Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 12

Caligula · 07/28/08, 12:20 PM

After playing to almost level 74 in Beta as Disc, I can honestly say that this is easily the most fun healing spec that is in the game, and it's very viable. I expect that every raid will bring one for tank healing, the bonuses and abilities are too good to pass up.

No one is going to take a 23/x/x Priest, that's a complete waste of the top tier talents, which are now amazing for all 3 trees. Frankly, I think the Holy priest will be the least common of the 3 specs. I know people have gone over this so far in this thread, but I don't think everyone is really seeing the big picture here.

1) DS and IDS. Period. It's huge in Wotlk. I think many people are underestimating the focus on spirit for many classes in the upcoming expansion. DS alone will give a Warlock over 50 spell power and probably around 40-50 mp/5 as well.

2) PI and PS. Much improved at 1.6m CD and 2.4m CD. They are unique tools and their usefulness is only limited by creativity.

3) Grace. Is. Irreplaceable. There is no spell, ability or talent in the game that offers the same effect. Improved Devotion Aura is about half as effective. Tree Aura is healing only. 6% healing taken, and 6% damage reduced is the best mitigation buff/debuff in the game.

4) Divine Aegis. It's effective healing that cannot overheal. Whether or not it overwrites itself is marginal, although it would be nice if it didn't. You crit a 15k greater heal on your tank and you just put 4500 damage absorb on him too. No other class can boast that every time they crit they'll get 1/3 of that heal extra without overheal.

5) Penance. I'm going out on a limb here, but it's probably the best tank heal in the game right now. It stacks Grace to full in 3 seconds or less(the best tanking buff in the game), it can crit (proccing DA and Inspiration), it ticks every second or less due to haste (NO SPELL IN GAME DOES THIS). In my mixed t6 (off set, I raid as Shadow on live so it's not the best) it hits for 1600 and crits for 2400 at level 70 (average of around 5500 healing in around 2.6 seconds with some haste gear). With even just a 10% crit rate. The only downside being that since it's channeled it is interrupted by damage. I really think people are underestimating the usefulness and power of this heal.

Lambi · 07/28/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Brinas

I think the biggest obstacle that disc priests will have to overcome is that most of their raid benefits don't show on healing meters. They will have to rely on people seeing that the PWS saved them from a potential killing blow.

Seeing that every class is getting an aoe, and tanks are all getting viable aoe threat capabilities, I think it's safe to assume that there will be less tank and spank fights, and many more "adds" fights. Seeing that all healers are getting the ability to aoe heal, I think it's safe to assume that most fights will have consistent raid damage.

So, PWS will probably be quite useful for raid healing. i.e. throwing shields on raid members at half life to give the CoH and CH a chance to land before they die. I just think it will be a question of whether or not people notice how helpful the shields are that will determine if the disc priest gets the raid spot. It's much easier to notice stuff like that in arena 2s when the disc priest is the only healer. Most people don't notice how they lived in 25 mans, they just "cool I lived through that". I can't tell you how many times the mage has said "thanks <other healer> for keeping me up" after I cast every spell I had to keep them alive.

Actually seeing how good an arcane spec will be (FFB spec must surely get nerfed), your mages are going to pay you for shielding them at all times with the damage buff they gain from absorbed damage.

PyroTEK85 · 07/28/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

5) Penance. I'm going out on a limb here, but it's probably the best tank heal in the game right now. It stacks Grace to full in 3 seconds or less(the best tanking buff in the game), it can crit (proccing DA and Inspiration), it ticks every second or less due to haste (NO SPELL IN GAME DOES THIS). In my mixed t6 (off set, I raid as Shadow on live so it's not the best) it hits for 1600 and crits for 2400 at level 70 (average of around 5500 healing in around 2.6 seconds with some haste gear). With even just a 10% crit rate. The only downside being that since it's channeled it is interrupted by damage. I really think people are underestimating the usefulness and power of this heal.

Glad to hear someone likes it, though I've read that it's directional unlike other heals. I also heard that it can't be self cast, though I don't know if that was determined to be a bug or not. Have you heard anything by chance?

PsyBomb · 07/28/08, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

After playing to almost level 74 in Beta as Disc, I can honestly say that this is easily the most fun healing spec that is in the game, and it's very viable. I expect that every raid will bring one for tank healing, the bonuses and abilities are too good to pass up.

No one is going to take a 23/x/x Priest, that's a complete waste of the top tier talents, which are now amazing for all 3 trees. Frankly, I think the Holy priest will be the least common of the 3 specs. I know people have gone over this so far in this thread, but I don't think everyone is really seeing the big picture here.

1) DS and IDS. Period. It's huge in Wotlk. I think many people are underestimating the focus on spirit for many classes in the upcoming expansion. DS alone will give a Warlock over 50 spell power and probably around 40-50 mp/5 as well.

2) PI and PS. Much improved at 1.6m CD and 2.4m CD. They are unique tools and their usefulness is only limited by creativity.

3) Grace. Is. Irreplaceable. There is no spell, ability or talent in the game that offers the same effect. Improved Devotion Aura is about half as effective. Tree Aura is healing only. 6% healing taken, and 6% damage reduced is the best mitigation buff/debuff in the game.

4) Divine Aegis. It's effective healing that cannot overheal. Whether or not it overwrites itself is marginal, although it would be nice if it didn't. You crit a 15k greater heal on your tank and you just put 4500 damage absorb on him too. No other class can boast that every time they crit they'll get 1/3 of that heal extra without overheal.

5) Penance. I'm going out on a limb here, but it's probably the best tank heal in the game right now. It stacks Grace to full in 3 seconds or less(the best tanking buff in the game), it can crit (proccing DA and Inspiration), it ticks every second or less due to haste (NO SPELL IN GAME DOES THIS). In my mixed t6 (off set, I raid as Shadow on live so it's not the best) it hits for 1600 and crits for 2400 at level 70 (average of around 5500 healing in around 2.6 seconds with some haste gear). With even just a 10% crit rate. The only downside being that since it's channeled it is interrupted by damage. I really think people are underestimating the usefulness and power of this heal.

Thanks for the tester's view, I'd just like to mention that there is one other spell in the game that acts like Penance, but it isn't a heal. Arcane Missiles works exactly like that.

Celillenna · 07/28/08, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Brinas

I think the biggest obstacle that disc priests will have to overcome is that most of their raid benefits don't show on healing meters. They will have to rely on people seeing that the PWS saved them from a potential killing blow.

One of the patch notes says that absorb shields will show how much they absorbed in the combat log. I believe that this just might show up on healing meters.

Caligula · 07/28/08, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by PyroTEK85

Glad to hear someone likes it, though I've read that it's directional unlike other heals. I also heard that it can't be self cast, though I don't know if that was determined to be a bug or not. Have you heard anything by chance?

It is not self cast. You get a "Target needs to be in front of you" error when you try to cast it on yourself. I am assuming this is intended, probably for PvP reasons. It is directional, you do need to be facing your target to heal them.

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Thanks for the tester's view, I'd just like to mention that there is one other spell in the game that acts like Penance, but it isn't a heal. Arcane Missiles works exactly like that.

True, what I meant by that was, there is no other spell that from cast to heal (other than instants obviously) is affected by haste and is under a 1s cast time. With PI up on myself on the test realm, Penance cast time goes down to 2s (under .7s per tick).

It's also worth noting that the CD begins when you cast, so after you've finished it's only 7 seconds or so before you can recast. I have a feeling people will get into (although this might not be the best strategy) a healing spell rotation with it, to maintain stacks of Grace. Something like Penance>Gheal>ProM/Renew>Gheal/Flash/Shield>Repeat

Kortar · 07/28/08, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

3) Grace. Is. Irreplaceable. There is no spell, ability or talent in the game that offers the same effect. Improved Devotion Aura is about half as effective. Tree Aura is healing only. 6% healing taken, and 6% damage reduced is the best mitigation buff/debuff in the game.

4) Divine Aegis. It's effective healing that cannot overheal. Whether or not it overwrites itself is marginal, although it would be nice if it didn't. You crit a 15k greater heal on your tank and you just put 4500 damage absorb on him too. No other class can boast that every time they crit they'll get 1/3 of that heal extra without overheal.

3. Spirit Link takes Grace out to the cleaners. It offers 50% damage mitigation.

4. Druids get a similar talent that gives an extra reactive heal. They also have a spell that criticals over 50% of the time. Paladins get a similar talent that gives the benefit as a HoT - and they get a heck of a lot more critical from talents than Priests. And Shaman get a talent that gives double the benefit bounced onto the lowest health nearby target. I'd say all of these talents are far better than Divine Aegis. In any case, no one is really complaining that Divine Aegies is worthless running instances - they're commenting about 25-man raids. I dare to say that your experience with Divine Aegis in 25-man WotLK raiding is probably rather limited.

Caligula · 07/28/08, 2:45 PM

Spirit Link is broken at the worst possible time, when someone is going to die. It's also 12% base mana, and requires a cast. Spirit Link will be far more situational, or even require a specific group makeup (and probably a very specific raid positioning) to be used effectively. Are you really going to have every boss tanked Mother Shahraz style? Grace is useful in every situation, every encounter, no special makeup or casting required. You cast a heal, it's effective and benefits every healer on that target.

Did you really suggest that 50% crit on a Druids least-used (and highest mana cost) heal is superior to a talent that gives 30% bonus heals on crits (with no overheal) for every spell a priest has? Paladins get a hot on critical, hots overheal, shields do not. You are also assuming that a priest will not gear for crit in WotLK, and will have 7% base crit or whatever we do now.

Someone that says a damage absorbing shield is worthless in a raiding situation has probably never raided. I've raided for 1.5 years now with PWS as pretty much my only raid heal, and to me, it's priceless.

rooj · 07/28/08, 2:46 PM

Right now the hard cap on levels is 77, iirc.

So, yes, you are right that Caligula is not talking about raiding situations. But to say that data in healing 5 mans has no relevance is silly.

I am still Shadowpriesting in beta, but I have healed on my resto shaman a couple of instance. The problem I am finding in terms of judging healing, is that by in large the tanks and other players in my party are all overgeared for the starter 5 mans. I healed my guild's prot pally, and the mixture of t6 and badge gear (our progression is past MH, and on RoS in BT) made getting him mana the only issue. No one took serious damage and I found healing to be very easy, despite having a resto shaman in greens and not having much experience healing.

I think it is fair to say that Disc priests are certainly moving in the right direction to make them raid viable, or even raid desirable. No one will know what it will be like to raid at 80 for some time at least.

However, the fact that Shamans and druids have similar abilties doesn't really address the viability or desirability of a Disc priest. Blizz has decided to allow much more flexibility in raid makeup and prevent the need for raid stacking. If disc priests are viable, this will definitely help out in that direction. (A guildie who has been our disc priest raider, has reported so far in Beta how his mana regen seems to be much much better.).

Tainter · 07/28/08, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

Divine Aegis rewards a higher crit rate than is needed to keep up Inspiration. In fact, it's linear with crit (except for the overwrite chance). So this leads to two questions:
1. Is Divine Aegis enough incentive to look for crit above, say, the 15% you'll probably end up with naturally?
2. If not, is it worth taking anyway?

For question 1, Divine Aegis can be considered a 45% crit modifier on heals (on top of the current modifier, which while nice when it happens is largely negligible, so we'll call it 50% total). So 1% crit would increase your HPS by 0.5%. Using current values, that means that spell crit is roughly 1/3 as valuable as haste as a HPS modifier. (1% haste increases throughput by 1%... mostly. Spell haste is about 2/3 as expensive as spell crit.) As a shield, it has the obvious benefit of a temporary increase in tank HP, but at some point you ask whether it's worth the drop in throughput. My remark about overwrite chance means that this calculation is actually somewhat optimistic: due to overwrites, some of those shields will likewise be "wasted", so the effective crit modifier is less.

For question 2, probably. Even at 15% crit, Divine Aegis is a 6.75% increase in HPS for 3 talent points, which isn't too shabby (especially because your alternatives aren't particularly compelling either: Imp Inner Fire? Imp Renew?).

The difference between crit and haste is that crit improves efficiency. So on long fights with mana problems haste probably isn't what everyone wants. Particularly because there might be less mana coming back from Shadow Priests and heavy Disc doesn't have clear-casting.

thethain · 07/28/08, 5:14 PM

As to viability, it really looks as if blizzard's goal is to make sure that almost every spec has something that they can bring to a raid, even if it can only justify 1 of that spec. Granted with 10 classes, and 3 specs each that still leaves 5 specs missing from the raid.

As to Penance, technically it should get 70% push back reduction from healing focus if healing a target, and with paladin auras crossing party boundaries you should have no reason not to be 100% interruptible (via damage at least).

Caligula · 07/28/08, 5:25 PM

Just tested on the Beta client. Penance is not getting any pushback resistance at all from Healing Focus. I put it in as a bug.

Ellyh · 07/28/08, 5:35 PM

More than 5 specs get left out unless Blizzard balances around 5 healers. Caligula what has been your experiences of healing Warriors (and to a lesser extent bears) with all the shields that Disc gets. Have they been badly rage starved, as that looks like it may be of concern in 5 mans.

Given that the proposed spec swapping is the sort of thing that could easily get lost in the time crunch leading up to launch how many of us plan to level as a disc/holy hybrid. Healing 5 mans is easy and if your working on sunwell you will out gear the early instances rather badly. This spec looks like it would be a solid levelling dps spec. 20% more damage to smite and holy fire and current endgame game healing gear will see you dropping smites in the 1800 range non crit and with the regen you get your endurance should be good even if you PWS yourself.

Caligula · 07/28/08, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ellyh

More than 5 specs get left out unless Blizzard balances around 5 healers. Caligula what has been your experiences of healing Warriors (and to a lesser extent bears) with all the shields that Disc gets. Have they been badly rage starved, as that looks like it may be of concern in 5 mans.

Given that the proposed spec swapping is the sort of thing that could easily get lost in the time crunch leading up to launch how many of us plan to level as a disc/holy hybrid. Healing 5 mans is easy and if your working on sunwell you will out gear the early instances rather badly. This spec looks like it would be a solid levelling dps spec. 20% more damage to smite and holy fire and current endgame game healing gear will see you dropping smites in the 1800 range non crit and with the regen you get your endurance should be good even if you PWS yourself.

I haven't been healing 5 mans with PWS at all. Whenever I heal a 5 man on my priest (in TBC and WotLK) I always open at least 10 seconds before a pull with ProM. Then I cast it again the moment the tank is hit. This gives the tank a ~3k threat buffer on all targets, so threat is rarely an issue, ever. As for Aegis causing rage issues. I haven't noticed it. Then again I haven't been gheal spamming either. Honestly even with somewhat poorly geared tanks, Penance, Renew and ProM are enough to keep them up.

Short story: Went into Drak'Tharon keep with 3 level 70's and 2 level 72's. One of the 72's was a (broken) Ret Pally, I was 72 and the other dps were 70. Keep in mind the instance is designed for level 74-76 I think (The mobs are all 75-76). Healing wasn't a problem ever, even with the Ret Pally tanking everything. We got to the 3rd boss and then the server went down and the group fell apart.

As for a leveling spec. I started as full Disc because I wanted to try Penance, I think the damage on it is currently bugged as it doesn't seem to be getting full benefits from spell power, but I've been using the deep Disc talents to heal in instances as well and leveling has been a breeze. I went 51/10/0 and now I'm putting points in Spirit Tap, which is greatly offsetting the mana cost of the new ranks. I think the spec you listed would work very well too. You'd see over 4k (probably closer to 5k) holy fire crits with that easily. One thing worth noting is that Pain Suppression makes soloing the group quests quite a bit easier.

Starfire · 07/28/08, 11:31 PM

I'd just say, in regards to Spirit Link... I wouldn't mind splitting up targets.

Think about it this way, if you had two tanks and then you spirit link two other people. You have 4 people taking damage. Seems like "viva prayer of healing / circle of healing / flourish / chain heal". Not to mention being able to put up Renews (and other HoTs) on both target. And unless I am missing something / or things have changed in WoTLK, Prayer of Healing 4 people is more efficient than Greater Healing 1 person (in terms of hpm). (And dear god, if Mark of Divinity is real, imagine the HPS output of Prayer on 4 targets).

Anyone know if Spirit Link works with damage shields? Like say Divine Aegis / Power Word: Shield (and Ice Barrier, I'd imagine it would never work with Divine Shield).

Incoherence · 07/29/08, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tainter

The difference between crit and haste is that crit improves efficiency. So on long fights with mana problems haste probably isn't what everyone wants. Particularly because there might be less mana coming back from Shadow Priests and heavy Disc doesn't have clear-casting.

Okay, then take 1 haste rating and 2 spirit (or even 1 haste, 1 int, 1 spirit) instead of 3 crit rating. You still come out ahead.

grayrest · 07/29/08, 12:20 AM

What's the coefficient on Holy Fire if you're expecting 4k+ crits while leveling? Using the level 72 version and the normal spell formulae, I'm expecting about half that when solo: (750+(1400*(2/3.5))*1.1=1705*1.5=2557

The idea of doing that much damage in a GCD (Divine Fury) plus the good DPCT of Reflective Shield brings the idea of disc raid utility through dps. This would be useful for 10 mans in particular, where you regularly have to decide between 2 and 3 healers and grace loses much of its appeal. Doing something like adding 5% of holy damage as mana to Rapture and adding 100% crit damage bonus to Searing Light should provide enough mana return with JoW on the target to make Smite and Penance mana cheap/neutral in a raid while preventing it from being free in pvp. I would love to play a class that can heal and optionally dps (mana freeish at about 60% of a pure dps class) the same fight and a 51/20/0 is so close...

vesicular · 07/29/08, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Caligula

Just tested on the Beta client. Penance is not getting any pushback resistance at all from Healing Focus. I put it in as a bug.

Is this even considered a healing spell since it also does damage? Obviously healing focus shouldn't work if you're targeting a mob. This could be the intended functionality.

vesicular · 07/29/08, 12:45 AM

From Blizz, in the next build:

Rapture will now work with Divine Aegis in the next patch, and Divine Aegis will no longer replace the previous shield effect on the target, and will instead add into it (and refresh it's duration).

Wow.

• Aeverius · 07/29/08, 12:46 AM

Doesn't look like Penance needs pushback resistance anymore: it's now an instant, according to mmo-champion.

# Rapture: Divine Aegis shield effect was added to also give back 5% of the damage absorbed in mana. (Causes you to gain mana equal to 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5% of the healing done by your Greater Heal, Flash Heal and Penance spells, and 5% the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis is returned as mana to you.)
# Aspiration: The cooldown of Penance is now also reduced by this talent. (Reduces the cooldown of your Inner Focus, Power Infusion, Pain Suppression and Penance spells by 10/20%.)
# Improved Healing: Now affects Penance. (Reduces the mana cost of your Lesser Heal, Heal, Greater Heal and Penance spells by 5/10/15%.)
# Circle of Healing: Cooldown removed. Rank 1 Mana cost changed from 300 to 370.
# Penance: Rank 1 damage component lowered from 437 to 184 holy damage. Now instant cast. (Launches a volley of holy light at the target, causing 184 Holy damage to an enemy, or 670 to 756 healing to an ally every 1 sec for 3 seconds. Cooldown : 10 Seconds)

Mostly looks like Penance being worked into other talents, although that seems like a big damage nerf.

PyroTEK85 · 07/29/08, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Aeverius

# Rapture: Divine Aegis shield effect was added to also give back 5% of the damage absorbed in mana. (Causes you to gain mana equal to 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5% of the healing done by your Greater Heal, Flash Heal and Penance spells, and 5% the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis is returned as mana to you.)

The talent calc still lists 5 point as being 25% of the damage absorbed by the shields being returned as mana, which is totally awesome if true. Not only would crits proc a shield, but you'd recoup some mana as well.