WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 27

Friesia · 07/24/08, 4:59 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

This is very interesting - do you mean that if you're solo, you get the full 60% damage-to-mana conversion all to yourself?

Has anyone tested how Judgements of the Wise assigns its mana in a party situation? I'd assume a Chain Heal-esque AI that looks for whoever's lowest on mana, then always the Paladin himself, but you never know.

Yes, if you're by yourself you get the full 60% back to yourself. However, it's worth noting that you only get back 60% of the damage done, so if you do a crazy 15k judgement on a mob with only 2k health left, you'll get 1200 mana (and not 9000).

As for the assignment of mana, I've been trying to keep an eye on it but have nothing conclusive to share at this time except that it doesn't always return mana to the Paladin. Whether it returns mana to whoever has a lower absolute value or whoever has a lower percentage I haven't been able to find out, but if I get time (away this weekend) I shall try to find out.

Prinsesa · 07/24/08, 5:23 AM

Unless I'm missing something, the 10% damage penalty has been removed from Hand of Salvation.

bellator · 07/24/08, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Regarding Retribution Aura: Does it still have separate ranks and base damage? I still see ranks on WoWHead's WOTLK site.

Ret Aura rank 6 is 62 base damage per hit. 300 spell power would add 19.98 damage with a 6.66% coefficient, or 82 damage per hit.

Yes there are ranks. The coefficient is ontop of the rank.

Originally Posted by GSH

Bellator, you missed the damage you get from unleashing Seal of Wisdom/Justice/Light.

Ah yeah i forgot to test those, if i get a chance will get round to them, but not as important as the other seals etc.

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

This is very interesting - do you mean that if you're solo, you get the full 60% damage-to-mana conversion all to yourself?

Yeah, as friesia said though, its only damage done. However after finishing off one mob you always have stacks of veng and/or art of war, so starting off necxt mob with (stun)+judgement gives you a load of mana.

Oh and if you are ever low on health, JoL,SoL,DS,CS will see your health bar rocketing up, and doesnt add too long to kill the mob. Since judging sow/l does damage, its not a huge loss to use sow/sol for a couple mobs if one bar is running low and you dont want to drink.

Originally Posted by Eir

Incidentally, I'm not sure if I forgot to train spells or what, but my T6/Sunwell tanking set royally sucks for aggro generation with the new mechanisms for tanking in WotLK. I knew it would be bad, but with the lack of Salv, it was pretty horrid trying to tank for people in the gear I'm carrying over from TBC. Time to mix in some of the cast off Ret gear I've saved from DE.

I'm surprised at that, with the buff to SJoR, Hammer and shield of righteousness, we have been given a big threat boost.

Out of interest, has anyone tested to see if Hammer of Righteous builds up stacks of SoV on all the mobs it hits in the was Divine Storm does? If it does then SoR could be the single target seal, and SoV could be the 2-3 mob tanking seal

Originally Posted by DonGuapo

Bellator, you mentioned that seal of command is now 100% base weapon damage up from 70% on your seal coeffients post?

Unfortunately that was a typo. With DS proccing SoR, i'm using SoR and finding that JoL,DS,CS can kill most mobs. Sometimes an extra tap is needed (since mt gear is beyond poor). I usually use SoC when i notice my mana is going low for the quick stun, JoC mana refresh

Eir · 07/24/08, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Hammuhtime

How is it that your set sucks but yet my set that was t5/t6 stuff worked out fine? I had absolutely no issue holding agro. Especially with the changes that i've seen go down so far. I was running around with about 750 spell damage most of the time, trying to mess around with a weapon that had higher weapon dps for our 51 point talent, and threat was never an issue.

T6/Sunwell set sucks for threat because:

1.) you're forced OOM pretty darn quick in non-raid content
2.) others don't have salv so you need higher levels of threat to maintain the same mob control
3.) you don't have access to Shield of Righteousness(one of our 2 new bread and butter skills)
4.) Hammer of the Righteous(the other bread and butter skill) costs 177 mana and does 50 holy damage with your TBC tanking weapon

I have 1001 spell damage in beta, but there's no way I'm going to tank stuff for my Sunwell geared guildies without significant amounts of DPS plate and a new weapon mixed into my gear. It's not like I have an easy time holding aggro off them in live as it is. They all got buffed in beta and now I can't even give them salv.

edit: I'm not saying that Paladin threat will suck at 80 with top of the line gear. By then people will have maximized gear and be making the best use out of HotR and Pally Shield Slam. But if you're a Prot Paladin with shiny Sunwell Pally tanking gear, I'd highly recommend having some DPS plate and a slow, high DPS 1-hander in your bank before WotLK hits.

Hammuhtime · 07/24/08, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by Eir

T6/Sunwell set sucks for threat because:

1.) you're forced OOM pretty darn quick in non-raid content
2.) others don't have salv so you need higher levels of threat to maintain the same mob control
3.) you don't have access to Shield of Righteousness(one of our 2 new bread and butter skills)
4.) Hammer of the Righteous(the other bread and butter skill) costs 177 mana and does 50 holy damage with your TBC tanking weapon

I have 1001 spell damage in beta, but there's no way I'm going to tank stuff for my Sunwell geared guildies without significant amounts of DPS plate and a new weapon mixed into my gear. It's not like I have an easy time holding aggro off them in live as it is. They all got buffed in beta and now I can't even give them salv.

edit: I'm not saying that Paladin threat will suck at 80 with top of the line gear. By then people will have maximized gear and be making the best use out of HotR and Pally Shield Slam. But if you're a Prot Paladin with shiny Sunwell Pally tanking gear, I'd highly recommend having some DPS plate and a slow, high DPS 1-hander in your bank before WotLK hits.

After having tanked for a group earlier today, most of which was t6 quality geared, i can say i really didnt have an issue holding agro. My Shield of the Rigtheous was hitting extremely hard most of the time, and i decided to play around with The unbreakable will to see if sacrafice was worth it, which it really wasn't due to current itemization. The current threat out put of prot right now is through the roof with the judgment issues, but even still when my ShieldoRight is hitting for a decent chunk of damage i really never found threat to be an issue. I try not to concecrate much, due to mammoth increase in mana cost, but with the improvements to avengers shield and our spell damage, don't see a particularly large issue with tanking, other than the lack of mana return.

Eir · 07/24/08, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by Hammuhtime

After having tanked for a group earlier today, most of which was t6 quality geared, i can say i really didnt have an issue holding agro. My Shield of the Rigtheous was hitting extremely hard most of the time, and i decided to play around with The unbreakable will to see if sacrafice was worth it, which it really wasn't due to current itemization. The current threat out put of prot right now is through the roof with the judgment issues, but even still when my ShieldoRight is hitting for a decent chunk of damage i really never found threat to be an issue. I try not to concecrate much, due to mammoth increase in mana cost, but with the improvements to avengers shield and our spell damage, don't see a particularly large issue with tanking, other than the lack of mana return.

You had access to Shield of Righteousness, which a level 70 wouldn't. A level 70 fresh arrival in Northrend will not have SotR and will have an extremely gimpy HoR. At that point, along with the missing salvation, he will notice threat issues that he's not used to on live.

I would hope that at level 75, a Prot Paladin is not still clinging to his Lightbringer set and is instead maximizing his gear to take into account the new mechanics of Paladin tanking.

edit: BTW, 1.6s weapons like The Unbreakable Will are a poor choice for a HoR weapon because they're just too fast. Slower weapons are better, even if they don't have the tanking stats on them.

Prinsesa · 07/24/08, 6:24 AM

What weapons could I preemptively stock on to take advantage of HoR? Slowest one-hand "Rogue" weapon I can find, ala [Spiteblade] or [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]?

One thought that did occur is that even if I had a weapon like that, the lack of STR/AP on Paladin tanking gear would still leave the Hammer damage gimped.

Do you think a complete tanking set revamp is necessary beyond just the weapon, ala [Gauntlets of Dissension] and [Lion's Heart Girdle]?

Hammuhtime · 07/24/08, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by Eir

You had access to Shield of Righteousness, which a level 70 wouldn't. A level 70 fresh arrival in Northrend will not have SotR and will have an extremely gimpy HoR. At that point, along with the missing salvation, he will notice threat issues that he's not used to on live.

I would hope that at level 75, a Prot Paladin is not still clinging to his Lightbringer set and is instead maximizing his gear to take into account the new mechanics of Paladin tanking.

edit: BTW, 1.6s weapons like The Unbreakable Will are a poor choice for a HoR weapon because they're just too fast. Slower weapons are better, even if they don't have the tanking stats on them.

I haven't come across anything really worth replacing my bt/hyjal gear, i did however manage to pull the Summoner's Stone GavelFrom Draktheron, so i'll probably give that a shot.

I knew [The Unbreakable Will] wouldn't be that big of an upgrade due to its fast attack speed, but i figured i'd just mess around with it a bit.

Friesia · 07/24/08, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Unless I'm missing something, the 10% damage penalty has been removed from Hand of Salvation.

I tried playing about with this spell, but I haven't been able to come up with anything useful. In game, the tooltip never mentioned that it reduced your damage output (that I was aware of), but I found multiple sources on t'internet all saying it reduced damage output by 10%.

From my limited testing (it does have a 2min CD) I have to say I didn't really notice much when using this spell. If I used it as I would believe it's meant to be used, which is _before_ you actually pull the aggro, then of course I wouldn't notice any problems. Whether this is because of the Hand, or anything else, I really don't know. As for the damage reduction, I certainly didn't notice anything.

Edit: I should point out that I didn't notice anything in my character sheet either. There was no "-10%" red line or anything.

If I used it when I pulled aggro, then I would lose the aggro eventually, but this could simply be down to the tank reacting and pulling it off me.

Very hard to see how effective this is without some sort of threat meter to measure what should be happening compared to what is happening.

Again, something which I can test out once a friend gets online and we can play about with it.

bellator · 07/24/08, 6:37 AM

Updated with Tanking info (sorry this has become a tad spammy)

I ran tests on all seals to compare to GSH. These are my primary conclusions. I realise some have been done before by GSH and others, but for double checks etc, just went through everything

Seal Coeffients

SoC = 70% Weapon Damage + 20%SP
JoC = 27% Base Weapon Damage + 40% AP + 58% SP (not 100% accurate)
SoB = 35% Weapon Damage
JoB = 27% Base Weapon Damage + 42% AP + 55% SP (not 100% accurate)
SoR = Weapon Speed * 5% * AP + Weaponspeed * 10% * SP
JoR = 45% AP + 73% SP
SoV = 7% AP / tick + 17% SP / tick
JoV = 54% AP + 87% SP

Healing

Flash of Light = 100% SP
Holy Light = 166% SP
Holy Shock = 81% SP
Beacon of Light = 94% SP over the duration

Judgement of L/W

SoL Proc = 18% SP+AP
SoW Proc = 9% SP+AP

DPS

Retribution Aura = 6.66% SP
Hammer of Wrath = 43% SP
Crusader Strike = 110% Weapon damage no SP Coefficient
Divne Storm = Feels like 100% weapon damage no SP coefficient (current bugged as being treated as physical damage)

Tanking

Blessing of Santuary = 0% SP - This blessing needs to be redon/removed. With SJoR scaleing well with AP, as a prot pala I would probably now rank this
4th after bok/m/w. It will never get used
Consecration = 96% over the 8 seconds
Holy Shield = 5% per vlock
Averngers Shield = 13%
Hammer of Righteousness 0% SP (from what I could tell) - This ability is very underwhelming. It doesnt hit for 100% weapon damage. Feels more like 33% per mob hit. Maybe they mean 100% if all 3 mobs are hit. Unless this has a very high threat multiplier or high fixed threat value, I cant see this being of much use. And unless it does have the high threat multiplier then SP weapons will still be the way to go

Still to do:-

Shield of the Righteous
SoL/W judgement damage

Eir · 07/24/08, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Unless I'm missing something, the 10% damage penalty has been removed from Hand of Salvation.

Just did a simple test on beta server with a spider outside Shatt.

Normal dmg, SoR = 237, Consecrate = 224
Dmg with Salv on, SoR = 237, Consecrate = 224

Looks like there's no damage penalty.

Thorgred · 07/24/08, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Updated with Tanking info (sorry this has become a tad spammy)
Seal Coeffients

SoC = 70% Weapon Damage + 20%SP
JoC = 27% Base Weapon Damage + 40% AP + 58% SP (not 100% accurate)
SoB = 35% Weapon Damage
JoB = 27% Base Weapon Damage + 42% AP + 55% SP (not 100% accurate)
SoR = Weapon Speed * 5% * AP + Weaponspeed * 10% * SP
JoR = 45% AP + 73% SP
SoV = 7% AP / tick + 17% SP / tick
JoV = 54% AP + 87% SP
Judgement of L/W
SoL Proc = 18% SP+AP
SoW Proc = 9% SP+AP
Tanking
Blessing of Santuary = 0% SP - This blessing needs to be redon/removed. With SJoR scaleing well with AP, as a prot pala I would probably now rank this
4th after bok/m/w. It will never get used
Consecration = 96% over the 8 seconds
Holy Shield = 5% per vlock
Averngers Shield = 13%
Hammer of Righteousness 0% SP

Looking at those coefficients and the values of certain stats:
Currently 1 Strength = 1.16 Spellpower (assuming this is not changing)

Assuming a paladin has kings, 1 Str = 2.2 Attack Power. With Divine Strength that is now 2.53 Attack Power.
Therefore in terms of item budget, 2.53 AP = 1.16 SP
Meaning that coefficients for spellpower need to be 2.18x larger than coefficients for AP, if spellpower is to remain the highest scaling stat. (and this is without including the possibility of Sheath of Light). Which they are obviously not for seals, so it depends on the other tanking abilities.

Just to clarify: Do retribution Aura, Consecration, Holy Shield or Hammer of Righteousness scale with Attack power, or only spellpower?

Also considering the new seal rotations as Prot: It seems to me that Tankadins will run in, Judge Blood with Wisdom, Seal Vengeance and build up 5-stack. Judge Vengeance w/Wisdom, Seal Righteousness, wait 8 seconds, Judge Vengeance, repeat.

BFG · 07/24/08, 9:38 AM

I haven't seen this mentioned yet - greatly increased numbers on JoL/JoW are probably part of a bigger plan to reduce number of healers in raids: with DPS healing themselves, 4-6 healer setups would become the norm.

• Chicken · 07/24/08, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by BFG

I haven't seen this mentioned yet - greatly increased numbers on JoL/JoW are probably part of a bigger plan to reduce number of healers in raids: with DPS healing themselves, 4-6 healer setups would become the norm.

That does beg the question whether Judgement of Light still only procs on melee attacks. While the boss design might change with a more powerful JoL, bosses which excusively do extra aoe damage to melee aren't all that common inside of raid instances nowadays.

teeny · 07/24/08, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

That does beg the question whether Judgement of Light still only procs on melee attacks. While the boss design might change with a more powerful JoL, bosses which excusively do extra aoe damage to melee aren't all that common inside of raid instances nowadays.

Wether the boss design changes or not , Spiritual Link , if wisely used by shamans , will make JoL even more valuable.
Same goes for Beacon of Light: it could look weak on paper, but could work great in synergy with other classes' spells.

levk · 07/24/08, 11:13 AM

Somebody on wotlkwiki forums said that no paladin channeled spells reset the swing timer. So like holy light doesn't reset it, is there any truth to that?

◊ Merple · 07/24/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by levk

Somebody on wotlkwiki forums said that no paladin channeled spells reset the swing timer. So like holy light doesn't reset it, is there any truth to that?

THAT would redefine battle healer, and would also improve paladin efficiency by letting them be the only healer capable of taking advantage of JoW.

So many possibilities.

Cathela · 07/24/08, 11:33 AM

OP updated. Should now include all relevant information to this point in the thread. Tell me if I've missed anything.

Can someone confirm that HotR does/doesn't trigger seals?

Hylo · 07/24/08, 11:35 AM

I find it a bit odd that Hammer of the Righteous' damage is not normalized. If the intention is indeed that paladins start using "warrior" tanking weapons (high dps, no spelldmg, sub 2.0 attack speed) it seems strange paladins are practically forced to find as slow 1h weapons as possible. This weapon type is already very desirable by fury warriors (well before Titans anyway), rogues and enhancement shamans - maybe even DW deathknights.

Couple of weapons I'd like to see usable as paladin too (warriors are still using quick weapons, right?):
Lydia's Sharpened Swordbreaker, Mace of the Violet Guardian

(here just hoping the [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade] I saved from DE is not totally useless come WotLK

)

Hulabaloon · 07/24/08, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by levk

Somebody on wotlkwiki forums said that no paladin channeled spells reset the swing timer. So like holy light doesn't reset it, is there any truth to that?

Wait, so I, as a Holy Paladin can now stand in melee range with auto attack on, spam heals and still be getting the full mana regen of JoW? I've been dubious about how we're going to match up to the other healers in the xpack, but I just got a whole lot more excited about our prospects now!

◊ Merple · 07/24/08, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Wait, so I, as a Holy Paladin can now stand in melee range with auto attack on, spam heals and still be getting the full mana regen of JoW? I've been dubious about how we're going to match up to the other healers in the xpack, but I just got a whole lot more excited about our prospects now!

Just to relate an experience, when I was first levelling my shaman, my wife and I did a Sunken Temple run with her pally tanking and my shaman healing.

I was specced enhance at the time, and spent the instance dual-weilding my DPS maces in intellect gear, and swinging away in between heals. Between JoW from dual weilding and Shamanistic Rage giving low but noticeable mana returns, I never had an issue with mana, and it was fun as hell.

Probably the funnest healing experience I've ever had, and I've healed on my priest and druid for years.

If this makes it to live, I'll be very tempted to roll a pally.