Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 13

TheBlindOne · 07/29/08, 6:01 AM

For those who are curious...
HPM
disc or disc/holy build: the most efficient use of stats basically follows the line Spellpower=40*(Crit)-400**, where crit ranges from 0-100. So 1200 Spellpower works well with 40% crit. When I say spellpower I mean base spellpower, for every 1% crit, the healing drops 28.8 based on values at 80. So the 40% crit is actually at 336 Spellpower. 60% crit is really 560 spellpower etc. The actual spellpower is so low because crit becomes very expensive at 80.

HPS
HPS efficiency is a bit more complex considering it's not a straight line. It's also much lower crit% than the HPM. At 1400 Spellpower, the 45% for HPM is only 20% for HPS. 1800, goes from 55 to 25%.

One thing to take note of is at low gear levels, you don't have to be that close to the line in order to have decent efficiency since the delta is extremely small and is about the same as it would be for 0% to 10% overheal.

Holy: crit is always an inefficient use of stats. The best always lies on the 0% crit line.

NOTE: These are are approximations since data points only happen every 5% crit. I just took the max HPM value for each base spellpower.

** to get the actual spellpower for your level of crit use the formula Spellpower=11*Crit-104. Where crit should be expressed on a scale between 0-100.

Comparison between Holy and Disc: Didn't include the haste bonus from Holy Conc

Disc always has a better HPM

At the 2145 Spellpower mark, discipline begins to beat holy in HPS although even at low spellpower, disc is never far behind. Since Serendipity doesn't affect HPS and test only affects HPS when the tank is below 50% health, then the only time holy is better HPS is when the tank needs to be healed ASAP (which is to be expected as a priest). BUT, the HPS increase from Test hovers around the 500 mark over a large spellpower range, meaning the overall effect of Test of Faith will diminish compared to disc although a test of faith heal will always be higher HPS than a disc heal. Unfortunately the HPM of the Test heal is still lower than a disc heal so long as you have above 1150 SP (2100 +healing currently).
Serendipity effectively increases the HPM but cuts the HPS in half since you are required 50% overheal. Again like Test of Faith, Serendipity only exceeds Disc in HPM below 1277 (2400 Healing) although it does stay really close (less than 1 HPM difference) to the disc build.

Comp Holy Disc w/Haste (I'm probably doing the % wrong which is why I separated)

If you gain the effect from 16% of your GHeals and you gain it for 3 heals, then I assume 48% of Gheals will be hasted. (this is the part I'm not sure of)

this means the average cast time is 2.5*.52+2.5/1.6*.48=2.05 average cast time.

This places All non-Serendipity Holy Heals above Disc heals in HPS for all spellpower ranges (all reasonal spellpower ranges, disc wins against a non-test heal in HPS when you have above 12000 spellpower). a Test of Faith will always be better HPS than disc (Even at 200 trillion SP disc is only 92% of the HPS of Test).

What does all this mean?
So long as you don't have really gimped stats, Disc will be slightly better than holy for Gheal spam which means it's a raid viable spec. So it really comes down to How much better CoH is than Penance and Shield Spam and is it worth losing grace and iDS over. They seem to be giving all healers an AOE which means a lot more bosses are going to be AOE based so maybe the current status quo will remain (1 disc, rest CoHers). I'm sure since Grace will effect all healers then the difference in HPM of the builds will dissappear so on non-aoe fights Holy priests will not be gimped compared to disc.

Another thing to consider is how much threat will be lost on an aggro sensitive fight due to rage starvation from aegis. Will the lack of PWS during those fight cause mana issues due to lack of spirit (spirit is worth less for them, although I assume Min/Maxers will bring a regen set for when they can't PWS Spam).

TheBlindOne · 07/29/08, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Nogun

Are you confirming that both Divine Aegis and Rapture don't work by effective healing now but raw healing done?

Divine Aegis for example clearly states "amount healed", same can be found on Spiritual Attunement - Spell and that only takes effective healing into account ever it was deemed out of balance with Vampiric Embrace.

Even if it's only effective healing it's really good to see some synergy between talents. The kind of synergy I would like to see in Holy, where is the talent there that makes crit less useless?.

not what I'm saying although someone did say it was working that way several pages ago, unfortunately I have to theorycraft without access to beta (not that it would matter since this build isn't out ATM).

Overheal won't be much of an issue for disc priests even though they are going to be critting like mad, they are going to sacrifice huge chunks of Spellpower in order to get that crit so their overheal will be much smaller and their HPS only keep up due to the divine Aegis.

For example the average heal for a holy priest at 2000 SP 10% crit (I use 10% as the baseline because I assume its going to be hard to avoid crit on gear) will be 9296, a disc priest with the same budget will heal 8761, this is including the crit (his crit would be 60% Sp 560). Heck if he didn't crit he would only heal for 5580 while the holy priest who doesn't crit would heal for 8292 which is about the same as the disc priest crit (8370). Soo if the holy priest heals for the same on a non-crit as the disc priest heals on a crit then why would overheal be much of an issue?

I am just making conjecture based on the information posted on MMO champ.

Edit: also my numbers would be slightly off if the patch notes were not a typo and you only got 5% of the amount shielded back instead of 25%. The calculator still says 25% so I'm going with that. But the drop still doesn't lower disc enough to be weaker HPM than holy (normal).

Edit2: Also the SP values for Disc priests are going to be drastically lower than holy priests and will serve to confuse tanks and dps that ask your +spellpower. A Tier X holy priest might have 1600 Spellpower while a disc priest of the same tier would have 560 almost 1/3 that of the holy priest. But in fact the 2 priests would basically be equal healers despite the difference.

Incoherence · 07/29/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by TheBlindOne

For those who are curious...

Mind giving some spreadsheet or something to determine how you got these numbers? I'm having a bit of a difficult time figuring out how you got from the changes to Divine Aegis (which means that crit is a form of regen) to "here are the optimal stat breakdowns for high HPS".

In fact, you don't really cover regen at all (except in relation to HPM, which isn't exactly the same thing). Holy priests will have lower FSR due to clearcasts; discipline priests will have Rapture + PW:S + Divine Aegis which certainly seems to amount to a lot (assuming it's raw healing, which would be a really useful thing for someone to confirm).

As a back-of-the-envelope calculation... assuming it's raw healing and not effective healing, Divine Aegis is 45% of your normal heal, and you get 25% of that back (on a tank, at least, and from the sounds of things you can't overwrite the shield, only add to it, so there's no diminishing effect from high crit), for a total of 11.25% amount healed returned as mana. 1% crit, then, gives you an average of 0.1125% of your average heal back. Using level 70 numbers because it's 2am for crying out loud, that'd be roughly 5k base, for a total of 5.625 mana back per heal, or 11.25 mp5 (scaling upward with haste and spell power), or roughly 0.51 mp5 per point of spell crit rating, on top of the HPS gain (~0.5% per 1% crit, assuming some of your crit heals aren't wasted) and Inspiration uptime gain... that's at least competitive with the spirit + haste combination I proposed earlier.

TheBlindOne · 07/29/08, 8:07 AM

instead of considering it mp5 I considered it a flat cost redux in mana for the spell. Gonna do the best to explain my formulas, I'm not sure how to post a spreadsheet other than uploading it, and I prefer not to since they are so messy.

R= crit %
SP= Spellpower (actual, not Base)

1% crit=28.8 Healing (24 rating compared to .86 per healing)
Base=4270, C=3/3.5*1.05*1.88*1.05=1.7766, M=1.06
Heal                        =(Base+SP*C)*M
Crit                          =1.5*Heal
Shield                      =.3*Crit
Mana Return (noncrit)=Heal*.025
Mana Return (crit)     =Crit*.025+Shield*.25
Cost (noncrit)            =1290*.85-Mana Return (noncrit)
Cost (crit)                 =1290*.85-Mana Return (crit)
HPM (noncrit)            =Heal/ Cost (noncrit)
Heal AVG                  =Heal*(1-R)+Crit*R+Shield*R
Mana AVG                = Cost (noncrit)*(1-R)+Cost (crit)*R
HPM AVG                  =Heal AVG/Mana AVG
HPS AVG                  =Heal AVG/2.5

Then I set a base Crit(base) and Spellpower(base), I set the base crit at 10% because its kinda hard to get lower than that in healing gear.

SP=Spellpower(base)-(R-crit(base))*28.8*100
I made a chart of each crit% from 10 to 85% and just had a box for the Spellpower(base) that I varied to find the optimal at each level, you could also made a 2D chart with R and spellpower(base) varied and only show the HPM, either way you want to do it.

To find the best one I just did a Max() for all the HPM at that Spellpower(base).

I did the same thing for a Holy build by changing the C to (3/3.5+.1)*1.88*1.05 and M to 1.1. I also further reduced the cost by 16% to account for holy conc. I made seperate rows for regular, Serendipity and Test of Fath HPM HPS.

EDIT: The reason I didn't treat it as regen is a tank is most likely going to use up the shield on next hit, which means you will be getting the mana back in 1.5-2.5 secs. Also, disc priests won't really be worried about the 5SR too much considering their heals are gonna be smaller and be needed to cast more often. In fact they will be much like a paladin pre illumination nerf although they will have access to several instants. You will be spamming PWS every time a tank's weakened soul effect goes down and you will be casting it on all the tanks, each will give you a good chunk of mana. Crit Gheals will also give mana back. The mana return from PWS and Crits should reduce the MP5 spent to a low enough value that 30% meditation and Shadowfiend (and possibly a pot rotation) can keep you full up without worrying about the 5SR.

TheBlindOne · 07/29/08, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

As a back-of-the-envelope calculation... assuming it's raw healing and not effective healing, Divine Aegis is 45% of your normal heal, and you get 25% of that back (on a tank, at least, and from the sounds of things you can't overwrite the shield, only add to it, so there's no diminishing effect from high crit), for a total of 11.25% amount healed returned as mana. 1% crit, then, gives you an average of 0.1125% of your average heal back. Using level 70 numbers because it's 2am for crying out loud, that'd be roughly 5k base, for a total of 5.625 mana back per heal, or 11.25 mp5 (scaling upward with haste and spell power), or roughly 0.51 mp5 per point of spell crit rating, on top of the HPS gain (~0.5% per 1% crit, assuming some of your crit heals aren't wasted) and Inspiration uptime gain... that's at least competitive with the spirit + haste combination I proposed earlier.

More like 7.5% of your crit and 2.5% of your crit so 10% of your crit heal so 15% of your heal. so assume it only heals for your 5k as you suggested (250 spellpower ftl) thats 750 mana. You didn't include a crit% so I have no clue how you got mp5 out of that unless you are considering 100% crit which is 300 mp5, so at 10% crit it's 30 mp5 etc. The spell only costs 438.6 mp5. BTW, using the item budget equal to 2000 spellpower, that 250 spellpower gives you 70% crit meaning the spell costs 300 mp5 to chaincast. Of course you wouldn't want such low spellpower, like I said, there is a max in there which you want to stick to, or else your spells will suck.

You also want to maximize your spellpower as much as you can because more spellpower = more regen from PWS. at 250 spellpower, PWS actually costs mana which is bad. PWS becomes free at 291 spellpower and beyond that returns mana. At 1200 spellpower you get 100 mp5 per tank you are rotating shield on. This is a free (lvl70) pot per tank. also at 1200 spellpower, the best crit is 60% (most likely t8 content I'm guessing, shrug) and GHeal will cost an average of 406 mana which is 162 mp5. Meditation will more than make up for the rest. NOTE: 1600 and 60% crit is huge item budget, but since I don't have a baseline for lvl 80 content I have no clue what is a good number.

You also bring up an interesting point that holy priests are gonna have crit. Crit doesn't seem that useful for disc priests though, unless you are only spamming gheals. Penance is now a hot, so your 5 main spells are gonna be 2 hots, 2 buffs, and 1 direct heal. 1/5 spells actually take advantage of haste? bleh. I assume since downranking is getting a huge nerf that holy priests will invest heavily in haste and spirit so my comparison of straight healing vs heal/crit doesn't quite work and holy priests will have much lower HPM (made up for in regen) and much higher HPS. Neither priest will run out of mana, both will have very very different play styles.

Ellyh · 07/29/08, 9:38 AM

How do you come to the conclusion that disc gets better Heals per second than Holy? Nothing I see in the disc tree comes close to the multiplicative power of all those holy bonuses. As you say yourself crit is more costly than +spellpower, and scales badly compared to spellpower for heals because of the new healing coefficients. What effect is giving a powerful scalar to disc that is missing in holy? The maths for pure spellpower is simple as it is a straight multiplier of all the effects. This leaves the only option as Crit. Never mind improved clearcasting but how do you calculate Crit as scaling better than healing. I assume you are reassigning item budget from spellpower to Crit.

Base=4270, C=3/3.5*1.05*1.88*1.05=1.7766, M=1.06

In this line what is the tail end part representing? What is M? you have not defined it and you use it as a multiplier in the next line and looking through the talents I can't see where you are generating this number from. In your Holy calculations you have M as being the 10% total throughput due to Spiritual healing, as quoted next.

C to (3/3.5+.1)*1.88*1.05 and M to 1.1

Why have you changed to 3/3.5+.1? where is this .1 from? is it empowered healing? My understanding of the talent is that is that it is a multiplier not a cast time coefficient changer.

Also how do you get your spell power to crit conversions. At 70 1 crit is 22 rating which is equivalent to 25.6 spell power (going from stats on wowwiki) so your claim of 1 crit for 28 spellpower at 80 seems totally off. No research I have seen backs up these numbers at all.

Even using your numbers that 40% crit is 336 spellpower doesn't add up. Assuming that 15% of this crit is from intelect and talent that leave 25% from item budget which at 1-28 ratio = 25*28 or 700 spellpower.

Assuming you are converting spellpower to crit did you remember to factor in the LARGE bonus to spellpower the holy priest gets from spiritual guidance. A quick and dirty conversion of my personal current raid buffed stats to spellpower I have 800 spirit and roughly 1k generic spellpower from gear. This gives me a whopping 20% more spellpower (under the new system) than an identically geared Disc Priest.

Can you please post your full spreadsheet so we can see how you generated these numbers as what you have posted currently does not compute for my understanding of how things work.

Caligula · 07/29/08, 10:53 AM

As of the latest beta patch, Penance is still 3s channeled, does the same amount of damage as it did before (not sure whether this is due to a new damage coefficient) at 1230 spell damage it's hitting for 487-488 per tick. It is affected by Aspiration though.

So unless the non-changes were unintended, it got buffed.

Kortar · 07/29/08, 11:19 AM

If you gain the effect from 16% of your GHeals and you gain it for 3 heals, then I assume 48% of Gheals will be hasted. (this is the part I'm not sure of)

The chance that at least one of the three previous heals has proc'd Clearcasting is 1 - (0.84 ^ 3) = 40.73%. This gives you an over-time increase in hps of 24.43%.

Without being providing any details on your numbers, all I can say is you did the math wrong. Holy is substantially higher throughput on Greater Heal spam than Discipline is under any set of reasonable assumptions.

For 800 Int, 800 Spirit, 2000 Spellpower, 30% pre-talent critical, 180% spellpower coefficient scaling, 10% proc rate on Test of Faith and 2/5 HS for Holy vs. 5/5 HS for Discipline, I end up with 4322 hps for Disc vs. 5383 hps for Holy. Even if you account for Grace affecting Disc, but not Holy, you only end up with 4581 for Disc. This is nearly a 20% disparity.

TheBlindOne · 07/29/08, 11:24 AM