Rishina

There was talk of making warrior shouts raid wide. Prot tanks don't have access to CP, which means you need 2x warrior for the BS and CS. 550AP and 2255 HP raid wide without CP at level 80 ( 687AP, 2818HP with CP ) If that change does go into effect I can see 3 warriors being taken. 1 tank, 2DPS for the shouts.

Ah, one thing about survivability. With bloodthirst regenerating 1.5% of max health per tick instead of flat amounts. Regenning 7.5% of your health every 6 seconds is going to help survive those encounters with heavy raid damage.

 

Shha

Not imp CS is just fine, not to mention right now t6 bonus offsets half of it (i know it will change - just pointing out that there will be items potentially impacting such things).

As for BT , its cool, but lets say on felmyst (i know its easy just an example) a dps warrior getting encapsulate is still probably worst person to get it. A rogue is the best one. Two melee classes, drastic difference.

 

Morsexy

This is the part that is near and dear to my heart. How are we still operating with 10% more damage taken in berserker stance? I mean, do away with the 3% crit, and adjust our crit gained from Agility or something if we must. A majority of the WoW community would say "L2play" or "L2stancedance" but at this point, its simply staggering what a rogue can do on a fight like Kil'jaedin with Cloak.

If theyre not going to give us a cloak like ability, and it seems hunters may get one as well, then they really need to do away with the 10% more damage.

As for PVP, it is unreal the amount of damage that can be done to you during a stun by a good team.

 

Katrael

Dunno about worst, I hit def stance when I get encap on felmyst, sure it trashes my DPS, but dying makes it a lot worse, and 10% reduced damage prolly makes me easier to heal than anything else in the raid that can't bubble/cloak/block out of it.

 

Morsexy

And what about on M'uru and KJ, where you and the raid is basically always operating at 75% health and you are BY FAR the class that will die first due to RNG burst.

RNG being all the time since during the entire encounter there is so much raid wide damage being thrown around. Frankly half of the skill of fighting M'uru Phase 2 as a DPS warrior is that awesome skill check of totally guessing when to use your Healthstone.

But sure, Beast Within, IcyVeins, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Fury, and any other I couldn't think of off the top of my head increases the damage taken by that class by 5%.

Its outdated, its not "balance". Just because at some point 4-5 years ago the round table discussion went "Well if tanks take 10% less damage, maybe we should make the opposite stance take 10% more" doesn't mean it is balanced, or quite frankly that 10% less damage is balanced either.

 

Katrael

I'm prot for side tanking on M'uru, and we haven't downed him yet. And I totally agree that the increased damage taken is something that needs to go away if more encounters feature the level of raid damage that sunwell has, I was just pointing out that targeted high damage attacks on DPS warriors we are actually more healable if there is the possiblity of reacting to the burst. General all the time AoE we are of course worst off.

 

Morsexy

Fair enough. I don't mean to jump down anyone's throat about this issue, but I am pretty sick and tired of this issue not being addressed. I'm not confident Blade Storm will be all that given no sweeping strikes or weapon mastery, but hopefully I am in the Beta soon to check it out.

 

Shha

I dont like the idea of removing 10% zerker penatly. I think it adds to variety in the game - something i care about. Id rather see one of 2

a) more USEFUL damage reducing moves, that dont rape our dps (defensive stance is ok - but lets say a shaman has even better damage reduction that doesnt lower his dps same time etc).

b) more base damage/utility - so warriors will actually be one if not highest dps class AT COST of the maintenance. Honestly warriors are pretty low "stackable class" , especially with bshouts changes, so I dont see a huge risk of raids stacking warriors if that happened.

 

Morsexy

I think they will never ever do that for a number of reasons.

1. This already happened, a fury warrior was tops on DPS and I thought it was pretty rock solid that given our status as the 'baseline' tank, we don't excel at anything currently except our ability to soak magic damage and panic buttons. By that I mean we can do anything we want to effectively.

2. If they did give us a damage reducing ability, nothing would change the fact that rest of the time this ability was on CD we would be in the same spot we are now.

I thought I had more but I didn't. The current Sprinkler system for raid damage aoe, it means we are by definition going to die at some point because Blizzard has to balance around a baseline health buffed raid, and there is no way they slot us more hitpoints, especially with the overly ludicrous Sunwell t6 with ZERO stam. I mean wasn't tBC supposed to be "Stamina hoooo"?. I feel just like when I was running around with my Titanic Leggins. And those leggings were a choice not the best gear in slot for every class. I mean what could the rationale for this possibly be, "Oh no! The only class that actively trades hitpoints for things like Rage and 3% more Crit, might use these pieces in arenas?

Another point is that this +-% modifier in our stances is a core concept of the game from the beginning. I understand that, but why does that make it sacred holy ground that we cannot change? As I said previously, perhaps both stances 10% modifiers need to be adjusted.

What is the use of Blade Storm if everyone just focuses us during that period since we will be taking 115.5% damage?

When I take a look at some of the spells available to death knights, and I know nothing is finalized, I see a spell in each tree that reduces damage through an on use ability. It is pretty obvious that abilities with cooldowns that are far better than defensive stance, is preferable in the current environment, otherwise why is every other class on a normal damage - short amazing reduction vs the current iteration of warrior constant + dmg, and choice of less damage and loss of core abilities for a static reduction in incoming damage.

 

outcast

I'm our guild's resident Fury warrior, and already in SWP I'm having huge issues justifying my raid spot. Playing as Fury basically means another warrior has to be Arms for BF, so I'd be the third warrior in the raid (counting one prot). As a result I've yet to see a Brutallus kill where I'm not required to be Arms. Also, my hitpoints have dropped from 13-14k raidbuffed to barely above 11k and I'm not even wearing all the T6.5 pieces yet - with all the raidwide damage flying around and abilities like Burn/Encapsulate I'm one of the squishiest targets in raid now with no Escape abilities besides a Healthstone. So it's not surprising that our raid would rather have a third rogue than a third warrior as Fury - it's the same dps (or more if threat is an issue) with much less maintenance and risk of dying.

The new WotLK talents look very interesting and exciting for themselves, but when viewed in raid context, the same consideration from SWP stays true. Why would you bring a third warrior as Fury over a third rogue if you can choose? With raidwide Shouts there's not even the tiny excuse of wanting a second Battleshout. We apparently gain no Escape ability like Rogues, the 10% from Zerker Stance seem to stick, and I can't see it happening that non-BF warriors will outdps rogues.

I don't understand Blizzard's reasoning. Prot is viable for 5mans and raids. Arms is the PvP spec. Any Arms/Fury spec is pretty undesirable for 5mans, and BF spec (which is mostly Arms) seems to be the raid dps spec. Why is pure Fury seemingly viable for nothing except personal enjoyment?

The most logical choice (aside from introducing new abilities) would seem to move BF into the Fury tree. Then all three warrior talent trees would have defined and desired roles, instead of Fury only being a gimmick.

 

Calgar

Outcast hit the nail on the head IMO. The new talents don't do anything to fix the underlying issues and from what we have seen so far have been pretty underwhelming. Titan Grip is the only thing that vaguely interests me, and from the theory crafting I've seen thrown around I'm not even convinced that double 2 handers is going to be viable.

First, and likely only, raid DPS warrior is looking to be a hybrid 37/34 (Trauma/precision/imp whirlwind) or 33/38 (BF/imp zerk stance) dependng on the theory crafting behind bleed damage and raid composition. Fury NEEDS some manner of raid DPS talent and/or a deep fury talent that lessens the 10% damage taken in zerk stance to even be considered a spot.

In my opinion furious resolve is a PERFECT place for the zerk stance changes. Change the 2/4/6% more stamina to "Reduces the damage penalty from Berzerk stances by 3/7/10%". I mean, that's what the talent seems to be aiming for anyways, more survivability, but it's doing it WRONG. Giving us more stamina just means more mana spent healing us. When raid stacking for a new encounter, we are looking for efficiency, and taking 10% less damage > being able to take 6% more damage in virtually every way.

I know some will disagree, but i think he trees need to be defined more for their specific roles.

Arms = PvP; That's pretty obvious with mortal strike, imp intercept, imp MS, bladestorm and virtually all the new talents.
Prot = PvE Tanking; No brainer here, it's what it's always been.
Fury = PvE DPS; This is what it should be, but it's failing because blizzard doesn't seem to realize that when raid stacking raid efficiency > personal DPS, and BF alone makes Arms>fury.

When you compare a Fury warrior in a PvE situation, he should come out head and shoulder above an arms warrior, you shouldn't be running numbers comparing physical dps and tank agro increases. Fury should be as much better in PvE as arms is in PvP, end of story.

Both of the new skills, shield break and bloodbath, seem highly focused on PvP, with minimal PvE uses as well. Unless there's a lot of enraged PvE mobs...that come in AoE packs. Probably going to sit right next to rend on my "frequently not used bar". That said, shield break will be nice for those times you have to kill a paladin/shaman and don't have 45 minutes to spare whittling him down.

 

Shha

Actually I would disagree about "I can't see it happening that non-BF warriors will outdps rogues.". I do , end of story. Im currently getting really really close to 3k on fight like brutallus - for a non warglaive melee its as good as it gets. Sure my raid is melee heaven - but arent all "record holders" that way? And highest non glaive rogue ive seen is way below 3k.

However this is END of tbc. From end of vanilla to early tbc (1st kara raids), my dps dropped by half because of way warriors scale and rage gets shitty etc . They made warriors scale better then other classes, but id rather be more competitive from the start.

As for Calgar - your builds assume MS ? Why. Builds will be based on BT + dual wield. Slam warriors with tbc talents wont really have any reason to exist. Read my so loong post above. Anyway what it seems is that dual wielding fast/fast will be the way to go no matter if you are the BF bot or not. Thats why I made a simple suggestion that would make most of the playstyles viable. Again:

- Switch BF with imp zerker rage
- Switch Enrage with Deep wounds + Impale

Make new BF mechanic: 12 seconds after a CRITICAL HIT WITH 2h WEAPON.

And voila - you have Titan Grip or 1x2h useful for BF, while fast fast DW will stay as the personal dps domain.

 

Calgar

Very interesting points Shha, i just read through that monster of a post. I completely overlooked BT over MS, but I'm not sure what the weapon DPS vs AP scaling will be so that could still be a toss up, not likely, with the new health returns on BT, but it's still possible at some gear levels MS might be greater then BT in the early expansion.

I hadn't considered dual wield BF spec either, especially with regards to SD. That will make itemization sticky when many if not all classes are looking for slow weapons.

But we seems to want the same things.

 

• Riot

I sort of agree with you that even today I feel that as a Warrior MT, I certainly at times feel less useful than a druid. I'm harder to keep up during Stomp and Corrosion, and Druids can put out better threat than me.

What separates Warriors today is their ability to not worry about most crushings, our panic buttons, and our defense against Spells with Spell Reflect, Shield Bash, etc. Warriors are the most versatile style of tank, and we excel generally in all areas of tanking - Druids, Paladins, and one day DKs will specialize in some styles of tanking a bit better - for example, Paladins have their AE niche, Druids have their massive EHP niche, DKs have great magic reduction - but Warriors can do it all, and we have Shield Wall, Last Stand, and other mitigation talents and abilities.

Am I worried a little bit too? Yeah, maybe. But I don't think there'll ever be a time when Warriors are going to be replaced as raid MTs.

According to the LSAT examination, the opposite of hot is: A) Cold B) Not Hot

 

Kaan

I don't know your raid lineup, but being a BF-warrior unless another one is doing it, isn't always required for justifying your raid spot (don't forget, Battleshout makes you invaluable compared to a rogue who brings exactly zero buffs, and only makes more P(ersonal)DPS, but overall clearly less RDPS). Only when BF-MS-Fury comes ahead on 17/44-Fury, with personal DPS and the debuff it is better - but with gear socketed for 17/44, this is rarely the case and above all, the experience is most times missing - so it is most times worse than just stay 17/44. Shha made a few posts about this issue - BF is only "needed" when your raid lineup is very physical DPS heavy. 98% of the guilds it is however not. Shha said that it is only really needed in a heavy phys. DPS Raid, what's obviously rare - and those raids have two DPS warriors anyway most times.


Best suggestions I've read so far about this talents. Hopefully blizzard will react and change some of the talents.

 

mistersix

I think one thing people are forgetting about the vigilance talent is the rider statement that says it refreshes the cooldown on taunt. That makes it a potential life-saver and a nice back-up (maybe even replacement) for imp taunt. Of course that means fast reflexes but hey, that's what we're known for as tanks.

Blizz clearly developed this with the community feedback about giving the tree talents to actually PROTECT other people and to give us some value . When that pesky warlock or hunter that's been riding you on omen all night gets a soulshatter or feign death resisted, voila! Given the way taunt works in tbc think of all the added threat we're talking about (assuming a tauntable boss of course).

I've seen a lot builds posted for dps flavors and of course the op is right that it's hard to suggest builds for prot not knowing the encounters but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the evolution of current prot builds. Where do we see Quigon's high-agro style or the defensive style builds going with the new talents?

Is something like this the future of the high-agro style? You lose anger management and imp taunt but pick-up all the added benefits of the new improved revenge, improved shield bash, incite, etc.

Is something like this the future of the defensive style? You lose focused rage but pick-up safeguard for more protect others type utility.

Thoughts?

 

acx

The taunt refresh happens only if the target of Vigilance is hit. Most non plate wearing dps can't take a single boss hit.

 

Addled

More than likely, that part of Vigilance is for 5mans. For instance, in 10/25man raids, a prot warrior will Vigilance the other tank, so he gets the bonus of 5% increased dodge. For 5mans, you Vigilance the healer. 5% dodge is nice, but the taunt reset is what's going to save your healer.

 

PSGarak

It would also help with tank transitions. If one tank needs to peel it off another due to, say, a stacking debuff, it will be nice not to have to worry too much about taunt resists. I haven't done Four Horseman in the original Naxx, would that have helped significantly while learning the encounter?

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....88847noszh.png

 

Morsexy

Yes, it would have solved the 4\9, or just reel to make back to back taunt resists nearly impossible. 1 in 573 if I remember the odds right, vs 1 in 80 with no bonus from either. But they helped this partially with the change of taunt to melee hit rating, though that is another stat that is rare on our gear now.

I've never understood why taunt wasn't a 100% spell, though this is the first MMO I've played extensively so I dont know if this was a result of some mechanic in EQ and the like.

I wonder if this will change the mechanics of taunt at all, I can't remember what version of taunt we're on. It seems like the tactic of one DPS going as hard as possible until aggro, and then aggro reduction spell + taunt, could lead to some cheesing of 5 mans, but maybe that is the point.

 

Muggins

If you're smart about your targets you can have taunt nigh-on always available.

Think about Hyjal trash, you've got a fresh warlock who's going a little mad on the SoC spam, now you could put vigilance on him OR you could pop it on the prot paladin who you know is always going to have a mob pounding on him. That way you'd have it constantly refreshed and still be able to save the trigger happy warlock, or anyone else who gets a little overzealous, with an added benefit that the protadin takes less damage overall.

Edit: Mistersix if we're aiming for the top aggro build and nothing else, one that's built for having a crack at TPS records and the like, i think we can trim the fat a little and go for something like this build. I wouldn't want to use it as an every day spec, but i would be interested to see how well impale and incite synergise.

 

PSGarak

Now that I think about it, there are actually some crazy things you could do with this. One of the most obvious is an AoE situation. If a mage gets some initial agro with a flamestrike and then Iceblocks with the tank still out of combat (or otherwise somehow survives), the tank gets craptons of free taunts to pick up the whole mass of mobs with some initial AoE agro. If you're in a 5-man and there's at least one relatively trivial mob (like a spare mob from an AoE pull) that you can drag it around from pull to pull and leave it on the paladin, and give yourself free taunts all day long until someone needs to drink.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....88847noszh.png