WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 15

Shandara · 07/21/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

I would use something different for leveling with a Ferocity pet (have Charge in there), but I'd use that for raiding as a non-BM Hunter (or one without the 51 point talent). Call of the Wild in its current state just isn't very good and not worth picking up imo.

I would argue that Call of the Wild is better (or at least less bad) than Heart of the Phoenix, since you can not control when the pet revives and it's likely to die immediatedly again in a raid situation where your pet would die (AOE, fires on the ground).

One thing I don't know yet is _where_ the pet revives. Is it on the spot or at your side?

Æthien · 07/21/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

I haven't tested the AP boost yet, I've been meaning to - and I cant' seem to find the effect in the spell database.

As for saving it for when you know it's going to crit... at 3/3 Cobra Strikes it's always up. I had Cobra Strikes refresh itself over and over at 3/3 when I went out and played with it. I don't think you have to worry about that.

That's just insane.
How does it look with invigoration?
Does that also proc at every crit at the moment?

Because getting 2% mana back each ~1.5 second means you'll be getting more mana than you can spend.

mako · 07/21/08, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

With 16 points the Cunning tree can pretty much pick up everything worthwhile for raiding:

2/2 Cobra Reflexes
1/1 Dash/Dive
3/3 Spiked Collar
3/3 Avoidance
2/2 Feeding Frenzy
2/2 Cornered
2/2 Owl's Focus
1/1 Roar of Recovery

And yeah, Ferocity definitely can:

2/2 Cobra Reflexes
1/1 Dash/Dive
2/2 Loyalty
3/3 Spiked Collar
3/3 Avoidance
1/1 Heart of the Phoenix
3/3 Spider's Bite
1/1 Rabid

I would use something different for leveling with a Ferocity pet (have Charge in there), but I'd use that for raiding as a non-BM Hunter (or one without the 51 point talent). Call of the Wild in its current state just isn't very good and not worth picking up imo.

The Cunning tree actually looks like it could potentially far out damage the Ferocity tree between Feeding Frenzy and Cornered. But, I could not imagine a pet without the Ferocity tree's Loyalty talent after actually playing with it. It is just ridiculously good.

The Tenacity tree is just really unimpressive to me though.

Call of the wild as a BM hunter looks like it could be worthwhile. 20 seconds of 5% more AP for your party every 3.5 min would be significant with if your party stacks cooldowns (bl, bf/ar, tbw, etc), especially if you're in a group with high-ap classes like warriors. At worst it's only 1 talent point for a moderate group dps increase. I'd say it's not much different than giving yourself & pet +25% ap for the duration instead.

Sean · 07/21/08, 4:01 PM

The Pet revives right where it dies, if I remember correctly.

And I'd definitely pick up Call of the Wild as BM. I just don't think it's worth it over the others as Marks or Survival Hunter.

Btw, I just went and tested out the Raptor (spec'd BM to get Cobra strikes so I could force it to Crit heh)...

It procs Savagery - Savagery - Spell - World of Warcraft

Savagery
Damage increased by 10%.
30 seconds remaining

That's kind of sick. Cobra Strikes + Longevity = that ability would be on your Raptor almost constantly.

Sean · 07/21/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Æthien

That's just insane.
How does it look with invigoration?
Does that also proc at every crit at the moment?

Because getting 2% mana back each ~1.5 second means you'll be getting more mana than you can spend.

At a 60% rate with Rank 3/3, it might as well proc every Crit.

Shandara · 07/21/08, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

The Pet revives right where it dies, if I remember correctly.

And I'd definitely pick up Call of the Wild as BM. I just don't think it's worth it over the others as Marks or Survival Hunter.

Btw, I just went and tested out the Raptor (spec'd BM to get Cobra strikes so I could force it to Crit heh)...

It procs Savagery - Savagery - Spell - World of Warcraft

Savagery
Damage increased by 10%.
30 seconds remaining

That's kind of sick. Cobra Strikes + Longevity = that ability would be on your Raptor almost constantly.

That's fairly powerful, also considering the skill says it increases attack power instead of being a straight damage %.

With cobra strikes refreshing itself and lasting 10 seconds, what kind of uptime are you seeing?

Sean · 07/21/08, 4:26 PM

Constant up time - it has 3 charges when it procs. Each time your pet crits with a special it eats 1 charge. Every time I refresh it it goes back up to 3 charges. Your pet has its own GCD, so it's not like it spams off abilities - it's doing specials at about the same rate that you are and unless you go on a really dry crit run with Steady Shot then Cobra Strikes is going to be up constantly.

I went out and killed a few things with it and I just had the Cobra spell effect over my head and it's little Rattle sound effect go off in a chain.

Æthien · 07/21/08, 4:37 PM

Any Idea on your mana regen?

Zurai · 07/21/08, 4:40 PM

I dunno about Sean, but I have to stay in Viper while leveling, even with Invigoration or Thrill of the Hunt/Hunting Party. It's not quite so bad with the Survival spec unless I use Exploding Shot - but it's such an amazing ability that it's silly not to use it.

mako · 07/21/08, 4:41 PM

Even with a wind serpent or other cunning pet?

alienangel · 07/21/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Wild Quiver: Free damage. Increase your hasted state to a greater degree with greater frequency, get more free shots. Should be fun with 5/5 Imp. Hawk.

FWIW, Imp. Hawk (i.e. Quick Shots) only procs on autoshots. If Wild Quiver's extra attacks aren't classed as extra autoshots, Quick Shots probably won't proc on them anyway.

Lhivera · 07/21/08, 4:52 PM

How does Explosive Shot worth with Misdirection? Each tick consume a charge, or do all three ticks count as a single attack?

Sean · 07/21/08, 4:54 PM

Yeah, I'd have to stay in Viper while leveling too - Invigoration is nice but it's not *that* nice. It does let you go a lot longer before you have to drink, it's just not infinite mana by any means. Well, if you stay at Rank 1 Steady Shot it is I guess. I get like 113 mana per pet special Crit right now.

It's kind of hard to judge the value on Invigoration without Blessing of Wisdom, Judgment of Wisdom, and Totems, a Raid environment, ect.

The Roar of Recovery on Cunning pets is nice... but Ferocity pets are just so ridiculous right now that there's no way I'd use a Cunning pet.

Sean · 07/21/08, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

FWIW, Imp. Hawk (i.e. Quick Shots) only procs on autoshots. If Wild Quiver's extra attacks aren't classed as extra autoshots, Quick Shots probably won't proc on them anyway.

Unfortunately Wild Quiver is currently broken, so there's no way to test this out to be sure.

Slaughtt · 07/21/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

FWIW, Imp. Hawk (i.e. Quick Shots) only procs on autoshots. If Wild Quiver's extra attacks aren't classed as extra autoshots, Quick Shots probably won't proc on them anyway.

It says "An additional shot" which may very well be another auto shot, since it's not worded like Lightning Overload. However it is more than likely it is not classed as an autoshot, just like windfury would give an extra attack.

IF it was counted as another autoshot, does this mean it could possibly proc on itself? And then the nerf-bat comes.

Also, unsure if this has been said, but concerning the MM tree, while under Rapid Recuperation and you get an Imp. Steady proc, that effect is multiplicative and not additive, correct?

Edit: I'd like to add, if you've tested the MM tree whilst leveling, how's the mana usage going even through Viper?

Edit2: When Wild Quiver starts to work again, check the combat log to see if it registers as an Autoshot possibly. That's my theory that it would register as one, but not have the chance to proc effects such as itself and quick shots, even things like tsunami talisman, madness of the betrayer and so on.

Trogdor · 07/21/08, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gearknight

Serpent sting definitely costs a GCD, therefore it replaces a steady shot. We'll all eventually find enough haste in wotlk to get steady shot down to 1.5s, so we're basically doing 2 things: Spamming the GCD with specials, and letting autoshot fire. So your choices are:

40 steady shots plus 1 minute of autoshots
36 steady shots, 4 serpent stings, 1 minute of autoshots, all multiplied by 1.03

Your numbers look a little fishy to me, so I'm going to come up with my own:
5000 AP (3000? come on, I often top 4000 in TBC), 40% crit, 120 weapon DPS, 70 ammo DPS
3.0 weapon speed with 33% haste (including quiver), which is the haste that caps steady shot at 1.5s
Serpent Sting = 5000*0.1 + 1210 = 1710 base nature damage
Auto Shot = (120 + 70 + 5000/14)*3.0 = 1641 base damage, 3775 crit (2.3 modifier), 2495 average
Steady Shot = (120+70)*3.0 + 5000*0.2 + 280 = 1850 base damage, 4255 crit (2.3 modifier), 2812 average
Let's assume boss armor reduces physical damage done by about 30%,

So the average Auto is 1746 and the average Steady is 1968

40 steadies + 26 autos = 124116 DPM
(36 steadies + 4 serpents + 26 autos)*1.03 = 126776 DPM

It's 4 talent points for only a net increase of 2% damage. As your AP, crit, and armor penetration go up, Potent Venom is worth even less because you're trading physical shots with 0.2*RAP scaling for nature damage with 0.1*RAP scaling.

I don't see how you top 4000 RAP. The net results of our gear sets are comparable, though you have ~70 more agi, I have twice the ArP, but the RAP differences doesn't seem it's more than 50 (not logged on my toon with zero buffs to check the stats, and armory currently shows me with buffs). Full raid buffs, GoA, and the proc from my necklace, I don't think I've seen myself peak past 3500. But anyway..

It's 4 talent points for a 2% damage increase ONLY if you weren't going to take Wyvern sting in the first place. It's one of those personal things. I like it. So for me, it would be spending 3 points for a 2.14% damage increase at the additional cost of 784 mana/min. That 0.86% difference is only 1067 damage, and with the variable nature of output results, the 3% damage increase from 3/3 most likely has a +-1% to it, sort of like how our measured crit rate is 1-2% within the range displayed by our paperdoll.

If I did still keep Wyvern sting but chose to put 3 points into MT, I would average 6.6 procs from the 66 attacks. 52.8 max uptime (no overlap) of MT, and somewhere around 25s min (overlapped) uptime (mental napkin math, unsure about the equation for that)? Roughly 40s average uptime for 6% crit? So that's 4% average crit boost? IMO, a 50% crit rate vs. a 54% isn't a huge deal, since I find better returns to seek ways to improve weak points. If I am critting enough, I would want to hit harder or shoot faster or have more armor piercing etc.

Ok so I had that post, had lunch, did some homework, then took your examples and recrunched numbers, incorporating Kill Shots and splitting the damages up as crits and noncrits (instead of the average hit) based on a 40% crit rate. Sadly, it's a wash (actually the 3/3 PV choice had ~500 more damage, but that's nothing) at the increased cost of 784 mana a minute. If they change Serpent Sting to not trigger the GCD, then 3/3 PV is powerful. Otherwise, those points would go into MT or any of the utility talents in the lower tiers. Maybe PV caters to PVP-inclined players? I was hoping to mix around with shots.

alienangel · 07/21/08, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

On Steady shot - the formula has changed quite a bit.

Here's our current on Live:

A steady shot that causes base weapon damage plus [RAP * 0.2 + 150]. Causes an additional 175 against Dazed targets.

Here's Rank 1 on Beta:

A steady shot that causes unmodified weapon damage, plus ammo, plus [RAP * 0.2 + 120]. Causes an additional 175 against Dazed targets.

and the max rank, Rank 3:

A steady shot that causes unmodified weapon damage, plus ammo, plus [RAP * 0.2 + 280]. Causes an additional 175 against Dazed targets.

Hm, have you tested these out yourself?

The steadyshot formulae posted by blizzard during TBC were completely (and visibly) wrong, and I remember spending a few hours with a screeching bow shooting rats in the tram, then poring over logs on these forums to figure out what the actual formula is - might be time to break out the old bow and spreadsheet again :P

Especially whether the ammo portion is unnormalized like multishot's.

Scio · 07/21/08, 5:29 PM

Searched the thread but noone has asked this as of yet.

Since we now get just one critt rating both for casters and melee, and hunters get a talent to gain RAP equal to 100% of the intellect do WE gain ranged critt rating from int?

If not, im still rather sceptical to take spellcaster mail (irony) instead of dps leather.

With the new raidwide totems and enhanced mana regain both from pet and talents in the two main raid speccs will it really be worth it even with 100% rap?

If it was 150% then probably but just 10mana and 1rap at the cost of 2rap atleast with the current raid environment we are seeing today and from what I can see mana regen from skills and abilities will not be, as I already said, worse.

Sean · 07/21/08, 5:34 PM

No, we don't gain Ranged Crit from Int - we gain Spell Crit from Int.

And it was never "spellcaster mail" it was always "poorly itemized Hunter/Enhance Shaman mail that's worse than straight DPS leather". Though in Sunwell that's only true of the terribly designed Mail Breastplate and Legs - every other piece of Mail is equal to or better than their Leather counter part for us.

Sean · 07/21/08, 5:39 PM

Pet normalization - Yes and No. It appears that pets have been normalized within their own types.

Self and pet: 0 talents, unbuffed, max happiness

70 Cat (Ferocity):
224-257 damage, 120.2 dps
9627 AC
6069 HP

70 Tallstrider (Ferocity):
224-257 damage, 120.2 dps
9627 AC
6069 HP

70 Wind Serpent (Cunning):
204-233 damage, 109.3 dps
9293 AC
6069 HP

70 Ravager (Cunning):
204-233 damage, 109.3 dps
9293 AC
6069 HP

Looks like the difference is now based on wether they are Ferocity, Cunning, or Tenacity (didn't test any level 70 Tenacity pets, but it's a safe assumption).

Shandara · 07/21/08, 5:41 PM

According to Mania's Arcana, pet modifiers are as follows:

Tree______Health______Armor____ Damage
Cunning____+05%______+05%_____+0%
Ferocity_____+05%______+10%____+10%
Tenacity____+10%______+15%_____+0%

See Mania's Arcana

Sean · 07/21/08, 5:55 PM

Ah nice, hadn't checked there.

Explosive Shot and Misdirection:

Explosive Shot, no matter how many targets it hits, only eats 1 MD charge for the Initial Hit on the Primary target. The ticks after that and the initial hit on any mob around it do not eat charges. You can only transfer the threat from the Initial Hit on the Primary target.

Gearknight · 07/21/08, 5:59 PM

It's a shame to see Cunning getting the shaft on those numbers. The modifiers for Tenacity and Ferocity add up to 25%, but for cunning add up to only 10%, and the 0% DPS bonus certainly hurts for raiding pets. If the sporebat special indeed does what it says, and the armor reduction applies to all raid members, I'll still be toting one around to complete my DPS martyr mission and enjoy roar of recovery.

Sean · 07/21/08, 6:07 PM

Well, as it stands, if you're going for pure personal DPS the Raptor is far and away the best choice. Its special is just leagues better than anything else. The other Ferocity pets are basically irrelevant when compared to it.

And I'll have to put the same sentiments to the Spore Bat for Raid DPS boosting.

Æthien · 07/21/08, 6:33 PM

Cool, a reason for me to dump my butt ugly ravager and pick up a nice raptor from Wailing Caverns.