher contribution to block value, and STR to AP affecting the damage and threat of 3 major threat abilities directly - shockwave, conc blow and shield bash, and the STR to BV affecting Shield Slam, it's evident that tanks will be desiring high STR gearing.

This in turn means that auto-attack damage output increases, and this white damage rage generation is significantly higher - meaning that warrior tanks now have a positive benefit from overgearing, compensating for the rage starvation effect to some degree.