WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 54

• Aeverius · 08/28/08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Fallacy

I believe that depends on how they interact with their corresponding talents. I'm not too up to date on paladin specs, but would many besides Ret include Imp. BoM? The values of Commanding Presence and Imp. BoM are also very different (25% and 50%, respectively), so their base values would be as well. Currently, even without Commanding Presence, BS still provides more AP, but that can be adjusted anyway. This is withstanding the range, length, and GCD issues that warriors have, although I feel it's not too important.

Well, this quote says they will work out the same by the time WotLK goes live:

Originally Posted by Jimmythenumbers

In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of Attack Power.

With the changes to Paladin tanking, AP is actually useful now, and all Prot Paladins are going 10 points in Ret anyway, so a lot of them will choose to pick up Imp BoM. Holy may or may not pick it up, but it certainly wouldn't be hard for any given Paladin to spec into it for the sake of the raid if need be.

Liar · 08/29/08, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Aeverius

With the changes to Paladin tanking, AP is actually useful now, and all Prot Paladins are going 10 points in Ret anyway, so a lot of them will choose to pick up Imp BoM. Holy may or may not pick it up, but it certainly wouldn't be hard for any given Paladin to spec into it for the sake of the raid if need be.

It doesn't really matter though. Even at the same +AP values, BoM trumps BS for two reasons: 1) You can prebuff it for 10/30 mins and most importantly 2) it works on RAP unlike BS.

So if we had to pick the best debuffs/buffs the list would go like this:

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage (LotP heals you on crits if talented (which it usually will be) and is permanently active. Also has greater range so Hunters benefit from it)
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might (BS doesn't affect RAP and is awkward to buff compared to BoM)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma (it provides a secondary debuff for Shred)
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap (either will do, I think all are -20% attack speed apart from maybe Icy Touch? Can also add CoW here since it adds -20% attack speed at it's max rank)
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks (either will do)
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout (Demo Shout and CoW will do equally well)
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

So let's see: We get at the very least 2 "best in slot" debuffs/buffs with Sunder Armor (because it's "free" when you bring a tanking Prot Warrior) and Commanding Shout (if only because a Warlock can use a DPS pet then and BS will not be used anyway).
We get 4 "equal in slot" debuffs with Thunderclap, Demo Shout, Mortal Strike and Furious Attacks.
We get 3 "worst in slot" debuffs with Trauma, Battle Shout and Rampage. I hope they work on these.

Prinsesa · 08/29/08, 12:20 AM

Regarding Battle Shout and Blessing of Might: Our Improved Blessing of Might talent is currently +10% AP per point for 5 points, making it equal to Commanding Presence.

That being said, don't count on speccing out of Presence just yet, since the Replenishment/mana battery change guts Paladin mana regeneration such that we may prefer taking Benediction for mana cost reductions as opposed to Imp. BOM.

Only time and further changes will tell if this holds, though.

Thunder clap talented still provides the biggest attack speed decrease of the 4 mentioned I THINK, while Imp demo & Improved Curse of Weakness are equal while Demo Roar trails it.

Talented Thunder Clap, Judgements of the Just and 5 stacks of Infected Wounds are all 20% attack speed reductions.

Icy Touch is a 15% attack speed reduction untalented, 18% attack speed reduction talented, although Icy Touch also affects ranged attack and spell casting speeds. I would expect that the ranged and spell portions be abolished as per the raid stacking list and the attack speed reduction increased to 20% when talented.

Zegai · 08/29/08, 12:52 AM

Currently imp might gives less AP than BShout (even not improved? 350*1.5=525, vs 550 BS), but commanding presence is 25%, not 50% - AP values are according to max rank spells at wowhead.

I think that'll likely hold, however, since it's basically the only buff fury has, aside from rampage, which will be easier to maintain with a feral.

Rustik · 08/29/08, 12:53 AM

BOM is simply more convenient, as it lasts 30 minutes and you don't lose a GBC and rage every 2 minutes applying it during a 10 minute fight. But if you lack a pally, it's what you have.

Every class on every forum seems to be making posts of "We have x, y, z, buffs, but class a, b, c can do it, which makes us useless now."

Everyone seems to be missing the whole point. You won't necessarily get replaced by the ret pally. Yes, BOM and BS, but they don't have rampage, you don't have haste buff or mana return. It's not like one class has all the same stuff as another class. The overlap is across multiple different classes. There will still be reason to bring BOTH a ret pally and a warrior, or BOTH a warrior and a druid (T-clap is 20%, as are all the other buffs, but none of the other ones can hit 4 at a time), or BOTH a warlock and a deathknight.

Redundancy also helps with range issues in a fight where the raid is all over creation, or if someone bites an especially poorly timed shadowbolt to the face.

These changes are great. That isn't to say they're DONE. DPS for the various classes still needs tuning, and with the raid-buff changes, I'm sure more talent stuff is in the works. But it's a promising move int he right direction.

Liar · 08/29/08, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Zegai

Currently imp might gives less AP than BShout (even not improved? 350*1.5=525, vs 550 BS), but commanding presence is 25%, not 50% - AP values are according to max rank spells at wowhead.

I think that'll likely hold, however, since it's basically the only buff fury has, aside from rampage, which will be easier to maintain with a feral.

Read Aeverius post above first, then say that again about Battle Shout.

mistersix · 08/29/08, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

It doesn't really matter though. Even at the same +AP values, BoM trumps BS for two reasons: 1) You can prebuff it for 10/30 mins and most importantly 2) it works on RAP unlike BS.

So if we had to pick the best debuffs/buffs the list would go like this:

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage (LotP heals you on crits if talented (which it usually will be) and is permanently active. Also has greater range so Hunters benefit from it)
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might (BS doesn't affect RAP and is awkward to buff compared to BoM)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma (it provides a secondary debuff for Shred)
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap (either will do, I think all are -20% attack speed apart from maybe Icy Touch? Can also add CoW here since it adds -20% attack speed at it's max rank)
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks (either will do)
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout (Demo Shout and CoW will do equally well)
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

So let's see: We get at the very least 2 "best in slot" debuffs/buffs with Sunder Armor (because it's "free" when you bring a tanking Prot Warrior) and Commanding Shout (if only because a Warlock can use a DPS pet then and BS will not be used anyway).
We get 4 "equal in slot" debuffs with Thunderclap, Demo Shout, Mortal Strike and Furious Attacks.
We get 3 "worst in slot" debuffs with Trauma, Battle Shout and Rampage. I hope they work on these.

Another way to look at those is which classes do we have the most overlap with:
hunter 2, rogue 2, druid 4, paladin 2, dk 1, warlock 2
+ 1 to whoever gets the bf copycat

That potentially leaves druids and warriors with even more tense feelings towards one another than some had during early tbc raiding.

edit: noticed waylay (new rogue abiity) that copycats thunderclap was missing from the list.

Rustik · 08/29/08, 1:01 AM

They stated that buffs in the same category would have the same values, with a few exceptions. yes, the CURRENT BS does not affect ranged AP, but neither did the original rampage. It does now.

I think it's best if we wait to see how they adjust the numbers of the abilities before deciding how they stack against each other.

mistersix · 08/29/08, 1:11 AM

Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
Stamina Buff: Power Word: Fortitude

Don't seem to have any copycats or even a tba that copycats are coming.

Anyone know what class has access to Horn of Winter?

Rustik · 08/29/08, 1:19 AM

My guess would be mages or Death Knights. I can't find it in wowhead, or wotlkwiki, and google didn't help either. :P

mistersix · 08/29/08, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rustik

My guess would be mages or Death Knights. I can't find it in wowhead, or wotlkwiki, and google didn't help either. :P

Just checked further in the source thread. Most seem to say it's going to be a DK ability.

Originally Posted by Rustik

BOM is simply more convenient, as it lasts 30 minutes and you don't lose a GBC and rage every 2 minutes applying it during a 10 minute fight. But if you lack a pally, it's what you have.

Every class on every forum seems to be making posts of "We have x, y, z, buffs, but class a, b, c can do it, which makes us useless now."

Everyone seems to be missing the whole point. You won't necessarily get replaced by the ret pally. Yes, BOM and BS, but they don't have rampage, you don't have haste buff or mana return. It's not like one class has all the same stuff as another class. The overlap is across multiple different classes. There will still be reason to bring BOTH a ret pally and a warrior, or BOTH a warrior and a druid (T-clap is 20%, as are all the other buffs, but none of the other ones can hit 4 at a time), or BOTH a warlock and a deathknight.

Redundancy also helps with range issues in a fight where the raid is all over creation, or if someone bites an especially poorly timed shadowbolt to the face.

These changes are great. That isn't to say they're DONE. DPS for the various classes still needs tuning, and with the raid-buff changes, I'm sure more talent stuff is in the works. But it's a promising move int he right direction.

Conceptually and personally I agree with you 100%. I just hope the wow community has the maturity to roll with this sort of change. Which I'm doubtful in the near-term.

edit: proximity post

mistersix · 08/29/08, 1:30 AM

edit: proximity post folded into the above. apologies.

Fallacy · 08/29/08, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by mistersix

Just checked further in the source thread. Most seem to say it's going to be a DK ability.

Ghostcrawler mentioned on the Death Knight forums that they'd be recieving the Strength/Agility buff as a core ability.

WoW Forums -> Will DK's be viable raid dps

Emeraude · 08/29/08, 2:37 AM

*Smacks fist on hand*

It occurs to me Warriors that own a [Solarian's Sapphire] will be in higher demand then we originally joked about with the raid stacking changes. :p

If you're looking to absolutely squeeze out every bit of AP you need that is.

Fallacy · 08/29/08, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

It doesn't really matter though. Even at the same +AP values, BoM trumps BS for two reasons: 1) You can prebuff it for 10/30 mins and most importantly 2) it works on RAP unlike BS.

So if we had to pick the best debuffs/buffs the list would go like this:

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage (LotP heals you on crits if talented (which it usually will be) and is permanently active. Also has greater range so Hunters benefit from it)
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might (BS doesn't affect RAP and is awkward to buff compared to BoM)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma (it provides a secondary debuff for Shred)
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap (either will do, I think all are -20% attack speed apart from maybe Icy Touch? Can also add CoW here since it adds -20% attack speed at it's max rank)
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks (either will do)
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout (Demo Shout and CoW will do equally well)
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

So let's see: We get at the very least 2 "best in slot" debuffs/buffs with Sunder Armor (because it's "free" when you bring a tanking Prot Warrior) and Commanding Shout (if only because a Warlock can use a DPS pet then and BS will not be used anyway).
We get 4 "equal in slot" debuffs with Thunderclap, Demo Shout, Mortal Strike and Furious Attacks.
We get 3 "worst in slot" debuffs with Trauma, Battle Shout and Rampage. I hope they work on these.

I wouldn't count BoM's inclusion of ranged attack power just yet, seeing as they also recognized as much with Rampage and listed the change that it would increase ranged critical strike chance as well, although there's no change given for the range, besides just saying "for the raid." Is the duration really that huge of an impact, though? Besides the range issues with shouts, which may end up being changed anyway, I can't see it causing any real impact on the buff from just the duration, as it's usually the first thing a DPS warrior does in combat, and it's far from hard to maintain, not like the current implementation of Rampage. As I also said earlier in this thread, do not expect Feral druids to have Imp. Leader of the Pack either, given their current state of the talent tree, as it's very likely they will not include it in their spec.

However, given a certain quote from Ghostcrawler just a week ago:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

If Ebon Plague was a 12% buff and Curse of Elements was a 10% buff do you think that 2% means the difference between success and failure? What if one buff has a longer duration or costs less mana? We think you just hit a point of diminishing returns, where as long as you have the big buffs you need, and maybe some of the minor ones, the rest is going to be in the noise. One or two percent may seem a big deal for the guilds going for world first on Kil'Jaeden, but that kind of player is going to go to extremes almost no matter what we do. For most of us, our players being focused and getting lucky with a string of crits probably has a much bigger impact than a 2% difference. Or put another way, a buff that increases your dps by 1300? Yes please. Would I boot that player to get the buff that offers 1330? Probably not.

It may be that the values of BoM and BS aren't going to be changed, or, at least, by much, and, as Emeraude brought up (thanks for that, it occurred to me a little late as well), there's the Sapphire, and warriors still haven't been shown their glyphs yet. There's too many things that can occur between now and release to say which buff is definitively superior to another, until it's implemented on the beta, at least.

Orsier · 08/29/08, 5:21 AM

I really hope they'll change the base range of the shouts and replace Boomiong Voice with something else. I do't like the idea of speccing 10 talent points just to improve ONE skill that another class can apply.

Zegai · 08/29/08, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

Read Aeverius post above first, then say that again about Battle Shout.

They have already said buffs might be slightly different in power, even fully talented. I see no reason this won't apply to BS, especially if it keeps this way: BOM affecting RAP and BS not.

EDIT:
Oops. I had read the blue post, not the quote, didn't remember anything about BS there.

Well, I guess they will have to change it one way or the other, since it sure looks like they intend everyone to do more or less the same DPS, and you'd have absolutely no reason to take a fury warrior to a raid that way - not a single buff, takes extra damage from AoE, etc.

Darmon · 08/29/08, 7:45 AM

In BS vs BoM should also be considered 2 (3 talented) min duration vs 10 min duration ( 30 with reagent).

KooZ · 08/29/08, 9:01 AM

I -for once- am only purely happy in regards to raid stacking etc. when thinking about starting my new guild, since we choose to go for one nationality only and our former experience, we'll be able to run decent 10 man only, or slacker-filled 25, so I'm already building up my tanking team.

Ofcourse I'll be part of my own raids as well, be it as prot warrior (MT) or fury warrior (OT). As prot MT I'll need the feral druid for the 5% melee/ranged crit, but as OT I'll be able to grab myself a protadin or DK instead.

In regards to AoE damage, since our bloodthirst has improved (a lot) healing wise I'm sure we can fit ourselfs a spot there, and in my opinion threat won't be the big issue it used to be as fury, considering the big threat bump for most of the tanking classes.

In conclusion, my personal opinion has always been to play this class dynamicly. Being arms to provide thé debuff in raids, fury to do some decent DPS or tanking as prot, all styles fit me, or rather, I'll fit any style. I can only praise blizzard for enlarging this portion of gameplay.

Fuzzums · 08/29/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

It doesn't really matter though. Even at the same +AP values, BoM trumps BS for two reasons: 1) You can prebuff it for 10/30 mins and most importantly 2) it works on RAP unlike BS.

So if we had to pick the best debuffs/buffs the list would go like this:

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage (LotP heals you on crits if talented (which it usually will be) and is permanently active. Also has greater range so Hunters benefit from it)
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might (BS doesn't affect RAP and is awkward to buff compared to BoM)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma (it provides a secondary debuff for Shred)
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap (either will do, I think all are -20% attack speed apart from maybe Icy Touch? Can also add CoW here since it adds -20% attack speed at it's max rank)
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks (either will do)
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout (Demo Shout and CoW will do equally well)
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

So let's see: We get at the very least 2 "best in slot" debuffs/buffs with Sunder Armor (because it's "free" when you bring a tanking Prot Warrior) and Commanding Shout (if only because a Warlock can use a DPS pet then and BS will not be used anyway).
We get 4 "equal in slot" debuffs with Thunderclap, Demo Shout, Mortal Strike and Furious Attacks.
We get 3 "worst in slot" debuffs with Trauma, Battle Shout and Rampage. I hope they work on these.

Regarding LOTP vs Rampage, (if I recall correctly) LOTP also effects ranged critical chance whereas Rampage does not.
This is in addition to LOTP having the heal (with talent points) and a range which is 25 yards larger than Rampage. Personally I would like to see Rampage given a larger aoe radius, but I think it's somewhat pointless to speculate on possible changes at this point.

Hisstok · 08/29/08, 11:09 AM

I don't like these changes much...

If a hunter strays too close to me when I refresh battle shout, and BS is stronger, that hunter has to deal without an AP buff after 2m for the rest of the go, or bug people for blessing refreshes during a fight.
Same idea with rampage and commanding, the duration of our buffs may become an issue on split or mobility fights I'd be worried about overriding other people's buffs with my own "very temporary" one since I usually cycle in commanding shout whenever I am not dpsing to soften raid damage.

This does open quite a few points to dps warriors though, bypassing improved shouts gives This for fury, you can now trade deep wounds for incite if you want and have a few points open for cleave and some utility talents.

Borodin · 08/29/08, 11:27 AM

I actually think Blood Pact is likely to be better than Commanding Shout due to it's Duration. It's not 100% clear to me what the optimal Warlock DPS spec will be but at one stage it was looking like a Destruction Warlock with his Imp Firebolting would be competative if not the best.

It's a technicallity though as I think your likely to want both running due to range issues: a Warrior can cover the Melee, the Warlock now has the option to have his Imp "on tow" to buff the Ranged classes (and keeping it safe from melee harm while it Firebolts away).
Assuming 20yd range limits.