• Avitus

Yes, but the whole argument is with what setup did you do your progression tries and ultimately kill Brut, not how you manage to farm him later on.

You can farm any boss with a suboptimal group, but for progression, there's a pretty direct correlation between how efficient your setup is to how much of a hard time you will have for your first kill. Following that thought, a more casual approach/guild will usually demand less harsh raid reshuffling/stacking (due to more limited resources in personnel or "being friendly") and just go with what they have.

All I'm saying is, if you look at the incredibly shaky healing when you're first learning Brut, most guilds would call it an "asset" to have a ret paladin there for JoW/JotC/JoL. Sure it's possible without a ret, but that was never the argument. The argument is how desirable is he, in a progression environment and in this example, I'd rate the desirability very high.


And here's where we disagree again. You count "convenience" as an acceptable part of the missing 25%. That doesn't fly when you're stacking up for a maximum performance raid for a progression kill. You'd rather take every inconvenience there is if you can squeeze out a few percent performance here and there.

I'd argue that you're grossly underplaying the worth of CS judgement refresh in a progression raid (again no one cares about how you do farm). The first few Brut kills, you try to minimize the number of healers you have to meet the high DPS demand in non-sunwell gear (a large number of first kills are with only 6 healers). Now claiming two of these (holy paladins) sticking up the bare minimum of JotC and JoW (or even one of the holy's if you have a protadin) will cause no performance loss in such a progression kill and not having to do it is just a "convenience" is simply underplaying CS refresh.

It's a very real benefit of having a retadin, not just a convenience. One we won't be able to provide in WotLK anymore.


Regarding 75% top raid DPS, I'm talking about the "absolute cap" on DPS not average DPS. Sure, between my ~2.1k and the top ~2.8 of rogues/locks/hunters there's a spectrum of people of the same classes doing more and less DPS, but the point is that this spectrum is only limited by their skill/gear/performance in that fight.

I'm basically saying if you take out skill/gear/performance, you get a very real maximum of 75% top raid DPS, past which you can never get. No one cares about skill/gear/performance in such a comparison, that's left up to the individual and a given when you're talking about best case scenarios.

There's some classes (mages, fury warriors, enhancement shamen etc.) that probably fall behind 2.8k (top raid DPS) as their absolute cap, but by very little and this is where I'd argue we need to be, if we stop providing a real benefit and just become a "convenience" buff.


That "significant utility" is exactly what's under question here and as with everything, there's a spectrum, the less utility, the more personal performance you expect a class to bring. Rogues should always maintain top position due to non-existent utility, but if you watch closely in TBC, that's not always true (with classes such as warlocks/hunters frequently surpassing them, despite providing some limited utility).

I'm amused despite my very clear disclaimer, you'd say I'm dismissing Cath for being casual. I think again, you have a problem grasping the concept of a sliding spectrum. Everything is relative.


Yep, I had the same experience you had in BT, but unfortunately for alliance retadins, the gap widens the further you gear up in Sunwell, at least for straight out mechanical fights such as Brutallus.

And I agree, a Retadin is worth his spot right now even if he only does 75%, but I argue this won't be enough in WotLK with what seems to me like reduced raid utility.

 

Anedris

I dunno as these thresholds (75%, whatever) are any use. Obviously if you have enough utility it can justify very subpar DPS - TBC shadow priests are the case in point. I don't imagine Blizzard will allow any spec to have *that* much utility again if they can help it, because it was way out of line, but part of the dilution of shadow priest utility has been to give some of it (mana restoration) to retadins (along with survival hunters and maybe frost mages).

(I am not suggesting that retadins will attain a new primary role as mana batteries, but we can't know how much Judgments of the Wise will mean until we see what all the mana restoring tools available on the raid scene are, how much mana various classes require, whether they do or do not need more, and whether retadins are or are not a good way to get that needed mana.)

I would also argue that we've seen some very clear examples of bleeding edge guilds making poor decisions (running zero resto druids, zero protadins, etc.) and simply bulldozing through content anyways through sheer individual skill, time commitment, and consumable use. Obviously it doesn't matter what you can kill a boss with once you have it on farm, but equally obviously the way it was done first isn't necessarily the best way to do it.

Quite simply:

- A retadin will do less damage than a "pure" DPSer
- Whatever utility the retadin brings must make up for the gap between the retadin's DPS and that of a pure DPSer (with everything taken into account, such as how much of that utility can be covered by holydin and at how much inconvenience to the holydin - keeping in mind that "inconvenience" means "reduced healing throughput/attention" - and so on)

 

• Avitus

Case in point, that's exactly what I'm discussing. Is the currently advertised utility in WotLK enough to justify the personal DPS? Or will there be a relative DPS increase? Or will there be a utility increase?

That's it.

 

• Amera

I really don't understand why people are arguing with you so much because you haven't said anything particularly controversial. It's a pretty simple argument: DPS + utility = raid spot. One of our utility abilities have changed, and so we wonder if our personal DPS has gone up enough to compensate. Why is this so controversial, and why are people jumping down his throat?

Can we stop discussing this now until we get more information and actual numbers?

Fight Club Spectator
Sky of <Transcended>
Selaste of <Serious Casual>

 

Thorgred

With Regards to tanking:

I'm looking at the new smithing crafted armor (Tempered Titansteel, Daunting Legplates) and what they would mean for tankadins.

Going with a few major assumptions here:
* At some stage in the endgame, a player will be able to obtain a set of gear focusing on the stats of +Stamina, +Strength, +Defense
* This set of gear will have stats equal to or greater than the Blacksmithing crafted items such as http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/august/blacksmithing/blacksmithing_10.jpg, and be present in equal or greater stat ratios.

Make sense so far? At lv80 you're going to be able to obtain a set of gear that is at least as powerful as a full 'daunting' tanking set at some point in raiding.
Going from the iLevel formulas to calculate the ratios of stats present on each piece of gear, i determined that a paladin tank at lv80 wearing a full set of Daunting or equivalent gear would have the following stats when buffed with Fort, Blood Pact, MotW, Strength of Earth, Battle Shout, Might and Kings. (and taking the Divine Strength, Combat Expertise and Sacred Duty talents)


1900 Stamina. 3400 Attack Power. 600 Spellpower.
(1900 stam would translate into around 23000 HP when buffed)

However if the paladin specs into Sheath of Light in a 48/23 build, he could add an additional 1000 Spellpower onto this amount. Factor in that if a player is not taking Hammer of the Righteous he probably will also be using a Spellpower weapon for an additional 250-300 spellpower. An additional 1300 Spellpower isn't to be glossed over, and i'm thinking it will outshine HoR in terms of threat.


And now, take the scaling values of spells:
Judgement Base Damage: 0.58*AP + .36*SP
Judgement of Righteousness: Additional 25% damage (1.25*(0.58*AP + .36*SP))
Judgement of Vengeance: Additional 10% for each Vengeance dot up to +50% (1.50*(0.58*AP + .36*SP))

Vengeance Dot: 0.034*SP+0.07*AP per application per 3 secs: (0.034*SP+0.07*AP)*30 damage over 18 secs for a full stack.
Vengeance hit: 0.012*SP per hit on a target with 5 stacks.

Righteousness Hit: (0.05*AP+0.1*SP)*swing speed

Shield of Righteousness: 200% block value + Additional threat (with this gear, a paladin will have roughly 700 Block Value)
Consecrate: 904+.32*AP+.32*SP over 8 seconds.



I'm thinking that in terms of threat, it would probably be much better for a paladin to spec Sheath of Light than Hammer of Righteousness. Slightly less survivability, but its what i'm thinking of for 5-mans, heroics and 10mans.

 

yamamoto

I think your vastly underestimating Ret DPS, Avitus. For most fights, Ret easily pushes the 85% threshold compared to other DPS'ers, and, in some fights are necessary (M'uru, KJ) and its these fights where we can push PAST the 90% threshold, while debuffing Crusader and, more importantly, Wisdom.

In terms of Crusader Stike not refreshing Judgements, I'm perfectly fine with it. If they don't buff CStrike, I'll be ok, if they give it something else, I'll be very excited. Come expansion, the only important judgement will be Wisdom. Light was lackluster already as Ret on Beta and will be even more lackluster if a Holy Paladin debuffs it with their coeffficients.

Right now, I'm liking Ret alot on Beta compared to other classes. Our blessings are now up to par (thanks to 50% Imp Might) and if those data-mines are correct, Kings/Might will be even more valuable. And yes, right now, if your a PvE Retadin you WILL be getting Kings.

JotW is the only thing scaring me. I havent read much about it recently, and I just hope it doesnt randomly pick mana users and tosses them mana, but is smart like Chain Heal.

 

Hulabaloon

Whether Ret easily pushes 85% or not right now has nothing to do with how they will perform in WotLK, and has nothing to do with Avitus' concerns about Ret raid viability in WotLK.

 

flyingtoastr

And since we don't know shit about WotLK gearing and itemization in endgame we can't make any call either way.

As it is right now though Ret has gotten a new armor-piercing attack (DS), scaling "spells" (Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Judgements), additional "mana battery" utility (and if spriests are any indication people won't care too much about your DPS if you bring the sweet manas), stacking raidwide haste and the most powerful scaling Judgement of Wisdom. The last alone will justify your raid spot.

But again, until we know what gearing looks like for all the classes we can't say. You can't really make the argument that "ret is fine" or that "ret will suck because they nerfed myah CS" yet, so it might be better if everyone took a step back and twiddled their thumbs until we do see some raiding gear.

Don't just look at pure coefficients. Think about what you are losing for speccing Sheath. 15% damage on your Shields, 10-15% damage on seals, off-tanking mana efficiency, Crusade not always applying, etc.

 

Danath

Except the fact that developers clearly said they would improve Ret raid viability by increasing DPS and support - and they did both actually, so good that now Retadins have admittedly very high DPS, this coming both from Blizzard sources and the average beta tester. Hell, WoW Insider even dedicated a whole article (for reference, Hybrid Theory: State of PvP in the Wrath beta - WOW Insider) on the fact that beta Retadins are totally overpowered in their opinion in PvP. We should actually hope to maintain our DPS and overall features as they are with a few tuning, because chances are we could get nerfs rather than buffs. The whole Beta World is screaming against Retadins already.

 

Nisall

With the new CS it looks like SoC might actually become the premier PvE seal again. The current dps difference between SoC and SoB will be more than covered by the fact of a garanteed 70% wpn dmg proc every 6sec.

 

• frmorrison

Does the current CS always proc SoC? Assuming you did a CS every 6 seconds, that would make SoC 10 ppm.


People are crying about Retadin dps because likely most Beta players had been ganked by a Paladin using the formerly bugged JoJ.

 

Cathela

You're still not making any kind of argument beyond some vague "well, it's easier for more relaxed guilds" and "it's only hard when you're progressing". (And again, with regard to the comments made by others, I don't find the "casual" comparison offensive or even inaccurate, but I still haven't seen a concrete argument as to why it matters.)

Certainly he doesn't start doing less damage after you've killed him once. Does a guild that had 6 months to farm T6 somehow have to meet more stringent group-composition requirements than a guild that went straight from an Illidan first kill into Sunwell? Does getting a few T6 belts and one other piece of loot open up some large amount of slack in raid performance? I don't see it.

The fact of the matter on Brut is that the challenging parts of healing are (a) handling stomps, (b) making sure healing doesn't fall off while an MT healer is running from burn, and (c) healing burn. These leave plenty of opportunities for holy paladins to refresh judgements without endangering the raid. We started doing this fairly early in our Brut attempts and to my memory it never caused a wipe. This is one fight of course, but my contention is that most fights provide similar opportunities for non-Ret paladins to keep judgements up.

If the Ret paladin is your third paladin in the raid, I'll still maintain that even in WotLK a third blessing will be a much greater benefit to the raid than the CS effect.

How big is this "large number" of guilds that get their Brut first kills with 6 healers?

If you want to do it that way, then sure, I can see how having a Ret paladin would be essential if you want to keep judgements up. But I'm not sure why anyone would want to. We had no trouble meeting the enrage timer once we started doing "serious" (i.e., full consumables) attempt, even though we're a more "relaxed" guild. I can't imagine how a bleeding-edge guild would have trouble meeting the dps requirement with the standard 7 healers.

And while I don't put the gap at 25%, yes I do rate the "convenience" of CS as part of what has to make up the gap. But only part, and in my opinion a very small part. In TBC, the group dps buff and the benefits of having another paladin. In WotLK, the raidwide 3% haste, JotW, and the stronger JoW will be more important than the CS effect would've been.

Has anyone in this thread ever claimed that "DPS + utility = raid spot" isn't true?

All I've said is that I think the loss of the CS effect isn't going to make much difference. Not sure how that counts as jumping down someone's throat.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Cathela

I don't think CS is always proccing SoC (though I'll check this afternoon to be sure). I think what people are saying is that CS is treated as a weapon swing for your current seal, meaning it has a chance to proc SoC like any other swing.

If you have a 3.5-speed weapon, then CS every 6 seconds gives you 58% more weapon swings, meaning you'll have 58% more SoC procs or you'll do 58% more damage with SoB, meaning it doesn't change the relative values of the two.

EDIT: Dammit, sorry about the double post.

EDIT AGAIN: Working on updating the OP.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Nisall

"An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage and proc's any currently active Seal." I read this as a 100% proc chance for any active seal. If this isn't the case then SoC and SoB differences remains as it is in live.

 

flyingtoastr

The tooltip is simply "An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage." There is nothing in it about proccing seals, it just happens that way because of the change to seal coding.

 

Nisall

I need to learn to read properly. So ignore my last 2 posts.

 

Palados

I am not in such a guild, but I can clearly see it. If you compete for server/realm/world first that killing him on your 5th or 7th pull is a big difference and killing him on second day vs first day is a huge difference. Every small bit is important and keep in mind, that those guilds do not know any tactics for many bosses. If you don't know what you should expect, won't you try to make a raid with highest dps/hps possible, knowing that for first kills each minute counts?

 

Cathela

That wouldn't really be the case on Brutallus, first because he's the second boss of the zone and it's very unlikely you'd be in a minute-to-minute race, and second because he was already seen and tested on the PTR before he appeared on live. But okay, sure, let's look at a hyper-optimized absolutely perfect can't-get-any-better raid. Everything's been analyzed down to the micron, and you've assembled the best possible 25 raiders you can.

Is a Ret paladin part of this perfect raid? I don't know.

If a Ret paladin is part of this raid, is the CS judgement refresh the tipping point that makes him viable? I kinda doubt it, but I suppose it's possible.

Even if it is, does it matter? No. There are 30 specs in the game, and only 25 raid slots. You're not going to have room for everyone. What matters for raid viability is whether the spec is strong enough that a player in the real world playing that spec is on a fair footing when competing for a raid slot. And in my experience, Ret meets that test with or without the CS refresh effect.

Again, I certainly don't take offense when someone points out that my guild is more relaxed than others, but it's true, as someone pointed out earlier, that we're comfortably within the top 2% of PvE progression. Are things different for the top 1%, or the top 0.5%, or the top 0.1%? Sure. Are things so different that suddenly CS becomes crucial to Ret keeping a raid slot? I suppose it's possible. Has anyone offered an explanation as to why, aside from vague phrases about how "it's harder for those guilds" and "farming is different"? No.

And just to go back to where this discussion began: 3% raidwide haste, raid mana return from JotW, stronger JoW than any other spec of paladin. Any one of those is more raid utility than the CS refresh effect.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Eligos

High-end progression guilds put a much larger premium on min-maxing for a plethora of reasons. First, the majority of the raid tends to be under geared for progression encounters, which simply isn't always the case WRT "relaxed" guilds. Because of this lesser pace, guilds that aren't pushing endgame content have access to gear, outside of the particular encounter they're up to, to compensate (ie. Badge, PvP or Instance loot that did not exist, or, could not have been attained by progression guilds prior to specific encounters). Let alone the fact that these "casual" guilds tend to have access to far more information than any progression guild could ever hope for prior to its first attempt.

For instance, new mechanics tend to, after some time, proliferate throughout all levels of WoW. So, a mechanic that actually requires an entire progression guild to learn on the fly, can be something a "casual" guild can take for granted by the time it first hits the originating encounter. Let alone the fact that formalized strategies that these "casual" guilds know to work tend to not be available for progression guilds without the requisite banging-of-head-into-wall. This, by the way, is an enormous drag on performance, since, just because a guild cleared a specific encounter doesn't mean they initially cleared it the right way. When your guild is throwing countless hours at a specific encounter, tying to figure out its mechanics, frequently wiping, all the while trying to compete with the rest of their faction/realm/country/world, you look for any way to optimize your raid's performance, to justify the time you're asking everyone to spend (remember, these guilds tend to not even know if a specific encounter is actually working as intended), and raid stacking is often the most efficient way to accomplish this (you try justifying a five hour wipe-fest to 24 other people when you're carrying suboptimal classes).

Once the encounter is cleared, and strategies are formalized, overall performance improves as the raid becomes more familiar with the particular ins-and-outs of your strategy, and as the strategy itself is refined. As the locks go by, instead of having, say, five people left standing after your first kill, you'll have ten, instead of just missing the enrage, well, you get the idea. Suddenly, you no longer need to be as stringent in your raid's composition, and the alts/off-specs begin to rear their heads. Which, well, is fine, but also kind frustrating, as off-spec evangelists begin to post their most recent "accomplishments," often months after the encounter was relevant.

"Frustrating" you ask? Well, the issue is that things aren't fine for a specific spec if they're not deemed valuable by progression guilds, because, if they're not, they're simply not taken to raids. So, I suppose raid "viability" has different meanings to different people, but so long as a glass ceiling exists, regardless of the level, I would assume it should matter to any proponent of a specific spec. Opinions on a spec trickle down, not up, and if progression guilds deem a spec to be suboptimal, the general consensus wont be all that far off.

All of this is a rather long winded way of saying that "casual" guilds tend to be at the handicap tees whenever they get to an encounter, and because of this, min-maxing is far less of a priority.