[e] Duplicated post because Firefox hates me.

Most of those damage reduction talents are at 51 points, and are the designated "pvp" talents. Guardian Spirit is a pvp talent. Dispersion is a pvp talent. Etc.. Healing the target for 10% of their health when it dies ('preventing death') really isn't going to save a tank if they're spiking that badly. Pain Suppression might, if you're deep Disc, but I'm not seeing the utility of Guardian Spirit ... yet.

The comparison between IHC and Borrowed Time is actually a good one, since those two talents define your play style with the two specs. If you go deep holy, IHC means every 7 or so casts, you get a ~ 1.4 second absolutely free max-rank GHeal. You can follow this with 2 hasted regular GHeals at the same speed, but costing mana. Your HpS will be extremely high from the constant haste procs, your mana will be doing fine because 1 in 7 casts (roughly) is free, and you have Serendipity if you overheal.

On the other side of the coin, if you go deep Disc, you get access to extremely high-absorption PW:S casts which are 1.0 second GCD and that effectively cost you 0 mana, assuming they absorb full damage. Your GHeals will heal for a lot less (no Spiritual Healing, no Empowered Healing, no Test of Faith), but if you happen to crit you get most or all of the difference back from Divine Aegis.

When I did the math assuming 2600, 2800 and 3000 HSE and a *9%* Grace, deep holy still healed for quite a bit more per cast, several hundred points of healing at minimum. You have to make up that difference from the PW:S, but as you showed, that only heals for ~ 4k HpS.

In deep holy, assuming the holy conc procs, and assuming worst case of a proc every 10 casts, and using max-rank numbers as you listed, I could sustain theoretical HpS of over 4500 HpS. Yes, I could go deep Disc and cast a 4k shield, but I can easily sustain higher pure healing throughput from straight-up GHeal in Holy.

At least they are comparable. Once someone gets into Beta, we can start actually testing throughput and looking at the spell details for all of the various ranks, and get a feel for how Grace will effect things.

It was never linked to Priests in the data files anyway. People just assumed it was a Priest ability because it sounded "Priesty".

I actually assumed it was a paladin talent from the beginning: we'll have to wait and see whether anyone picks it up from a trainer at 78 (which is when I assume it will pop, since it's one of those "end of your expansion skillset" type things).

We get "Penance" ... which unfortunately is 51 points in Disc, and seems very odd. I'm really curious what it's supposed to be for: an arcane-missiles style heal really doesn't bring anything to the table as far as I'm aware, except for PvP pillar humping.

Havoc, while under perfect conditions PWS and PoM may generate slightly more burst healing than a greater heal the advantage of it slides fast if you have any sort of latency at all. Call me bad but between reaction time and 450 ping I will take almost as long to cast those 2 spells as I will to cast 1 greater heal. As someone who has mediocre reaction times and bad ping I HATE twitch talents and find them very very hard to time. You can talk about just quickly reacting with a PWS but if your unable to reliably stop a 1.5 sec cast because of latency you can't react worth a damn to spike/emergencies either.

Deep Disc is rubbish now. Say all you like about it but with the current numbers it's just flat out bad. There is nothing there to justify your existence to the raid that another healer can't do just as well. People can try to justify grace but it's nothing. 6% is aflock territory and 6% more heals is also very week. This won't even cover your powerloss from not going deep holy *assuming 3 healers on the tank* as the maths clearly shows that disc is 20% behind holy in power.

They really need to move rapture back to group regen, then you would viable want 1 priest of each spec in the raid.

It would fill all your needs as well, tank healer/2x mana batteries/AE healer/Imp. DS buff/Grace...

Why did they have to move it to solo... sigh

Did I miss out on the Lightwell discussion train?

In any case, I'm surprised that no one has noted how amazingly useful Lightwell could have been in Mt. Hyjal had it actually been implemented it correctly:
- Use it if/when you get hit with Carrion Swarm and can't heal yourself effectively
- Drop it on the melee during Kazrogal so they can heal themselves through stomp
- Drop it on the tank during Azgalor, and he can use it during Silences
- Drop it on the tank during Archimonde, and he can use it if his healers are forced out of range. Alternatively, drop it on your group for whoever gets doomfired.

For BT, it's not as big of a difference but I can still see some pretty good uses:
- Drop it on the ghost spot for people to heal up while they're waiting for those last 10 seconds of the debuff to wear off and kill them. (so they don't die prematurely to shadow AoE) Also for people to heal up after they res/soulstone once they finish ghosting.
- Drop it on the lash soakers for Mother Shahraz, and you won't even need to assign people to heal them anymore.
- Drop it at the spot where you normally deal with Parasites on Illidan.

In SWP:
- Put a Lightwell next to the demon tank or on the spot where the raid stacks in the demon realm. Grab it if you're getting hit with shadowbolts or have the curse.
- Put Lightwell down on the Burn area, and tap it for a charge or two when your Burn debuff hits around ~10-5s.
- Have people who are low grab Lightwell charges during the beginning of Felmyst P2. Threatless healing = no skeletons gibbing healers.
- Twins: the entire raid is stacked on the same spot, so the application is obvious here.

My main issue with Lightwell has always been (and remains) with the ridiculously long cooldown. Unlike most people, I don't see Lightwell as a mana efficiency talent as much as a heal that doesn't require a cast time or a GCD from your healers. I think Lightwell should be on a 30-60second cooldown, even if that means the number of charges per Lightwell gets reduced or if the mana cost gets increased. It would be far more useful to have a Lightwell that you can move around multiple times during a fight rather than be forced to basically pick one spot for half the encounter.

By virtue of there being two threads (and I posted in both; good work to me posting on too little sleep), let's terminate this one just by /roll and consolidate discussion in the other thread:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27943-p...ew_discussion/

I agree with this, especially if you look at the changes to some other classes (like the Shield Block changes to warriors). Grace, Divine Aegis and Test of Faith only prove this point. Even GS I can see being useful depending on the fight. It probably means encounters with really massive spike dmg that you must be able to pull out of quickly to continue with the fight.

Edit: suppose I should have read the last post first. Sorry about that.