Tyranna

Judging a seal does not incur the GCD. However, casting a seal to to be judged does.

 

Tongaro

Yes but Judging doesn't consume the seal anymore so they can just put a seal up before the fight and be good. So chances of JoW being up most the time are very very high unless your guild raids with no pallies or very very lazy ones.

 

Ruind

While Judging doesnt consume the seal any more, the seal is still on a 30sec timer unless im mistaken. So its not a throw it up before the fight and call it a day, its throw it up ever 30 sec if your keeping up wisdom and judging every 20 sec (to keep the judgement up).

 

KraxisSingular

Perfect setups generally include three pallies, which we are more than extremely lucky to ever get. Third blessing is, save for a few encounters, Wisdom. Hence I think it is not a terribly good thing to calculate manaretunr on having three paladins in the raid and the Surv in the group (especially now that they can actually directly help whoever they happen to be grouped with). Neither is it expecting two onehanders... In most cases it isn't as easy nor as usual to get proper onehanders as twohanders.

The main point was that the argument was quite bad as it took a fairly optimal situation that most people won't see very often. It will be significantly less than that. I didn't argue that there wouldn't be JoW. But really, is it that great to see a raid fall because a certain class can't make a show? We aren't even talking not enough healers/tanks, just a class that is replaced by someone else. That is what I call failure. Indispensable classes is quite bad. Indispensable styles is good (can't go without healers/tanks/DPS).

But we also have to expect that we will be using Kill Shot from the start, it is more or less a Multishot but a bit cheaper. That should rap up the cost a fair bit. With the same calculation as before but with 8 Steadies as Kill Shots the costs will go up to 11250. And if we remove one oil, Blessing of Wisdom and Hunting Party we are down to 6432 regenerated mana. Ouch...

 

Gearknight

For 1 GCD every 50 seconds (the seal doesn't have to have 100% uptime for the judgement to), a holy pally gets 10% haste, and all dps get 3% crit and free mana. Holy paladins will JoW a lot, and if they don't, you'll find better pallies.

 

Lucid

Has anyone tried having opposing Crocolisks attack each other with Bad Attitude active just to see what would happen? Is there an internal cooldown on the effect?

 

Gurth

Besides, you can always downrank steady shot and lose what, 60 dps? fair deal imo

 

mako

You're trying to generalize your lack of x and y when it seems what you experience is an uncommon occurrence.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will say "I've never been in a 25man raid with under 3 paladins." Your guild may not have many paladins, but most raiding guilds have over one active paladin, and thus, it's standard to have multiple blessings.

If BoW is so huge for us that we need it to dps (which isn't the case), our buff priority will change and we'll take it over might or kings, or perhaps both depending on the situation.

And if you absolutely need the double mana oils, any half-decent player will have two one hand weapons. Maybe not the ideal ones, but they will have something reasonable.

 

NoxSwe

You can see Bad Attitude in its current form at Treisk's WotLK Beta Blog. The video is meant to show voley scaling and explosive shot, but you also see the corolisk's "aoe".

 

Lucid

Ah ok so according to that video there is no internal cooldown. So if you pitted two Crocolisks against each other, one of them would die almost instantly, and the other would be instantly almost dead, assuming that the attacks are processed instantly on the server. Seriously, someone should try this!

 

Conscience

Crocolisks' racial looks quite promising to me in terms of leveling, in case pets will finally hold aggro. Especially since the supposedly best raiding pet's ability is a DoT and DoTs rarely come to shine when soloing (except you are a Warlock).

 

alienangel

Since you make the offer, it would be great if someone posted about the observation someone made a few pages back that pets don't benefit from "+rating" buffs, like haste rating from drums of battle. I didn't know this, and I don't think it's commonly known. It would be a nice thing to ask them to change.

If noone else has easily available data to make such a post, I could get some screenshots over the weekend to document it and write a post for you if you want.

edit: on second thought, maybe this is not a good idea, since it really isn't a beta bug, it's a problem on live as well.

That would mean the place to report it would be the Suggestions forum though, which will likely never see dev attention for 2 years :S

 

PsyBomb

Depending on how Bad Attitude works, the Snap back could be handled like reflected damage (A la Thorns/Shield Spike/BoSanc etc). If this is the case, then it makes a lot more sense (and those crocolisks will actually have to fight)

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Ravenfire

Bad Attitude applies a damage shield and using currently implemented damage shield (Thorns, Fire Shield, etc.) mechanics damage shields can't proc other damage shields. So sadly while it would be fun to see 2 crocolisks going at it. It would be neither fast nor almost instant death for either.

 

Helot

Just to touch on the JoW pally snippet: So far it looks as though JoW scales based on the paladins AP/SD. This means that at level 80, a ret pally will be keeping up JoW for mana regen, as theirs will be superior to a holy pallies in terms of mana refunded.

Currently it's theorycrafted at ~270/proc at lvl 70, and 460/proc at lvl 80. Sweet, no?

Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

 

wvbean

Wouldn't a Ret Pally have Judgement of Crusader up? Our Prot pally typically judges wisdom.

Edit: maybe I should go read this paladin thread.

 

thedopefishlives

There's no such thing as Judgement of the Crusader, anymore. Pretty much, if you have even one paladin in the raid in Lich King, you will have Wisdom up, guaranteed.

 

orinaccio

I thought I'd share some preliminary, unscientific results from my brief testing on Dr. Boom last night using a MM build both in Live and Beta. Most of the data coming from beta testers will be BM and Survival for good reason, but for purposes of balance I'd like to share what little information I'm able to provide from a MM perspective. I'd be happy to continue sharing my input if there's any interest. Hopefully I will get a little better at testing, so if theres advice from more experienced hunters out there, I'm open to them.

Background info: Mix of T5/Season 3 & 4/badge gear. Guild is still early T5 raiding stages so the best gear I'm able to get currently are pretty much badge and arena gear.

Builds used
Live: 0/48/13 (raiding with pvp viability)
Beta: 7/51/3 (my first MM build for testing purposes. Includes Imp. Steady Shot, Chimera Shot (lulz)) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I will be trying out various MM builds but this is the one I went for first, mainly to flesh out Chimera Shot, so take my observations below with a grain of salt.

Process: DPS on Dr. Boom until OOM. Used Recount to obtain data on DPS, damage inflicted, and duration. NOTE: Multi-Shots were used, and consequently damage includes damage inflicted upon bomblets. I wasn't able to figure out how to exclude bomblet damage, so keep this caveat in mind.

LIVE: 1:1.5 Shot rotation
1244.7 DPS, doing 107,010 damage for 85.97 seconds until OOM

BETA:
Shot Rotation without Multi-Shot (Arcane & Steady)
1044 dps, doing 128,315 damage for 120 seconds until OOM

Shot Rotation using Arcane, Multi and Steady:

First attempt -
1419.3 DPS doing 122,927 damage for 86.61 seconds until OOM

Second attempt-
1479.5 dps doing 118,995 damage for 80.43 seconds until OOM

My thoughts:

Taking Multi-Shot out of the shot rotation in Beta resulted in a significant boost in my uptime given that it took the longest to go OOM (2 minutes). I did more damage with this rotation than any other rotation used in Live and Beta (which is significant because the other rotations included damage inflicted to bomblets from Multi Shots) due to the increased uptime before going OOM, but the DPS was also the worst (244 less than Live, about 400 less than other Shot rotations used in Beta).

Beta shot rotations using Arcane, Multi and Steady seemed to reflect a definite increase in DPS and moderate increase in damage from Live, but I am inclined to attribute this more to the unlinking of Steady Shots which allowed for much more comfortable and fluid manner of attack. The first attempt involved random firing of various shots as they were up from cooldown. Second attempt involved a more patterned Auto-Steady sequence with Arcane & Multi thrown in whenever they came up.

The duration of attack before going OOM did not seem to indicate that much benefit was derived from a maxed out Improved Steady Shot talent. Improved Steady Shot procced reasonably often, about 2-3 times per fight, but from my observation it allowed perhaps a few seconds longer uptime or packed in an additional 4-6 special Shots in the same length of time than would occur in Live. I would have much preferred that this talent reduce the mana cost of Multi-Shot and Steady Shot, in addition to Aimed Shot, Arcane and Kill Shot, and you'd think it would at minimum benefit Steady Shot given the name of this talent.

I hope some of you find this useful and that I didn't waste anyone's time.

 

KraxisSingular

Fair enough.
I guess it is time to step back a bit. At times I can get riled up over issues. I guess I don't want to risk us becoming even more of a bastard child of raids than we are unless we have an unusual raid setup.

Thanks to orinaccio for the test. Keep 'em coming.

 

Shandara

Log your combat and make a WWS, makes it easier for us to see and you can just exclude damage done to the bomblets.

 

KraxisSingular

Just thought of something, can't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread, but it is related to the discussion about the limited range on our pet's talented long CD specials.

With the change to raidwide totems, and the combination of Strength of Earth and Grace of Air (woot), we can now expect to see the benefit of them to a greater degree, right? But there is one little hitch. Any Enhancement Shaman is likely the one to provide the physical bufftotems, WF and SoE, and that is logical since the melee is going to be side by side with them, less chance of getting too far away from them.
However, because Blizzard is trying to push Enhancement Shamans into a more 'melee caster' role with Lava Burst and Maelstrom Weapon, chances are they won't have 30 yards on totems. That oddly enough meshes with our pet's special range. So to get that benefit we need to get closer in the vast majority of cases. Too bad for Survs with their Sniper Training as I think WF and SoE and any pet special will trump the 6% damage to the special shots most used. At least it boost the less than 30% health damage too.

We can hope Blizz might increase not only our pet's specials to 30 yards, but also totems (and talent them to 40). However I think that is too much to hope for, as 40 yard totems would be to damn easy to get under the effect of (maybe a removal of the talent then?). Hello intermediate range DPS.

 

Remf

Okay, I know they haven't implemented the 51pt BM talent in game yet, but has anyone heard or thought about how they are going to manage those special "exotic" pets .... when you respec out of the 51pt BM talent? Does it poof? Become unusable? Revert to a "normal" pet without a special skin (and if so, which??). I haven't seen any suggestions about what they have planned, or even seen the question asked, did I miss it?

 

• Tsook

I doubt they'd go to that much effort. No reason to wipe the pet entirely.

Just make exotic pets unsummonable if you don't have the talent. In game right now if you respec it automatically unsummons your pet. This is sort of how it works for warlocks who respec with a felguard out, too. So my guess is your pets gets unsummoned when you respec and from there you walk to the stable master and swap him for a pet you actually can summon.

 

Remf

Locks don't have a stable tho... so if you had multiple "exotic" pets (I haven't seen anything that suggests you'll be limited to a single one?), and spec'ed out, you'd potentially become unable to use any of them... and last time I tried you couldn't dismiss a pet you can't summon (i.e. can't dismiss from the stable) . So unless they have something clever in mind, they are going to end up with some number of oops-i'm-petless-till-respec hunters.

 

Razzmatazz

I'm working on compiling most of the information and feedback about the talents, skills and changes I've heard in this thread and putting it in an easy to read format. I was wondering if you guys would mind if I put it up in the beta forums as a kind of summary of what the raiding hunter thinks about the talents (with some important disclaimers of course, such as "I do not in fact represent Elitist Jerks or its members in any way" ). We can only hope that all the constructive criticism that's been piling up in this thread comes to Blizzard's attention that way.