WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 24

Kazekan · 07/23/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Lunkhedd

Another question--the Fanaticism talent still refers to "Judgements capable of a critical hit". Have you spotted any Judgements that can't crit?

Neither JoW nor JoL can crit. They are just being specific to avoid confusion.

JoJ can crit however, because it has its' own damage component.

I'm curious to see what changes they made (was it today or yesterday?) since I haven't had much time to play since the weekend. I'll post my findings tomorrow morning.

Since I just got around to hopping on to EJ to see what everyone was saying and havne't read all of the other posts, has anyone touched on the topic of increased DPS due to efficiency increases from not needing to weave seals & judgements all the time? Being able to mash one button that does both CS and Judgements on CD has been pretty dang nice, not to mention it's kinda funny to run up to a mob, hit one button, and then run on to the next ><

levk · 07/23/08, 1:29 PM

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot; I think you guys are double dipping your spell damage numbers on judgment of command when target is stunned - the tooltip has two damage ranges, normal target and stunned target. It's not a straight 2x modifier, so the + spell damage applies once, only the base damage gets doubled.

Marcos · 07/23/08, 1:32 PM

The spell tool tip was completely redone for Wrath. Damage ranges are no longer specified on the Seal. It merely states that unleashing the seal deals holy damage to a target and deals twice as much damage to a stunned target.

Dram · 07/23/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by teeny

I think the spell description is clear enough to answer your question without having it tested on beta : the DK will be vulnerable to all undead-aimed spells , at the exception on turn evil , obviously.

Why would Turn Evil be the obvious exception to the rule? On live, undead mobs are immune to traditional fears but not Turn Evil.

flyingtoastr · 07/23/08, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dram

Why would Turn Evil be the obvious exception to the rule? On live, undead mobs are immune to traditional fears but not Turn Evil.

Because the DK specifically is "Immune to Fear" in Lichbourne form.

On another side note though you should be able to fear Warlocks in demon form.

EDIT: Someone just told me that SoR is only usable with a 1-handed weapon now. Can anyone confirm this (is seems a little wonky but it would explain the pretty obscene damage scaling)?

Rustik · 07/23/08, 2:10 PM

From what I've been hearing, the new judgement damage is very nice, even without the over powering AoW+Stunned+SoC. There has also been mention of how, if you were to nerf SoC to do more sensible damage, then a non-crit, non-stun, non-AoW judgement would, quite frankly, suck.

What if it applied a limit instead? Say, 50% of the mobs health. You won't stun a raid boss anyway, so you'll never get such silly numbers on him, and in pvp it's still an impressive blow to the face, without being a total one shot. Additionally, they could tweak the percentage in small ways without making ridiculously drastic changes at one end of the spectrum.

Another possibility would be to put the percent limit on art of war itself, but then you might run into a problem where AoW actually does LESS than a regular judgement.

Sure, you can't one shot a Ragefire mob with a judgement, but your crusader strike still can, so worrying about lower level content wouldn't be a problem anyway,

If anyone else likes the idea, then maybe you beta testers can make a suggestion before they just nerf the crap out of it all. :P

RangerSix · 07/23/08, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

EDIT: Someone just told me that SoR is only usable with a 1-handed weapon now. Can anyone confirm this (is seems a little wonky but it would explain the pretty obscene damage scaling)?

Wouldn't that make going from 1 -> 20 'rough' to say the least?

Selenia · 07/23/08, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Because the DK specifically is "Immune to Fear" in Lichbourne form.

Question is whether Turn Evil counts as a fear or some separate mechanic though. Iirc it's a completely separate mechanic, but can't say with 100% certainty.

Dram · 07/23/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Because the DK specifically is "Immune to Fear" in Lichbourne form.

Warriors can be immune to fear, but warlocks can still use Deathcoil on warriors.

Lawgivah · 07/23/08, 2:23 PM

I just checked out SoR on beta... it does not require a specific weapon and can be used with a 2hndr. It was hitting for about 450, same with Martyr, but SoM crits. I don't know, we shall see what new patches bring us.

teeny · 07/23/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dram

Warriors can be immune to fear, but warlocks can still use Deathcoil on warriors.

Because Deathcoil belongs to another category of effect , Horify.

As far as i know , Turn Evil shares the same mechanics with fear effects used by other class , so we probably wont be able to use it against DK in Lichbourne Form.

Darian_TruBlade · 07/23/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dram

Warriors can be immune to fear, but warlocks can still use Deathcoil on warriors.

That's because Deathcoil is a "Horror" effect.

Turn Evil is normally thought of to be classified as a Fear effect, hence the ambiguity on whether it will work on DKs using Lichborne.

Edit: Beaten to the punch.

Kigale · 07/23/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by teeny

I think the spell description is clear enough to answer your question without having it tested on beta : the DK will be vulnerable to all undead-aimed spells , at the exception on turn evil , obviously.

I don't think this is "obvious." Roughly 1/5 of the Horde population is "undead" these spells do not work on them. Would Blizzard allow us to be the Anti-Death Knight class? Maybe, but such an obvious counter doesn't seem like their style.

Selenia · 07/23/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

Roughly 1/5 of the Horde population is "undead" these spells do not work on them.

They're humanoids. They used to be Undead, which meant paladins could fear'em around etc.

The creaturetype "Undead" carries with it certain advantages (fear-immunity, charm-immunity) and certain drawbacks (can be turned, exorcised, holy wrath'ed, shackled etc).

teeny · 07/23/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I don't think this is "obvious." Roughly 1/5 of the Horde population is "undead" these spells do not work on them. Would Blizzard allow us to be the Anti-Death Knight class? Maybe, but such an obvious counter doesn't seem like their style.

Being undead as a "race" and beeing considered as an undead mob are two separate things.
Lets not turn this into some semantics war

Back to thread purpose , i think we lack some "hands-on" feedback on how paladins are doing in Wotlk. Here's an interesting post from the beta forums , it seems the Holy Shock modification completely changed our gameplay mechanics.

WoW Forums -> Nexus Dugneon Run - Holy Talent Review

Edit : link was wrong , sorry.

• frmorrison · 07/23/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I don't think this is "obvious." Roughly 1/5 of the Horde population is "undead" these spells do not work on them. Would Blizzard allow us to be the Anti-Death Knight class? Maybe, but such an obvious counter doesn't seem like their style.

Undead are actually Forsaken.

Pallies (and Priests) are sort of are the Anti-DK class, since they can remove Diseases, which the DK class relies on to dps. In addition, imp cleanse makes the target 30% more resistance to Diseases.

Being able to Exocism and Stun them every time they become Undead isn't good enough to be considered Anti-DK.

atheira · 07/23/08, 4:57 PM

IMO Pally Bubble:Priest/Mage::Lichborne:Priest/Pally

Unless it was a bug in 2.4.3, Mages can now Spellsteal our bubble leaving two classes with the ability to remove it. It would only make sense for Lichborne to be susceptable to Turn Evil, Excorcism, Holy Wrath and Shackle Undead. Hell, they're nerfing the cd for Turn Evil, could this be the reason?

Selenia · 07/23/08, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by atheira

Unless it was a bug in 2.4.3, Mages can now Spellsteal our bubble leaving two classes with the ability to remove it.

That's a clear bug.

Milou · 07/23/08, 5:09 PM

Something I've noticed is holy paladins who spec into sheath of light are picking 5/5 Benediction instead of 5/5 Might. With the change to Pursuit of Justice our current plan is for me, the ret paladin, to be the kings bot with the spec to follow. Holy paladin would spec into improved might freeing Sanctuary for the protection paladin.

I'm still very curious about Judgement of the Wise and how that answers mana concerns for retribution, which will be further amplified with the new far more expensive spells as well as what seems to be the abolishment of dps plate with any signs of intellect. Will Benediction now be required?

Kigale · 07/23/08, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by teeny

Being undead as a "race" and beeing considered as an undead mob are two separate things.
Lets not turn this into some semantics war

.

I agree, and I don't want to turn this into a war of words and their definitions. I know they are 2 different things. But my question still stands.

I'll rephrase it: When a Death Knight uses the talent Lichborne do they become "undead" like the race, or like the mobs, or is there a 3rd type of undead? From this comes the next question: If they are a 3rd type, are they susceptible to Paladin anti-undead spells? Turn Evil intrigues me the most. Is it a "fear" as defined by the Lichborne talent making DKs immune, or is it a different fear mechanic

Dram · 07/23/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Milou

I'm still very curious about Judgement of the Wise and how that answers mana concerns for retribution, which will be further amplified with the new far more expensive spells as well as what seems to be the abolishment of dps plate with any signs of intellect. Will Benediction now be required?

Judgement of the Wise is very potent with the current strength of damage dealing judgements. Also JoW (the debuff) now scales with Attack Power and Spell Power.

flyingtoastr · 07/23/08, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I agree, and I don't want to turn this into a war of words and their definitions. I know they are 2 different things. But my question still stands.

I'll rephrase it: When a Death Knight uses the talent Lichborne do they become "undead" like the race, or like the mobs, or is there a 3rd type of undead? From this comes the next question: If they are a 3rd type, are they susceptible to Paladin anti-undead spells? Turn Evil intrigues me the most. Is it a "fear" as defined by the Lichborne talent making DKs immune, or is it a different fear mechanic

It's very simple people.

All player characters are currently classified as "humanoids". This is for balance issues, it has nothing to do with actual lore. Forsaken (undead on horde side) are still "undead" in the lore sense, they are simply tagged as Humanoids to prevent balance issues for spells like Shackle Undead, Polymorph and Fear. That is it, there is not "2 types" of undead.

In Wrath they are implementing 2 abilities that allow you to temporarily change your classification. Warlocks can become Demons through Metamorphosis while Death Knights can become Undead through Lichbourne. This will change your classification tag and allow/disallow certain abilities on you that could not have been cast before. For example, a Warlock in Demon Form will be immune to Polymorph (as it only affects Beasts and Humanoids) but will be vulnerable to Banish (which can oly be used on Demons and Elementals). The same exact thing goes for Lichbourne, you gain immunity to certain effects that do not affect undead but gain weaknesses to different forms of CC.

This kind of thing is already in game anyway (see Scare Beast on Bearform Druids) so you should have experience with it.

Milou · 07/23/08, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I agree, and I don't want to turn this into a war of words and their definitions. I know they are 2 different things. But my question still stands.

I'll rephrase it: When a Death Knight uses the talent Lichborne do they become "undead" like the race, or like the mobs, or is there a 3rd type of undead? From this comes the next question: If they are a 3rd type, are they susceptible to Paladin anti-undead spells? Turn Evil intrigues me the most. Is it a "fear" as defined by the Lichborne talent making DKs immune, or is it a different fear mechanic

There is no Undead race, they are Forsaken (and actually Humanoids as pointed out previously). Currently in game something is either Undead or it is not. If this does not count as Undead it is in fact new. I am not sure about Turn Undead, but as far as I know it is not a Fear effect nor a Horror effect. Turn Undead also breaks almost immediately on damage.

teeny · 07/23/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I agree, and I don't want to turn this into a war of words and their definitions. I know they are 2 different things. But my question still stands.

I'll rephrase it: When a Death Knight uses the talent Lichbourne do they become "undead" like the race, or like the mobs, or is there a 3rd type of undead? From this comes the next question: If they are a 3rd type, are they susceptible to Paladin anti-undead spells? Turn Evil intrigues me the most. Is it a "fear" as defined by the Lichborne talent making DKs immune, or is it a different fear mechanic

There would be no point specifically mentioning "undead" in the tooltip if the undead-aimed spell do not apply. Note that its just a assumption based on logic , i havent tested it myself. Anyway, since turn undead now works on warlocks' pet , it's pretty obvious the devs want this spell to have (as well as exorcism) a higher pvp value, and thus make it usable against Lichbourn'ed DKs.
Lichbourn is a powerfull ability against warlocks and priests (thus the 5 mins cd) , so i see nothing gamebreaking in paladins beeing able to be part of the downside.