Pyralissa

Well MH Spellpower swords are only available for Warlocks, Mages and Paladins who all have remakably similar desires in their gear (spellpower, crit, haste). Assuming a pair of Mages and Warlocks in your raid and one holy Paladin that comes down to five classes. Maces however have a lot more competition with Priests (all specs), Druids (two specs), and Shaman (two specs) all keying in on spellpower mainhands. That's six members of the raid without even bringing Paladins into the equation. If you look through the Naxx loot there's a dagger with near identical stats (slightly stronger equip mods, slightly lower stats) so if that's any indication the spellpower main hands are all going to be very similar in itemization simply because there is going to be a lot of demand on them in a typical raid.

 

Suicidal Zebra

A quick question, but is anyone else noticing something fishy about Hammer of Wrath's invocation of the GCD? Right now it seems to not be invoking the 1.5 sec GCD but rather a 0.5 sec one, which leads me to wonder if the change is intended. Hopefully it's just a UI glitch given how handy a instant HoW would be, but it might be worth checking by someone who has a less lag-ridden Beta experience.

 

• Avitus

A few patches ago (on live) HoW was changed to invoke a non-standard 0.5 sec GCD instead of the 1.5 one. I guess this carried over despite them changing the cast time to instant. I don't see the problem

 

Suicidal Zebra

Ah, excellent. I was a little worried that with all the aimless fiddling of the Paladin talents the 0.5 GCD, rather than 0.5 Cast Time, indicated an unintended bug. Glad to be proved wrong

 

Tilted

There's a substantial difference between a trinket that provides less of a personal benefit to a warrior that also benefits others, and a glyph that provides ZERO benefit to the warrior and only benefits others in the raid. If you only look at 25-man play I'm sure you'll find a handful of warriors willing to use said glyph, but many people enjoy 10-man, 5-man, and even solo play as well. So if there's little to no incentive for a warrior to take this, it leaves us with the problem of Battle Shout providing a noticeably better buff (especially with the sapphire) but with few, if any, warriors picking up a spellpower glyph to enhance it. So now your melee will want Battle Shout and casters/hunters will want the glyphed BoM. That would completely defeat the purpose of non-stackable buffs, as you'd still need to bring both classes to a given raid.

My point here is that if Blizzard puts in an analogous glyph for Battle Shout as their "solution" to the problem, they're doing all of us a major disservice.

 

Fiola

So how does SoL/JoL work on beta right now?


SoW/JoL were changed to regen a % of total mana - was the same done for SoL/JoL and total HP? What are the current beta coefficients for SoW, SoL, and JoL?

 

Solyna-Terenas

It seems to me that Blizzard is trying to accomplish contradictory goals.
They don’t want unique buffs so that certain classes are required which leads to more homogenization of abilities, but they’re also trying to have more unique/individual choices for your character – through inscription, trying to avoid cookie-cutter specs, etc.

This specific example of glyphed BoM pretty much shows us the issue. As Tilted states, it’d be silly to have Battle Shout provide a useless (to the warrior) +spellpower, but then you have different classes/specs wanting different buffs and you’re having to bring more classes to the raid to cover all those buffs.

I haven’t seen a glyph for Battle Shout, but if it’s something the warrior would like to use (more attack power, stamina or something) then it makes the problem even bigger.

This is probably not as big a problem in 25-man content, but my small guild plans to stick to 10-mans and we may not have the ability to stack all these buffs, and we’d still want to min/max as much as possible for progression nights.

 

Prinsesa

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Seal of Wisdom and Seal of Light return 4% of max mana or max health per proc, respectively, while Judgement of Wisdom and Judgement of Light return 2% of max mana or max health per proc.

That being said, I would also like to know what the proc rate of SoL/SoW is, if it's at all observable.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....63815BffMm.png

 

Fiola

SoL/JoL are still listed as scaling with AP in the OP. I haven't seen any posts mention SoL/JoL, hence the question.


For SoL/SoW proc rates, the accepted number (from vanilla WoW days) was 14/12 PPM, respectively. I'm aiming to do some testing when the PTR goes up. Strikes proccing seals will help a lot with finding the % proc chance for a given weapon speed.

 

Cathela

SoL still heals based on AP and SP, and seems to still be using the same coefficients. Haven't tested JoL recently, but I'd be surprised if it's changed.

Then you take what you can get, or pick between the options available. A glyph that gives 10% of BoM's AP as spellpower is perhaps 20% as powerful as the actual BoM. It's not in the same league of importance as the actual blessing itself.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Dekkar

Also, the effect or value of the glyph is further diminished in 10-mans because the BoM buff is applied to less people. Additionally, there may only be a single or two paladins in a 10-man, so the chances of casters even getting BoM at all is pretty much nil.

 

Zehn

Just saw this on MMO-Champion BlueTracker

I know ret dps has been low in the first few Naxx wws parses, generally caused by low mana regen. Apparently though may also be affected by this change

 

Cathela

That statement is true enough as far as the seals go.

But as far as the judgements, they actually did nerf the scaling of Command and Blood. Not only does the 40% nerf to standard judgement damage apply to them, but the "weapon damage" portion of their damage no longer includes weapon damage from attack power. That second part is probably a bug, but that's the way it is right now.

I think this is intended to fix the scaling issues of SoC/B vs SoR, among other things.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Redcape

I put the new coefficients and all the new stacking/not stacking buff information into my spreadsheet and it ends up looking like Vegeance, Righteousness and Blood are extremely close in overall dps now. The difference is something like 90 dps between them, which isn't too bad considering originally Righteousness was outdamaging Blood by around 900 dps. My spreadsheet shows paladins who use all abilities on cooldown with equal priority who have every raid buff sitting between 2884 and 2976 dps depending on seal choice. Currently SoR>SoV>SoB, but the numbers are so close that it isn't a big deal. If Blood does get its Judgement scaling off of full weapon damage and not base weapon damage Blood will definately pull into the lead.

I will link the sheet once I get it fully updated and working and get precise information for the coefficients.

 

flyingtoastr

Are you accounting for crit? Every set of numbers that I have done put Blood way ahead of Righteousness because it can crit.

SoV was the one doing better than both by a marginal percentage in my sims.

Save Atlantis!

 

Redcape

With the numbers at the start of the beta a fully buffed ret paladin was going to be doing over 2500 with each proc of SoR. SoB may be able to crit, but it sure wasn't ever going to reach those kinds of numbers. Given that SoR has been nerfed by 40+% though they are lining up to be very close in terms of overall power. SoV seems like it will be the top contender in a long fight (which seems fine by me) and SoB and SoR are extremely tight.

At the moment the SoB judgement apparently uses weapon damage ignoring AP instead of full weapon damage, which is undocumented. If that is intended, SoB and SoR should remain very close, with Blood giving more mana returned to the paladin but running the risk of a big crit ripping off over 2k of your own health. I would lean towards SoR in that case since I don't want that risk and I don't really want the healers having to support my mana pool. If SoB is supposed to be using your full weapon damage in the Judgement then SoB will definitely pull ahead in overall dps when the current model gets changed.

Keep in mind that the 2500 number was generated before all the stacking buff/debuff stuff was put in. SoR scaled vastly better from that than SoB did which is what made part of the enormous difference. Those changes will lower the ret paladins overall AP by 1300 or so, which is fairly massive. It does not necessarily change our place in the pecking order of dps classes, but it does change which seal we use since SoB scales off weapon damage and SoR does not so lowering AP makes SoR worse relatively speaking.

Edit : changed numbers to reflect reality

 

flyingtoastr

Well if your healers can't keep you up through the relatively predictable damage of SoB (with all due respect) get some new healers. Do you gimp your warlock DPS because they might kill themselves with life tap?

Regardless...

Assuming 4400 Attack Power, 1230 Spell Power, 35% melee crit, [Cataclysm's Edge].
Percentage Modifiers: Vengeance x2 (10%), Crusade (3%), Sanctified Retribution (3%)

Seal of Blood

.35 * Average weapon damage = damage

Base damage = .35 * ( 483 + ( 4400 / 14 * 3.5 ) )
.35 * ( 483 + 1100 )
.35 * 1583
554

Modified normal = 554 * ( 1.1 * 1.03 * 1.02 )
554 * 1.15566
639

Modified crit = 2.0 * 639
1278

Average damage = ( 1278 * .35 ) + ( 639 * .65 )
862.65

Seal of Righteousness

Weapon Speed * ( .05 * Attack Power + .1 * Spell Power ) = damage

Base damage = 3.5 * ( .05 * 4400 + .1 * 0 )
3.5 * 220
770

Modified normal = 770 * (1.1 * 1.03 * 1.02 )
770 * 1.1566
890.582

Average damage = 890.582

As I said, we're still getting different results. My guesses:

A) You're letting the SP from Sheath affect SoR (it doesn't).
B) You're assuming some sort of extra percentage modifer for seals (there aren't any more).
C) You're talking about Judgements, in which case I would kindly ask that you use the common nomenclature of "Jox" instead of "Sox" in your posts.

Save Atlantis!

 

Selenia

That sounds buggy to me, as the notes -specifically- say that SoC, SoB, JoC and JoB were untouched.

 

Sydane

Remember that with the gearing changes, there are now over twice as many healing weapons as before (and likewise far more caster weapons as well). Priests and shaman can now take healing daggers (there isn't a single epic one in BC currently), Moonkin and Elemental Shaman will only need one mace (or dagger for shaman) for both main and healing sets, and there will be healing swords for paladins, something that doesn't exist at all currently (Grieving Spellblade is pretty much perfect for holy paladins). Yes, the competition for a single piece of gear will be higher, but you should see far more useful drops and options than before.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

Redcape

Warlocks have the option to not lifetap during high raid damage phases/times. Are you going to simply stop casting judgement when your health drops below 50%? Warlocks can (if they play reasonably) fill up on mana during the easier phases and not LT when things are dicey, if you do that with your judgement you are losing huge amounts of dps.

The reasons our results differ wildly:

You ignored 15% bonus damage from SotP.
In the first beta build (which I clearly said I was referring to) SoR was affected by spellpower, which raises its damage by a immense amount.
You are using a incredibly gimp AP pool. My calculations were based on level 80 starter gear and full raid buffs, which gave a ret paladin 6200 AP and 2200 SP with all the raid SP/AP buffs.
With the massive changes to buff stacking AP is dropping by a tremendous amount, as I said.

Just these 3 things raise your base 770 to 2133. The other random % buffs push it up to the 2500 mark, and of course this is modified by weapon speed in a fairly powerful way because it is an unnormalized attack.

1. I know about this, and assumed it was a bug. It not affecting SoR is bizarre and undocumented, thus is seems sensible to assume it is a bug and not some kind of idiotic kludge.
2. There is a 15% bonus to SoR, SoV, JoR, and JoV.
3. I am well aware of the standard nomenclature for speaking about seals and judgements.

If you want my spreadsheet (which is outdated for certain because of all the changes) you can view it here.

It is correct from the information available at the time.

 

DarKNecross

Let's not forget about [Spirit Link], which I'd assume to be applied to the Ret Paladin (and vicariously the melee) if there exists both a Ret Paladin and a Restoration Shaman in any given raid. If Seal of Blood does 1200 damage average damage, with a max value of 1700, and JoB does 3300 average with a max of 5000, with Spirit Link the most damage we should take from SoB is 85 and the most we should take from JoB is 545.
Especially when you factor in [Blood Aura], which heals for 2% of damage done, we'd heal ourselves for 34HP on the 1700 SoB hit, meaning we take a measly 51 damage. 0.3% of a 17,000HP Paladin's health.
For JoB, we heal ourselves for 100 on a 5k Judgement, which means we take 445 effective damage.
Ignoring the healing from Divine Storm, between Flourish and Chain Heal on the Melee, I don't see our recoil damage to be a big deal.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

flyingtoastr

We just had this discussion a few pages ago.

-Prot pallys will be dumping BoS on themselves and the other tanks and will need someone else to pick up kings on tanks (REQUIRED).
-A Holy Pally gains 5% more spell crit from going for Conviction and gains nothing from prot. In addition if a Holy Pally is doing kings you lose Improved Wisdom (-18 raid Mp5).
-Therefore in a 1/1/1 distribution raid your ret pally will have to go down prot to pick up Kings.

A ret build with Kings doesn't have enough extra points to take Seals of the Pure without dropping DPS/utility talents. Therefore assuming you're going to have that talent is... wrong.

Now of course everyone is hoping that kings is made baseline so we can avoid this unpleasantness but at the moment that's the way it is.