Stardusty

Does shield specialization increase block value or does it work as a damage absorption bonus? The synergy would be really good if the former.

I tried building a tanking tree, and taking into account the two new high threat moves prot paladins will now have, went for a 0/59/12. I guess as gear improves post 80, points could shift back into prot, but as far as threat goes we no longer have to rely completely on JoR for burst threat. Hurrah!

 

Oxudes

Also, judgment of the wise does not state anywhere it will return mana to you. Meaning ret's mana issues got even worse. I'm not happy with this "major overhaul" neither as prot nor as ret.

 

Zaroua

At 2000 average damage a Judgement, Judgement of the Wise would return 750mp5 to the "raid".

At 2000DPS, a Shadow Priest will return 1000mp5 to the "raid".



What would make the talent really useful is if it picked "smart" targets - targets at low mana or the Ret Paladin himself if he's below a certain %threshold of his mana.

If a Druid specs Moonkin in Darnassus, do the trainers still laugh at him?

 

burghy

Paladin - Skills - World of Warcraft

Is Sacred Shield supposed to be some sort of Earth Shield?

 

• BigSteve

Now that would be really cool if it did that, but it's not likely.

 

Shuror

Checking through the Wowhead WotLK pages, I noticed a breaking change to Judgement of Blood, Command and Martyr.

Judgement of Blood and Martyr scale with 45% of weapon damage. Command scales with 30% of weapon damage. They also have additional unspecified static damage.

Judgement of Command - Spell - World of Warcraft

Judgement of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft

Judgement of Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft

 

Stardusty

30s duration with no cooldown? Apart from the almost free mana cost, its buffbotting all over again.

Useful though for prot paladins with nothing to do.

 

Kuradoberi

Is it known yet how the HoT part works of Sheath of Light when you chain crit? Will it reset like Deep Wounds or 'roll' like Ignite?

Besides, that, sure looks strange that one of the better 'looking' healing talent is in the Retribution tree ( for now )

PS : sorry for crossposting.

 

Zaroua

I'm no Ret Paladin expert, but wouldn't the extra Judgement of Blood damage greatly increase mana gained through Spiritual Attunement? Same with the increased raid synergies increasing overall Seal of Blood damage, thus giving the Ret Paladin even more mana back. And obviously Seal/Judgement of the Martyr for Alliance Paladin would also make a huge change for them.

If a Druid specs Moonkin in Darnassus, do the trainers still laugh at him?

 

Palados

Nah, it's completely OK. It makes HYBRIDS more viable. Holy is buffed to the extend it will be nerfed I think. 2 raid wide aoe spells, instant HL after shock crit, LoH not draining mana and 16(talented) min CD. Constantly having 10% haste due to judgements on boss, etc

 

Zaroua

Double Shockadin 2v2 team might have some potential in WotLK: http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000 would give both Paladins an obscene amount of mana regeneration, coupled with Spiritual Attunement. Overall, it certainly feels like Shockadins could have some serious potential in PvP.



In a complete different train of thought: I've been thinking about the HoSalv changes and the possibility of using a Sheath of Light/Holy Guidance/Judgement of the Wise build (http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000). Holy Shock/instant Holy Light bots, casting HoSalv as needed and spamming Judgements to give good returns to the raid with Judgements of the Wise. Reactive Healing - Holy Shocks to be used either offensively or defensively depending on healing requirements - and the ability to instant cast Holy Lights every 15 seconds. Would certainly turn Holy Paladins into buff bots.

And with the "second" talent spec that Blizzard talked about, a simple talent change could turn you the Holy/Ret Paladin into a more conventional Holy/Prot build for certain encounters.

If a Druid specs Moonkin in Darnassus, do the trainers still laugh at him?

 

bellator

Been looking over all this. Whilst a number of things look good. Couple of questions remain:-

1) How will a Prot Paladin cope mana wise in 5-mans etc
2) What will a Prot paladin do in encounters requireing only 1 tanks. Im Devo Aura, Divine Guardian and BoK can all be taken by a holy pala. So they will just be sitting there.
3) With JoBlood/martry probably being the main dps seal, will the mana returned by judgements of the wise be a big improvement of sanctified judgement. If not, still have a mana problem for ret.

 

Putts

Beacon of Light looks pretty incredible...assuming that the 2k healing value is accurate, that's a maximum potential of 50k healing done, with the threat (assumingly) attributed to the target. Granted, the likelihood of every raid member needing 2k worth of healing while standing within 10 yards of the tank is low, but regardless, I can see this being extremely valuable for threat generation for a tank.

 

Palados

1. As soon as you are hitted and healed you are OK.

2. 2 DG > 1 DG. JotJ is not bad too to save GCD and rage of warriors who had to TC. Turning protadin OT into Hand-bot is very viable option.

3. I guess it will be quite balanced. Having infinite mana would be like having infinite energy/rage, not really good for balance, is it?

 

Smurrf

I like Hand of Sacrifice for being the pally OT now...no worries that overwriting Kings will result in tank-gib, and the mana back from taking the MT's damage will enable me to keep up threat as an OT.

*Really* like the Shield of Righteousness. This was something I'd never expected to see Paladins have...and I don't care if it costs mana or not.

I'm not really liking the current iteration of Hand of Salvation. I understand why it's been dropped from the blessings, but something that reduces the amount of damage someone else can do? Too easy to grief other people with. Small grief, but a grief nonetheless.

Auras...kinda touchy on that one. I've never liked seeing Ret aura in the Ret tree...the name fits, obviously, but it's not the goal of the tree. I'd like to see Ret and Devo auras combined into one (even if with reduced effectiveness of each), and something like the following added:

Crusader Aura
All raid members within 30 yards gain a 5% chance of resisting Fear and Stun effects, and gain a 1% critical strike chance.

I just don't like seeing the Ret aura in the Ret tree...just doesn't fit the theme of the tree, and isn't all that useful for Ret PvP, from what I understand.


Edited for clarification.

 

Palados

Well, with 50% damage increased talend and AP->SP conversion it could be quite good against DW player. Imagine an aura that strikes back for 200 unmitigatable damage each time you are hitted. We just don't know how SP will converted into extra retri aura damage yet (be it extra 20, 200 or 2k added).

 

bellator

1.I realise paladins have spiritual attunement, but the damage a paladin takes and healing he receives in 5/10mans is far less than in 25-mans due to the number of healers in the group, thus the mana he gets is a problem and his rotation suffers a lot

2. In a min/maxing sense on a solo tank fight, having a prot paladin there for JotJ and as a hand-bot is a waste of a space when a dedicated healer or dpser could be bought in. Yes they can do some things, but they will not be desirable.

3. We're not talking infinite mana, but currently our mana consumption without and mp5 on gear is too low to allow for certain ideal rotations of spells. With us forced into warrior gear we need extra mp5 from elsewhere, unless you wantt paladin dps to be a simple White+Seal+CS affair.

 

Smurrf

That is true, and when I wrote the above, I had missed the Imp'd Ret Aura talent, which makes it more useful.

For Divine Guardian, seems to me that it'd be more in line with something Ret or Holy picks up than a Prot would...unless the Prot expects to not be gainfully employed as an actual tank very often. Perhaps a PvP talent to help in BG's? I'm not saying it's a bad talent, just that the placement seems off, and may even be in the wrong tree.

Also, Guarded by the Light appears to give us a reason to actually want to pick up Parry and Dodge once again, and does give a boost to mana efficiency in 5mans or other places where one is outgeared for the instance. Probably will still have to swap some gear out (less block, more p/d), but at least you'll be able to tank in those circumstances in actual tanking gear. (edit: I would have been happier had GotL been determined by Blocks alone, instead of P/D's.)

 

• frmorrison

Ret will soon scale with spell damage by same amount, so when someone hits the Ret Pally in PvP they can not going to like it .


The only things that need to be fleshed out is the mana return from Ret (60% of damage caused gives mana) and if one of the 3 group member is always that Ret Paladin. This is outstanding for solo play though.

I am happy Holy Shock is getting buffed and there is a neat AoE heal with a Pally flavor, but they cost a lot of mana. In raids you will be doing Hand of Sanc for SA, but how about 5-mans?


The new trees are great, the new talents enforce that Prot uses Warrior tanking gear and Ret still uses Warrior dps gear. The only problem is they seem too good and they will likely be nerfed .

 

Hylo

Nobody has noted yet that the updated Conviction increases the crit chance of ALL spells and attacks by 5%. This should include heals too, and it's not that painful to include in your holy build (example). +16% HL and Holy Shock crit from talents sure is nice.

 

Altirias

Yes, but take into account the benefits of improved devotion aura (that might be usefull if no prot pal, or in 5 / 10 men), Divine Guardian, BoK... 5% spell crit sure is nice for holy paladins, but I'm not really sure if it will be worth the trade off if you're not certain to have a prot pally able to provide thoses benefits.
But the mixing of spell and melee hit / haste / crit surely leaves some space for nice hybrids builds that may prove themselves efficient.

We need some figures to sort it out, but I feel it might be the way to go for paladins in the expansion. Even though there are nice things in the holy tree, I think paladin's main role will move towards tank / dps + support and occasionnal heal. Remember blizzard guys talking about balancing the content for only 5-6 healers in WoTLK ? When I see other classes talents, I feel the one class that has more to gain and less to loose to switch role may be ours.

 

Blackthought

It looks like a holy/prot build will be able to get 60% dispel resistance on hand spells if Blessed Hands and Stoicism stack. That would be very nice for the arenas.

 

Palados

Disagree with Altirias. With HS changes, insta HL and virtually 10% spell haste added via talents paladins will be the most powefull single target reactive healers. If now druids and shamans save NS for oh-shit moments each 3 min, paladins will have it up each 0.5min or so.

Only thing I could agree - there are extremely interesting 'support' builds, up to the point when supporter *could* be more viable in raid than 'pure' DPS/healing/tanking class.

Probably, there will be even a new role of buffer/debuffer in raids, taken by paladins. And no, it won't be simple reblessing like in MC times. It would be quite complex job of applying buffs and debuffs on mobs and raid members, throwing big insta heals or dealing some damage/OT on the way.

 

Cathela

Looking at the new talents, especially Ret, puts me in mind of my early days as a paladin in 5-mans way back in the first 3-4 months of the game, playing the role of group-utility and problem-fixer. They aren't exactly reversing the specialization of roles that TBC brought, but they're definitely trying to bring all specs back to the "center" a bit.

EDIT: Oh, snap: Hammer of the Righteous can be used with a two-hander!