Restoration WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 7

• Playered · 07/28/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kortar

I'm not sure how 'awesome' it would be for Flourish to be automatically targetted on the lowest health members of the raid. Such a mechanic would minimize the impact of Flourish since it would pick precisely the targets most likely to be 'sniped' by other raid heals.

I actually think Flourish would work better as a party-only heal (like CoH now), so Resto Druids could effectively lay down a HoT stack on an entire raid.

I'm of two minds about the whole smart healing thing...

The benefit to having it on Flourish is that... well... a HoT will most likely have a smaller over-healing rate on the targets with lower HP... despite the fact they will no doubt get a bounce from other sources of raid healing - this is especially true when you consider pets.

Okoto · 07/28/08, 6:36 PM

We all really need to see what itemization is like at level 80, and then according to that information balance out our stats and talents. With that being said I've been playing with the current beta build talent calculator and I've come up with a few interesting builds for specific or multiple situations at level 80.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deep Resto Raid Healing [MT / OT-Melee]

This build provides very powerful PvE Healing, and great synergy as a MT Healer. At this point in the information revealed and my own speculation of AoE necessity replacing what was once crushing blows, I like the idea of healing a paladin MT more than a warrior MT with this build because of said encounter nerfs. The buffs to ToL make it a foreseeable necessity to deep endgame raiding. With the time saved from GoTEM, throwing out a regrowth at 50%+ crit (added 30% heal from Living Seed) brings a great deal of new play style prospects to raiding as opposed to lifebloom spam.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offensive Restokin Build

Defensive Restokin Build

In short each build although nearly identical breaks down between a defensive and offensive play style. Both of these builds are strictly for PvP (more so Arena, as BGs are more about mucking about); based upon your partner or team mates, strategies implemented and your own abilities (or latency as it factors in).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Resto Balance Hybrid - PvP Outlast / PvE Efficiency [Heroic Viable]

I predict that I will be using this build at level 80 because it bring a plethora of viability to nearly every aspect of the game. With regards to PvP Arena teaming up with a warrior, rogue, death knight, or retribution paladin, as they are able to mitigate a great deal of damage, playing to an outlast / efficiency strategy becomes very powerful in 2v2. ToL does not suffer from a speed penalty any longer so I'm looking forward to using it more in Arena when warlocks aren't present.

In concerns to heroic healing "if" they are on par at level 80 with heroic as they were at 70 one would have no trouble healing with this build as you gain a great deal of spell power and efficiency. Raiding may be an entirely different story as we all know it really becomes an encounter by encounter basis. The nice thing about this build is with the homogenization of spellpower, questing and dailies become much easier with this build utilizing balance spells and abilities.

Akston · 07/28/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kortar

I actually think Flourish would work better as a party-only heal (like CoH now), so Resto Druids could effectively lay down a HoT stack on an entire raid.

It might. We really need to get a confirmation of how it's working in beta. Seems there are 3 possibilities:
1. Affects 5 lowest people in range
2. Affects 5 closest people
3. Affects everyone in a group that is in range (how CoH works on live right now)

Miststorm · 07/28/08, 8:09 PM

If Flourish targets lowest health raid members, it would be critically important to know when and how often the determination is made. If it would be made before every tick, it would be very nice, avoiding quite a lot of over healing. If it would be made only once when the cast is made (or would target the nearest), it would be subject to quite some over healing from other healers.

Kamileon · 07/28/08, 10:00 PM

I can guarantee you it won't work on a per tick basis, as it's a buff that is put on a player when cast. It doesn't jump.

Bael · 07/29/08, 12:23 AM

From MMO-Champion:

Glyph of Healing Touch - Decreases the cast time of Healing Touch by 1.5 sec., the mana cost by -25% and the amount healed by -50%.

Glyph of Swiftmend - Your Swiftmend ability no longer consumes a Rejuvenation or Regrowth effect from the target.

Glyph of Innervate - Your innervate ability now has an additional 20% strength mana regeneration effect on you in addition to the effect on your primary target.

Glyph of Lifebloom - Increases the duration of Lifebloom by 1 sec.

Glyph of Regrowth - Increases the amount of your initial Regrowth heal by 50% if your Regrowth effect is still active on the target.

Glyph of Rejuvenation- While your rejuvenation targets are below 50% health you will heal them for an additional 50% health.

Some pretty crazy stuff there. Assuming all of these glyphs would apply only to the Greater slot, it's pretty clear that picking and choosing will be quite difficult based on the situation. Lifebloom looks like it will be practically mandatory, adding a huge amount of flexibility to healing cycles (particularly with the GCD reduction from Gift of the Earthmother) but each of the other Glyphs have their own strengths: huge amounts of potential Regrowth healing under pressure, bonus mana regen while Innervating a Priest, etc. Does anyone else get the feeling that choosing Glyphs is going to be more difficult than socketing the right gems or selecting enchants?

Norfair · 07/29/08, 3:07 AM

Originally Posted by Bael

From MMO-Champion:

Glyph of Healing Touch - Decreases the cast time of Healing Touch by 1.5 sec., the mana cost by -25% and the amount healed by -50%.

Glyph of Swiftmend - Your Swiftmend ability no longer consumes a Rejuvenation or Regrowth effect from the target.

Glyph of Innervate - Your innervate ability now has an additional 20% strength mana regeneration effect on you in addition to the effect on your primary target.

Glyph of Lifebloom - Increases the duration of Lifebloom by 1 sec.

Glyph of Regrowth - Increases the amount of your initial Regrowth heal by 50% if your Regrowth effect is still active on the target.

Glyph of Rejuvenation- While your rejuvenation targets are below 50% health you will heal them for an additional 50% health.

Some pretty crazy stuff there. Assuming all of these glyphs would apply only to the Greater slot, it's pretty clear that picking and choosing will be quite difficult based on the situation. Lifebloom looks like it will be practically mandatory, adding a huge amount of flexibility to healing cycles (particularly with the GCD reduction from Gift of the Earthmother) but each of the other Glyphs have their own strengths: huge amounts of potential Regrowth healing under pressure, bonus mana regen while Innervating a Priest, etc. Does anyone else get the feeling that choosing Glyphs is going to be more difficult than socketing the right gems or selecting enchants?

It will be more difficult as they have a much larger impact than choosing between 70 +heal and 40 mp5 (that what is now the only thing you have to choose between while gemming, I don't really think there are any enchanting choices a druid has to make in TBC).

The Healing Touch glyph doesn't seems very useful with already having Regrowth and Nourish, especially since healing output gets reduced by 50% but mana costs and casttime do not.

Akston · 07/29/08, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by Bael

From MMO-Champion:

Glyph of Healing Touch - Decreases the cast time of Healing Touch by 1.5 sec., the mana cost by -25% and the amount healed by -50%.

Glyph of Swiftmend - Your Swiftmend ability no longer consumes a Rejuvenation or Regrowth effect from the target.

Glyph of Innervate - Your innervate ability now has an additional 20% strength mana regeneration effect on you in addition to the effect on your primary target.

Glyph of Lifebloom - Increases the duration of Lifebloom by 1 sec.

Glyph of Regrowth - Increases the amount of your initial Regrowth heal by 50% if your Regrowth effect is still active on the target.

Glyph of Rejuvenation- While your rejuvenation targets are below 50% health you will heal them for an additional 50% health.

Some pretty crazy stuff there. Assuming all of these glyphs would apply only to the Greater slot, it's pretty clear that picking and choosing will be quite difficult based on the situation. Lifebloom looks like it will be practically mandatory, adding a huge amount of flexibility to healing cycles (particularly with the GCD reduction from Gift of the Earthmother) but each of the other Glyphs have their own strengths: huge amounts of potential Regrowth healing under pressure, bonus mana regen while Innervating a Priest, etc. Does anyone else get the feeling that choosing Glyphs is going to be more difficult than socketing the right gems or selecting enchants?

What exactly is with the healing touch glyph? Or the regrowth glyph for that matter? Reduces HT to... well exactly what nourish is but costs more mana.. Regrowth glyph makes it so you want to just spam regrowth.. But.. Isn't that sorta cutting in on what Nourish is supposed to be doing?

Duilliath · 07/29/08, 7:00 AM

How much would +heal add on top of HT rank2 ?
Talented, it'd be instant.

With that low a rank, I'd expect it to scale horribly (though, 'scale' probably is the wrong choice of terms here), but the idea tickles me.

Benita · 07/29/08, 8:55 AM

Downrank scaling was reworked. Spells attained somewhere about 20 levels before the last rank receive 0% of your healing (or damage). For healing touch this means anything below rank 10 will become a trivial heal if i understood it correctly. Even 11 or 12 will hardly be worth it on level 80.

• Playered · 07/29/08, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by Akston

What exactly is with the healing touch glyph? Or the regrowth glyph for that matter? Reduces HT to... well exactly what nourish is but costs more mana.. Regrowth glyph makes it so you want to just spam regrowth.. But.. Isn't that sorta cutting in on what Nourish is supposed to be doing?

With both the SM and RG glyph you should be able to pump out some very solid healing - the glyph actually allows some benefit to its stupidly long duration which is interesting.

Can't really judge how these work out until people are able to test Nourish though.

Akston · 07/29/08, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

With both the SM and RG glyph you should be able to pump out some very solid healing - the glyph actually allows some benefit to its stupidly long duration which is interesting.

Can't really judge how these work out until people are able to test Nourish though.

Yah the RG glyph is really nice.. It just seems like it and the HT glyph are stepping on Nourish's toes.

takel · 07/29/08, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Benita

Downrank scaling was reworked. Spells attained somewhere about 20 levels before the last rank receive 0% of your healing (or damage). For healing touch this means anything below rank 10 will become a trivial heal if i understood it correctly. Even 11 or 12 will hardly be worth it on level 80.

Well, that sucks pretty badly...

Any ideas on what the scaling is like for spells within the 20 level band? The large increases in mana costs and thus the relative strengths of regen has me a bit worried as well as the rumours of the potion sickness. The fears could of course be totally unfounded if gear shapes up... but never too cautious.

Holo · 07/29/08, 10:55 AM

I think regen it'll be more than ok because Spirit in Wotlk it's going to be like Stamina was in TBC. The stat to increase way more than the actual use in TBC and with the "revamp" that Spirit had I think that we won't have problems with regen.

What I really wanted to someone test is how Flourish works. As Kortar said, working as a party priority (party only isn't because the tooltip says party and raid within 15y of the target) within the range it would be great so that way you could really control better instead being spreading to the lowest therefore kinda random.

Garithras · 07/29/08, 11:48 AM

There's plenty of possibility for my assumptions to be wrong, but depending on when the -50% is applied, with some talent investiture the HT glyph is significantly more hps than plain Nourish. Assumptions: you've taken 2/5 Naturalist, Tranquil Spirit, and Empowered Touch; HT still gets 100% +heal; you have a HoT rolling for the 20% bonus to Nourish. Excuse my amateur usage of latex. p = spell power.

Nourish

$N_p = (\frac{1883+2187}{2} + p \cdot \frac{1.5}{3.5}) \cdot 1.2$
With 1000 spell power, Nourish averages 3470, 2313 hps, and ~6.4 hpm.
With 1500 spell power, Nourish averages 3984, 2656 hps, and ~7.4 hpm.

Rank 15 Healing Touch (-50% applied to base heal)

$HT_p = \frac{4375+5165}{4} + p \cdot 1.4$

With 1000 spell power, a glyphed HT averages 5185, 3240 hps, and ~5.5 hpm.
With 1500 spell power, a glyphed HT averages 6560, 4100 hps, and ~7 hpm.

THis makes a glyphed HT significantly better hps at the cost of some minor mana efficiency. It scales extremely well (probably too well to be true).

Rank 15 Healing Touch (-50% applied last)

$HT_p = \frac {\frac{4375+5165}{2} + p \cdot 1.4}{2}$
With 1000 spell power (2000 effective +heal), a glyphed HT averages 3785, 2365 hps, and ~4 hpm.
With 1500 spell power, a glyphed HT averages 4492, 2807 hps, and ~4.75 hpm.

This makes a glyphed HT still slightly better hps at the cost of mana efficiency. Probably not worth it compared to other glyph options.

Blackpatch · 07/29/08, 1:38 PM

I didn't see the math explicitly worked out in the thread so I worked it out myself. Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

The proc rate of Replenish (15%) and the structure of Rejuvenation (4 ticks in 12 seconds) means that a given Rejuvenation has just under a 48% chance to proc one or more Replenish effects. The chances of procing a given number of Replenish effects off a single Rejuvenation are:

$$0 Replenishes: 0.52200625 = 0.85^4 \times \[ \left( \begin{array}{c} 4 \\ 0 \\ \end{array} \right)\]$

$$1 Replenish: 0.368475 = 0.85^3 \times 0.15 \times \[ \left( \begin{array}{c} 4 \\ 1 \\ \end{array} \right)\]$

$$2 Replenishes: 0.0975375 = 0.85^2 \times 0.15^2 \times \[ \left( \begin{array}{c} 4 \\ 2 \\ \end{array} \right)\]$

$$3 Replenishes: 0.011475 = 0.85 \times 0.15^3 \times \[ \left( \begin{array}{c} 4 \\ 3 \\ \end{array} \right)\]$

$$4 Replenishes: 0.00050625 = 0.15^4 \times \[ \left( \begin{array}{c} 4 \\ 4 \\ \end{array} \right)\]$

$0.52200625 \times 0 + 0.368475 \times 1 + 0.0975375 \times 2 + 0.011475 \times 3 + 0.00050625 \times 4 = 0.6$

which means that although a given single Rejuvenation has just under a 48% chance to proc one or more Replenish effects, each Rejuvenation gives 60% of the Replenish effect on average. This means that in the long term (yes, I know fights don't last forever) Replenish can be thought of as:

Your Rejuvenation spell also restores 0.5 Energy, 0.25 Rage, 0.1% Mana or 0.5 Runic Power per second.

I don't know too much about energy/rage/RP generation rates, but 10 mana per second (MPS) on 10k mana seems like a nice buff to deliver with Rank 1 Rejuvenations that cost 1.6 MPS in ToL. (MPS will probably replace MP5 as a stat thanks to the new beta regen change.)

Now, if Rank 1 Rejuvenation works, then using anything higher for Replenish purposes is silly. If Rank 1 Rejuvenation doesn't work, Replenish gets bad in a hurry. It seems a little inelegant to me to create a high-level raiding mechanic that relies on 1.0s GCD Rank 1 Rejuvenations, and Blizz has a history of deprecating the use of very low-rank spells in raiding environments. For this reason, I don't think we've seen the final version of Replenish quite yet.

I can't comment on what I think this final version will be, as I'm not experienced with the mechanics and balancing of other party-regen abilities.

Note: Kortar informed me that I made this way too complex, and I did. The expected number of Replenish procs per Rejuvenate is just the number of Rejuve ticks times the proc rate, so 4*0.15 = 0.6.

Brinas · 07/30/08, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bael

Glyph of Healing Touch - Decreases the cast time of Healing Touch by 1.5 sec., the mana cost by -25% and the amount healed by -50%.

This would be great for pvp. It would be a nice counter to death knights and degeneration.

Akston · 07/30/08, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Brinas

This would be great for pvp. It would be a nice counter to death knights and degeneration.

Depending on how it's calculated and the coefficient of it vs. nourish there is a good chance it really would hardly be better than nourish even without a hot on your target. Nourish is also way cheaper. We will have to wait and see how the HT glyph is actually calculated but as of right now it really really doesn't make very much sense.

Cube · 07/30/08, 11:20 AM

Brinas:
I think that's what the HT glyph is aiming for. However, I still find the glyph's usefulness questionable, especially when you consider that it nerfs our NS+max HT combination, effectively removing the biggest "oh shit" button we have.

• Arawethion · 07/30/08, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Blackpatch

Your Rejuvenation spell also restores 0.5 Energy, 0.25 Rage, 0.1% Mana or 0.5 Runic Power per second.

I came to the same conclusion over on the Tree thread, and it was pointed that we don't know whether Replenish can proc on a full-HP target.

Soultrigger · 07/30/08, 11:39 AM

Probably it will, somehow they are testing allowing just one mana pot per combat... So probably our rejuv among others classes buffs will work as the mana regen for the raid... We shall see ^^

Benita · 07/30/08, 7:54 PM

I tested with letting rejuv continuisly tick on the tank. There were no 5 rage spikes out of combat, i couldn't really tell mid combat though. Doesnt look too good for that talent to be taken into a normal resto specc, with Flourish i hardly had time to cast rejuv.

Akston · 07/31/08, 4:40 AM

Since we are sort of on the topic of inscriptions how exactly do they work? Do you have to have the profession in order to use the glyphs or are the glyphs like enchants that can be sold/traded to other people?

Nitz · 07/31/08, 5:12 AM

You have 6 glyphs sockets in your spellbook (2 major, 2 minor, 2 lesser, where major and minor drastically change the way a spell works, lesser being cosmetic or fun aspects), Inscription appears to have a Glyph Mastery allowing you to have one other Glyph. Glyphs can be sold through the AH or trade windows.